For the love of god please fix Scarab Maneuverability

[space voyager]

that's how we used to play racing games back in the days (in my case on ZX Spectrum compatibles, then on PC XT, PC AT, etc)

Ah but that's different.

Then again... maybe it is not. Yes, this is how we used to play...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I wonder if Frontier simply decided not to take account of cargo weight in the SRV's handling model because it initially only carried 2t and they decided it wasn't worth incorporating? I might try to ask Tom Kewell as I'd be really curious to know for sure.

I don't think players use the SRV for cargo transportation. It's for exploration, trick moves, mission running. Not really worth modelling when most of the players either don't care or would be confused about massive differences in handling just by putting in some cargo. Maybe there is hardcore truckers who value that but I think that is more a niche.

 

[Alec Turner]

I wonder if Frontier simply decided not to take account of cargo weight in the SRV's handling model because it initially only carried 2t and they decided it wasn't worth incorporating? I might try to ask Tom Kewell as I'd be really curious to know for sure.

OK - can confirm, the only weight that's taken into consideration for the SRV's handling is the weight of its hull, not the cargo.

Seems like a pretty reasonable dispensation to code simplification in this instance. If you start worrying about every little detail, before you know it you're preserving the state you last left your bed sheets in and then the game never gets released!

 

[Greasetrap42]

If you start worrying about every little detail...

In a disussion about vehicle handling doubling the weight is just a little detail?

Average weight of a vehicle IRL is roughly 1000 kg. Fill a car with aditional 1000 kg of bricks and see how it handles.

 

[Alec Turner]

In a disussion about vehicle handling doubling the weight is just a little detail?

Average weight of a vehicle IRL is roughly 1000 kg. Fill a car with aditional 1000 kg of bricks and see how it handles.

Apparently Frontier are quite careful not to discuss cargo in "weights" these days, preferring to call then "units of cargo" so ... there's that.

Anyway, I'm just passing on the info really and trying to do so in a vaguely light hearted way ... not especially gonna defend nor condem a design decision on something that, to be honest, hasn't really bothered me for the last 8 years. It is what it is and I just thought it was interesting to know what the actual truth was.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OK - can confirm, the only weight that's taken into consideration for the SRV's handling is the weight of its hull, not the cargo.

Seems like a pretty reasonable dispensation to code simplification in this instance. If you start worrying about every little detail, before you know it you're preserving the state you last left your bed sheets in and then the game never gets released!

 

[DjVortex]

Something wrong with your foot? It didn't seem to be pressing down on the go pedal very hard

Well, you don't drive always pedal-to-the-metal in real life either, do you?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I usually drive very carefully, but well, I usually drive on exploration trips and there is long way to next service....Totaling SRV kind of messes things up.

 

[Crank Larson]

I usually drive very carefully, but well, I usually drive on exploration trips and there is long way to next service....Totaling SRV kind of messes things up.

That's why I carry two at all times.

Though now when out exploring I will take the FC with me, so replacement is no longer a concern.

 

[Frankymole]

OK - can confirm, the only weight that's taken into consideration for the SRV's handling is the weight of its hull, not the cargo.

Seems like a pretty reasonable dispensation to code simplification in this instance. If you start worrying about every little detail, before you know it you're preserving the state you last left your bed sheets in and then the game never gets released!

Is this a Star Citizen reference?

 

[DemiserofD]

It would be nice if you could lock your rear wheels and switch to pure front wheel drive. Less maneuverability but better high-speed stability.

The problem, from what I can tell, is how the wheels interact with the ground. In real life, if a pair of wheels has more weight on them, the vehicle will want to tip away from there, because it's unstable. This puts the weight back on the other wheels, and you keep going normally. IE, if you are turning left, all the weight goes on the right wheels, but if you let go of the steering wheel, the vehicle will automatically straighten out.

But the SRV inexplicably inverts this. The more weight on a set of wheels, the more stable they become, causing an exponential, incorrectible increase in traction on those wheels, causing inevitable spinning out. This would be like if you were turning right and let go of the wheel, the vehicle would immediately turn MORE right. I'm PRETTY sure this completely violates the laws of physics, by the way.

This results in truly bizarre behavior, like if you want to land from a jump without spinning out, you should land with the FRONT wheels (despite all logic saying that doing so should make you tumble head over heels!) because it will yank you towards the center!

 

[Alec Turner]

Is this a Star Citizen reference?

It is indeed!
shhh tho - we're not really supposed to talk about that outside of its own forum thread!

 

[Mika L]

I thought a picture made more sense than trying to explain.
Hope it all works for you too!

Thanks for the tip! Now I have tried those joystick bindings, and they work much better than keyboard inputs. I practiced keeping the Scarab in the air while moving forward, and landing it in one piece, but I still need more practice.

I played over 2.5 years without asking advice for this. I would have been flyving happily for long already if I had asked earlier.

 

[Fizzatron]

Kudos to OP for editing the post. Drive Assist Off should be the default.

 

[Chaparral]

To recap ...

