[POLL] PvE, PvP, PvAll - What is the playstyle you want in ED?

[Barns]

Perseus, I suspect that's one thing we do agree on, I mean we wouldn't both be here bashing keyboards at each other with passion on this subject if we didn't care to make this as fun a game as possible for as many as possible

And if I accidentally slip into your PvP galaxy by mistake I'll be sure to flip my wings before you disintegrate me

 

[Wolframium]

@ Wolframium. No offence taken or intended. You want me and everyone else in the 'all' group to play as we want but NOT if that means attacking another player for whatever reason. Isn't this controlling 'our' game style? Check for contradictions, friend. You seem to be trying to justify the very things you accused me of! I'll leave it at that.

I detect no contradiction, as you would still get the opportunity to play pirate with those who wish to live the PvP experience and, if this poll is any indication, there's bound to be more than enough for you to have fun with. Your gaming style wouldn't be affected in the slightest, caro paisà .

Competition, as long as it’s not really competitive. Danger as long as it’s safe. Not for me, I’m afraid.

But see, some of us don't particularly care about the competitive side of the game. Myself, I get all the competition one could wish for in real life: believe me, working in an italian university in 2013 is a constant struggle for survival. I won't bore you with details, suffice to say that when you're trying to make a name for yourself in a particular field while american and chinese groups are working on the same research thread as you with budgets two or three orders of magnitude greater than yours, you get all the competition you could wish for, and then some.

When I get home at night or during weekends, competition is among the last things I want: what I want is mellow, relaxing fun. I want to grab a beer, sit back, relax, do a mission or two with a friend or relative and pat myself on the back for finding a profitable trade route or a rich precious metals vein on some obscure asteroid in a remote unexplored system. The thought of permanently being on high alert and to constantly have to watch my back just to stay afloat is almost enough to drive me away from the game.

I realize the gaming style I just described is not everyone's idea of fun, but I believe I am making a legitimate request when I ask that my boring, uneventful gaming session not be spoiled by players whose idea of entertainment coincides with making other people's ED experience miserable for whatever reason.

Lastly, I believe two excellent (perhaps equivalent?) solutions have been proposed in this thread: the "groups" solution and the "flag" solution. Everyone could go home happy and play the game they like, the way they like. To me, it sounds like win-win. I hope the developers will consider implementing them.

 

[Perseus]

@Barns Dude, I wouldn't do that unless you had an incredibly high bounty (which meant you were either a griefer or successful Pirate) or you were the target of a mission, in which case there would be a time limit for completion.
I understand peoples concern over having hard work destroyed or enjoyment ruined. I don't want to grief anyone and I honestly don't think people who like PvP want that either. I'm sure mindless griefing will be punished. Let's wait and see what the game is like. It could be 6 months after game release before players establish communities of any sort. I might be asking to join with you!
As it is at the moment, I'm excited by the thought of playing Elite with the rest of the fans. I'm anticipating the thrill and excitement so I suppose I'm protective about an open (dangerous)game area. In reality, time will tell.

 

[Perseus]

@ Wolframium. Ho capito amico.
I'm sure the game will accommodate all playing styles.

 

[Vladomir]

I agree and the survey is missing this option!

I've been playing online games before there were PC's and been ganked (interesting word never saw it before today - guess my age is showing LOL) and lost everything - it isn't fun... and I've quit playing games because of it. I have also seen what should have been really great games ruined because of it!

If these types are allowed to exist they should be kept in their own little part of the 'Verse and have it clearly marked with appropriate warnings for those foolish enough to enter. There should also be serious and rapid enforcement/penalties for those who try to play that type of game outside of that area!

I enjoy playing against real people AND well designed AI, so a mix would be great - but those who will be jerks have to be contained or controlled in such a way as to keep the game fun for everyone - otherwise they will kill it...

I hate to say this as my first post but this post relates to me! I'm actually hesitant to pledge/buy this game ATM because if this turns out to be another eve count me out! This game has caught my attention because they say it can be played solo or possibly with friends... Great but porting into some system only to be "ganked" by one of the hundreds of eve players sure to come to this game hell bent on turning into another eve will drive me out just like they did to me in eve. Sure people like that style of game play and that's fine.. I don't. Maybe my age is showing through but I got little time for people gettin in my face hah! I play games to have fun and pvp has never been that fun to me but then again I did grow up playing Atari 2600 and the Tandy 80. I'll be watching and reading maybe ill pull the trigger on this game.

