Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Viajero]

I take up a loan of §1000, open a shop and buy little Viajero figurines. Agony and many friends can't get enough of them and I am able to generate §5 per §1 of expense. I earn profit. I pay dividend on that profit.
Technically I need a bit of equity to pay a dividend in the first place, but you need equity for founding a company in general.
The liability doesn't matter. If I earn well, Agony is gonna gladly prolong that loan if I ask.

If I understood you correctly in your exemple you are actually selling a released product, figurines. There is nothing wrong with companies having at the same time both debt funding and release product sales, happens every day in most companies that sell actual released products or services. The problem with crowdfund is that by definition you have not released anything yet, no viajero figurines.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I take up a loan of §1000, open a shop and buy little Viajero figurines. Agony and many friends can't get enough of them and I am able to generate §5 per §1 of expense. I earn profit. I pay dividend on that profit.
Technically I need a bit of equity to pay a dividend in the first place, but you need equity for founding a company in general.
The liability doesn't matter. If I earn well, Agony is gonna gladly prolong that loan if I ask.

Then Agony starts a refund sub.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

If I understood you correctly in your exemple you are actually selling a released product, figurines. There is nothing wrong with companies having at the same time both debt funding and release product sales, happens every day in most companies that sell actual released products or services. The problem with crowdfund is that by definition you have not released anything yet, no viajero figurines.

But Star Citizen sells a product. You say so yourself.
Or do you mean the original crowdfund idea: I have cool figurine idea, but need money. Gimme money and you get figurine and case closed?
CIG left the crowdfund path when they started selling ship packages etc. Today "crowdfund" means probably more like: "financed by idiots who get no say in anything without any accountability for us".

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Then Agony starts a refund sub.

Promptly Agony receives an offer he simply can't refuse.

 

[Viajero]

But Star Citizen sells a product. You say so yourself.
Or do you mean the original crowdfund idea: I have cool figurine idea, but need money. Gimme money and you get figurine and case closed?
CIG left the crowdfund path when they started selling ship packages etc. Today "crowdfund" means probably more like: "financed by idiots who get no say in anything without any accountability for us".

Ah yes. It is selling a released product indeed now, from around 2016 or so to be a bit more precise, when it transitioned from crowdfund to an early access release, as per CIG own statements.

Before that, during crowdfund, CIG could not book earned revenues or issue dividends. Now it can.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Ah yes. It is selling a product indeed now, from around 2016 or so, when it transitioned from crowdfund to early access, as per CIG own statements.

And would you say the SC crowdfund money is treated as liability? I have an inkling Robbers and his gang would rather treat it as equity...

 

[Viajero]

And would you say the SC crowdfund money is treated as liability?

At the time yes. But that money transitioned from deferred to earned revenue when SC released sometime around 2016. Now, whether players that paid that money are happy with the current result and may feel entitled to a refund because of the crappy and broken state of the product, that is a different story.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

@Mole HD grabbed the meat hammer from the rack. The people had started AGAIN talking about balance sheets despite his clear advice against it. Well, this would definitely be the last time - all he had to do is make sure they didn't see it coming.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

At the time yes. But that money transition from deferred to earned revenue when SC released in 2016. Now, whether players that paid that money are happy with the current result and may feel entitled to a refund because of the crappy and broken state of the product, that is a different story.

What an easy way to turn other people's money to your own money.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Promptly Agony receives an offer he simply can't refuse.

 

[Fizzatron]

I completely disagree with your idea that Liz Holmes was working on anything "on good faith". What she was selling was a complete and total fantasy, and she knew it. Intentions and feelings have nothing to do with it. The cold stark reality was nothing she said could be done, she knew it and taking money on the "off chance" some miracle occurred and the solution presented itself is the very definition of a scam.

Fair enough, I haven't been following enough to know the full details of what she actually was trying to pull. Though I purposely didn't make a judgement call about that, as really the point was to convey the perspective of how the story was sold to backers, who evidently, and naturally, believed it was a sincere operation.

 

[Viajero]

... the point was to convey the perspective of how the story was sold to backers, who evidently, and naturally, believed it was a sincere operation.

Yes, I agree. And at the start that was true, perhaps. But at some point after the beginning, much like with Holmes, Roberts and his management team must have realized that the technical issues they have been having for over a decade made most of their promises, both dates and content, impracticable. And yet they both continued to misrepresent it all, and sell it all, unabated.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Well, my dear Viajero - when your core audience consists of people who willingly put plastic bags over their heads, selling them anything whatsoever is a no-brainer, as these people clearly have no brains.

 

[Fizzatron]

Someone in the replies basically says if that is what you're focus on SC is about, then of course SF isn't going to scratch your itch, but for those players whose itch is scratched by:

Space or planet exploration
Ship battles and on-foot battles with NPCs
Ship building
Base building
etc, etc...
And a released product,

Then SF is going to deliver, while all SC can do is deliver dreams.

Thank you for your sacrifice in reading all of that. I hit more and saw the wall, then scrolled to the "Sir, this is a Wendy's" comment and took my leave.

 

[Ed02349]

Yes, I agree. And at the start that was true, perhaps. But at some point after the beginning, much like with Holmes, Roberts and his management team must have realized that the technical issues they have been having for over a decade made most of their promises, both dates and content, impracticable. And yet they both continued to misrepresent it all, and sell it all, unabated.

I'm more willing to belileve Elizabeth Holms really wanted to do what she set out to do. She had an idea ad was naive enough to think she could do it without studying or experience.

With CIG and Chris Roberts, he started by passing off an in engine render done by cryteck staff as his own work and the game's foundation when in reality it was a bunch of 3D assets only good for animation.

 

[Fizzatron]

That said, I personally think its a long time before CiG are going to be in danger of anything close to collapsing/flopping,

If the writing is ever on the wall, expect them to cut and run before you can say Idris.

 

[VR Golgot]

All told SC is a great success.

It just has miner issues.

 

[Factabulous]

All told SC is a great success.

It just has miner issues.

It's the fact he's always surprised - every time

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

If the writing is ever on the wall, expect them to cut and run before you can say Idris.

All joking aside, do they need to? Its a Ltd Liability Company IIRC...

 

[StuartGT]

All joking aside, do they need to? Its a Ltd Liability Company IIRC...

There are at least a dozen Limited Liability Companies in the hollywood-accounting chain of RSI/CIG spread across multiple countries and legal jurisdictions