The Scarab SRV is a difficult vehicle to control and takes skill and practice to master. General consensus is that it behaves better with Drive Assist turned off although personal experience can vary, especially if you're using digital throttle inputs and like the idea of setting the SRV's forward speed rather than having direct input to the wheel speed. The vehicle's speed (which is displayed in m/s) can be misleading (i.e. 30m/s is actually over 100km/h) so it's not entirely surprising that it's difficult to control at full throttle, especially since we're typically driving on low-g worlds with icy surfaces. One simple solution to control problems is to just slow down until your skills have improved.

There's currently a bug applicable to driving with Drive Assist turned on where mousewheel and/or digital input(?) can cause the SRV's speed to suddenly leap uncontrollably to maximum. You can find further forum threads about that here, here and here and also a bug tracker issue that you can contribute to here.

There's a certain amount of resentment towards the SRV racing community who campaigned quite hard to keep the Scarab's handling as it had been in Horizons after pre-launch testing in the Odyssey beta revealed it had been messed with considerably. There's no evidence to suggest that Frontier ever intended for it to release in that state but regardless, when it finally launched handling had been "largely" restored (although it still has an unnecsssary self righting mechanism which means, for example, that it's now difficult if not impossible to pop the SRV onto its rear in the "praying" position). There's also the possibility that the handling changes we discovered prematurely pre-launch (via the challenge scenario) had been left in as a way for FD to try out characteristics we'd eventually see in the Scorpion. Some commanders still feel that the Scarab should be thought of primarily as a ground hugging ATV but, whether by accident or design, it's proven to excel at bounding across the landscape using its boosters in a style known colloquially as "flyving" and I personally think it's unwise to try and denounce that.

Many players actively engaged in these discussions feel that the current Drive Assist option isn't that useful and that it would be better repurposed so that Drive Assist off leaves the SRV with the Horizons handling model while turning Drive Assist on employs the RL equivalent of things like active differentials, ABS and a more active rear wheel steering mechanism to give the Scarab a more refined and less sporty performance model.

Loading up the SRV with cargo does not affect its weight or handling, nor does having the cargo scoop deployed. The SRV's shields do not protect the vehicle against ground collisions and, unless engaged in combat scenarios, it's therefore pointless putting any pips to SYS and drivers are advised to keep 4 pips in ENG at all times (unless actively attempting to restrict the vehicle's performance, either in an attempt to keep the beast under control or to abide by the regulations of specifc, more ground-born, race variants).

I suppose it makes a fine toy for those interested in treating a land vehicle as a jump jet acrobat, but for the bottom tier transport vehicle responsible for scanning, prospecting, running guardian ruins, and getting a player to and from exobiologiy scans, it is not a user friendly rover.

You have to remember that it is the first rover (like a sidewinder) a player will be introduced to, and use as transport.

From a player progression game design perspective - do you really think this should be the starter vehicle? Do you think it should be the only land vehicle equipped with a scanner?

I have asbolutely completed dozens of data runs at science bases, requiring hops, glides, and in air pirouettes - and for those specific carnival ride designed missions, the above ground and skipping maneverability is necessary if not enjoyable.

However, for the bottom end gunt task of getting from A to B, scanning along the way, without having to deal with erratic slide outs, tumbles, stops (this rock will stop you while that one won't, or this has renderered in and this hasn't) the Scarab is a finicky pain in the neck.

Heck, introduce a sports version with the characteristics you love so much and a basic grinder for players that just want to get the job done.

Listing all of the special ways a player can skill up and learn to cope with the quirks of the Scarab, reminds me of all of the FA off bullies, or the gankers blaming people for leaving Open.

The game is in a very mature state with mild updates to be forthcoming, and I don't see any changes for the Scarab on the horizon. Just know that your passionate and successful pursuit of preserving your toy left a lot of players out in the cold.

 

[Jack Winter]

It might also be best not to consider the mass and momentum of the vehicle, especially when we drive on 0.01G worlds.

In the end it's a game, and the fun we have playing is more important than reality..

 

[Alec Turner]

do you really think this should be the starter vehicle?

yes

Do you think it should be the only land vehicle equipped with a scanner?

no

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In a disussion about vehicle handling doubling the weight is just a little detail?

Average weight of a vehicle IRL is roughly 1000 kg. Fill a car with aditional 1000 kg of bricks and see how it handles.

From a gameplay perspective: yes. You always need to assess what you want to achieve and simplify what isn't needed. Games aren't about realism, they are smoke and mirrors to make believe. In the SRV case it was deemed to not simulate the cargo wait for gameplay purpose (accessibility, ease of use e.g.) to have a nimble car to drive around.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

OK - can confirm, the only weight that's taken into consideration for the SRV's handling is the weight of its hull, not the cargo.

Seems like a pretty reasonable dispensation to code simplification in this instance. If you start worrying about every little detail, before you know it you're preserving the state you last left your bed sheets in and then the game never gets released!

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Thanks for the tip! Now I have tried those joystick bindings, and they work much better than keyboard inputs. I practiced keeping the Scarab in the air while moving forward, and landing it in one piece, but I still need more practice.

I played over 2.5 years without asking advice for this. I would have been flyving happily for long already if I had asked earlier.

Escaping the gravity of a landable body is the ultimate SRV challenge.