 

[Ende]

"Oh look its that thread again"

lol


It looks like the PvP versus PvE argument has become the most discussed part of ED. I personally enjoy both immensely. If theyre done correctly then they are both fantastic gaming experiences.

It saddens me that a small minority of people have decided that they hate PvP, and by that i mean they dont like it in any game. The truth is that PvP can be great fun when its put into a game correctly. I can think of many games where the PvP is surprisingly awesome and a few others where the PvP is punishing and a hinderance.

So all i ask is for people not to lose sight of the fact that PvP is not necessarily a painful experience. The vast majority, and i mean VAST MAJORITY, of games out there PvP is a fantastic part of the game simply because the devs of that game inserted it correctly into that game.

Im very sure that Frontier will get it right and PvP will be a great part of ED, lets bear in mind we have an extensive playtesting of beta ahead of us. And that means any issues can be addressed early on

 

[Barns]

It saddens me that a small minority of people have decided that they hate PvP...

Sorry, not "small minority". Decent chunk of the potential population. Stop pretending like PvP is the "mainstream" playstyle.

So all i ask is for people not to lose sight of the fact that PvP is not necessarily a painful experience. The vast majority, and i mean VAST MAJORITY, of games out there PvP is a fantastic part of the game simply because the devs of that game inserted it correctly into that game.

No, it doesn't have to be painful (and that comes down to death penalties, which still seem quite harsh to me for a PvP world - if I only lost say 5mins time and I'd be back where I was before being killed with all the same ship and equipment and cargo, I wouldn't worry about PvP so much). PvP also doesn't have to be required. Make it completely optional and great, PvP away. Just don't mix up the PvP with other content and thus make it required. In the context of ED, don't make PvP the main way to get access to interesting frontier systems otherwise you're effectively saying "don't want to PvP? stay in core systems" - and that's Eve and it sucks. I want frontier systems to be dangerous, yes, but dangerous due to NPC pirates, not PvPers.

Im very sure that Frontier will get it right and PvP will be a great part of ED, lets bear in mind we have an extensive playtesting of beta ahead of us. And that means any issues can be addressed early on

Let's hope they do get it right, for all our playstyles. And make it part of ED, not the "main route to success" like most of the PvPers seem to want to make it, by forcing PvP on anyone who ventures out of the core systems.

I've still to hear a good argument against having separate PvP and PvE servers, by the way. Any PvPer up for providing one? Splitting the user base - so what, if you're so sure PvEers are a "small minority", you'd end up with most players in your PvP server, right? No great loss to you? So what's the problem with having the option?

The real reason it seems to me must be either :

i) you know most players will choose PvE and the PvP servers will be underpopulated, or

ii) you want lots of PvErs in your PvP world as easy prey.

If you have better reasons for not wanting separate PvE and PvP worlds, please provide!

 

[Tiwaz]

I never said they were superior. What was weak was your attempt to detract from the difficulty of achieving Elite. You implied that how it was achieved was unimportant and now, in your latest post, you wish to indicate that there is more kudos in destroying AI entities.

It is irrelevant how it is achieved. And I pointed out how ridiculous your assessment that against humans it must be "the thing", by pointing out simply that AI can easily overcome vast majority of humans out there.

I disagree. Human psychology smarts at being bested and all the more so by another sentience. On the flip side, working with another living pilot has more weighting than with an AI. This is in addition to the personality of a living player, something altogether unpredictable and maybe threatening but ALWAYS rewarding.
Competition, as long as it’s not really competitive. Danger as long as it’s safe. Not for me, I’m afraid.
Can I have my cookie now?

This was not about you enjoying trying to humiliate someone who is not on same level, this is about difficulty of achieving Elite status which you held as some kind of yardstick.

You claim that getting it in PvP server is greater achievement, I call it bull****. AI opponents can easily be massively more dangerous and difficult opponents than humans, thus making achieving Elite against them greater achievement in terms of raw skill.

As for fighting other humans being rewarding. Rubbish. ats and griefers who do populate PvP scene in great numbers make nothing "rewarding".

You are happy in PvP-world? Good for you! Enjoy.
But do not come telling me that my chosen form of fun is somehow inferior to yours.

 

[Ende]

Sorry, not "small minority". Decent chunk of the potential population. Stop pretending like PvP is the "mainstream" playstyle.

Im saying there is a small amount of people who will always hate PvP regardless of how its ever done. theyve already made thier mind up years ago they hate PvP and they cannot be swayed on that decision.

It looks to me like u might well fall into that category.

No, it doesn't have to be painful (and that comes down to death penalties, which still seem quite harsh to me for a PvP world - if I only lost say 5mins time and I'd be back where I was before being killed with all the same ship and equipment and cargo, I wouldn't worry about PvP so much). PvP also doesn't have to be required. Make it completely optional and great, PvP away. Just don't mix up the PvP with other content and thus make it required. In the context of ED, don't make PvP the main way to get access to interesting frontier systems otherwise you're effectively saying "don't want to PvP? stay in core systems" - and that's Eve and it sucks. I want frontier systems to be dangerous, yes, but dangerous due to NPC pirates, not PvPers.

All of this appears to be to show u dont want PvP at all in the game, or at the very least there must be an option to turn it off totally.

U definitely fall into the category im talking about... why dont u want to even give it a try?

Why not have a go at it on beta and see how it fits into the game before making such rigid opinions on PvP in ED?

Let's hope they do get it right, for all our playstyles. And make it part of ED, not the "main route to success" like most of the PvPers seem to want to make it, by forcing PvP on anyone who ventures out of the core systems.

I've still to hear a good argument against having separate PvP and PvE servers, by the way. Any PvPer up for providing one? Splitting the user base - so what, if you're so sure PvEers are a "small minority", you'd end up with most players in your PvP server, right? No great loss to you? So what's the problem with having the option?

The real reason it seems to me must be either :

i) you know most players will choose PvE and the PvP servers will be underpopulated, or

ii) you want lots of PvErs in your PvP world as easy prey.

If you have better reasons for not wanting separate PvE and PvP worlds, please provide!

All of this is unjustified concerns imo.

Ur basing your knowledge of PvP on a very few games where PvP is harsh and unforgiving...like Eve for example.

ED isnt even gonna be on 'servers' in the traditional sense, this is a consequence of the ED universe being so massive.

This PvE versus PvP isnt even a real way to discuss ED, its a creation from Wow players. They seem to think there is a massive divide between PvP and PvE as if theyre somehow at odds with each other. The truth is that it isnt. They actually go hand in hand in many functions of a successful game.

Alot of people think that PvP is simply being in direct competition with each other in some form of combat... well it isnt. Its often a way to build relationships within games by asking players to work together to achieve an objective.

The entire point of ED is that its going to be set in a universe inhabited by other real people and thats the exact reason ED is such an exciting prospect. If people want a solo game then go back and play the originals, this game isnt for you.

Ive said before, if people just want an original Elite game with better graphics then go play Elite. I have confidence in David Braben pushing the envelope of gaming and delivering something truly epic, something which will force the world of gamers to turn their head and take notice. A remake of single-player Elite will not achieve that...

 

[Tiwaz]

If you have better reasons for not wanting separate PvE and PvP worlds, please provide!

They will say it is "fun". Apparently quite a number of pro-PvP people just do not grasp that people who dislike PvP may quite well have been involved in PvP quite a bit and find it everything but fun.

 

[Tiwaz]

Im saying there is a small amount of people who will always hate PvP regardless of how its ever done. theyve already made thier mind up years ago they hate PvP and they cannot be swayed on that decision.

Reality is that when we look at variety of games, servers with PvP flag are much emptier than ones with PvE flag.

Been there, seen it in quite a few games and I just do not find it fun.
PvP simply requires me to invest too much time and effort to it to make it fun.
I, and quite a few others, may not have that amount of time or interest in it.

All of this appears to be to show u dont want PvP at all in the game, or at the very least there must be an option to turn it off totally.

U definitely fall into the category im talking about... why dont u want to even give it a try?

Because no matter how PvP is made, we have found that not to be anything we enjoy.
What makes you think we have not tried PvP?

All of this is unjustified concerns imo.

Ur basing your knowledge of PvP on a very few games where PvP is harsh and unforgiving...like Eve for example.

Ultima Online, Anarchy Online, Eve, LOTRO, SWG and whatnot. Nowhere was PvP interesting.

This PvE versus PvP isnt even a real way to discuss ED, its a creation from Wow players. They seem to think there is a massive divide between PvP and PvE as if theyre somehow at odds with each other. The truth is that it isnt. They actually go hand in hand in many functions of a successful game.

No they do not.

Alot of people think that PvP is simply being in direct competition with each other in some form of combat... well it isnt. Its often a way to build relationships within games by asking players to work together to achieve an objective.

THAT IS PVE! Grasp what those letters mean. Player versus ENVIRONMENT (may include multiple players).
Player versus PLAYER. PvP specifically refers to something where X amount of players are fighting.

PvE contains all that human interaction and whatnot, it just does no include any violent Player against Player action.

 

[Ende]

Reality is that when we look at variety of games, servers with PvP flag are much emptier than ones with PvE flag.

Looks like we have another Wow player *sigh*

Show me any other game which has PvE and PvP servers apart from Wow?

All of the other games u listed have PvP within the game itself without separate PvP servers.

And for the record one of the highest populated realms EU on Wow is a PvP realm. Its not true theyre the lowest populated realms.

Because no matter how PvP is made, we have found that not to be anything we enjoy.
What makes you think we have not tried PvP?

That people have actually admitted on this very forums within other threads that they are simply totally against PvP and they dont want to even try it. Im not saying that goes for everyone against it but there is certainly alot of people in that category on these forums.

THAT IS PVE! Grasp what those letters mean. Player versus ENVIRONMENT (may include multiple players).
Player versus PLAYER. PvP specifically refers to something where X amount of players are fighting.

Errrm no.

There are plenty of games where teamplay PvP is the mainstay of the PvP within that game, GW2 for exaple and the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online is doing that too.

Sure PvE can be about teaming up to achieve an objective but PvP is exactly the same in alot of games.

PvE contains all that human interaction and whatnot, it just does no include any violent Player against Player action.

It looks to me like the main reason people are against PvP is simply because theyre afraid of getting ganked... i trust Frontier to design the game so this is not an issue.

Simple as that.

 

[Tiwaz]

Looks like we have another Wow player *sigh*

Tried that too, but again you are radically wrong.

Show me any other game which has PvE and PvP servers apart from Wow?

SWTOR

All of the other games u listed have PvP within the game itself without separate PvP servers.

And out of the ONE alone FORCES pvp. In SWG you could choose if you wanted to PvP. UO enabled you to not participate in PvP by remaining in Trammel. Can't remember how AO worked out.
LOTRO has no PvP except in specific PvP instance.

And for the record one of the highest populated realms EU on Wow is a PvP realm. Its not true theyre the lowest populated realms.

Actually it is true. Because each PvE populated WoW server is populated to at least "medium" level, while PvP servers have large number of "low" populated servers.

That people have actually admitted on this very forums within other threads that they are simply totally against PvP and they dont want to even try it. Im not saying that goes for everyone against it but there is certainly alot of people in that category on these forums.

So?
Are you telling they have no right to say they have zero interest in PvP and no intention to try either?

Errrm no.

Errm yes.

There are plenty of games where teamplay PvP is the mainstay of the PvP within that game, GW2 for exaple and the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online is doing that too.

If it has players fighting players, it is PvP.
If it has players fighting non-players, it is PvE

Sure PvE can be about teaming up to achieve an objective but PvP is exactly the same in alot of games.

No it is not. PvP by default refers to players fighting players one way or another.

It looks to me like the main reason people are against PvP is simply because theyre afraid of getting ganked... i trust Frontier to design the game so this is not an issue.

It is not fear, it is reality actually. PvP always comes with huge dose of griefers.
And as said, people are against PvP because it is not FUN. And no, it is NOT your right to tell me what is fun or not.
As for design, you can design all you want but unless you make PvP impossible, people will find ways to abuse holes in design.

 

[Ende]

@ Tiwaz

Im not gonna break down your post cos its getting messy

U clearly havent done much PvP in games cos your opinion of it is very warped. I can assure that in many games have PvP group play, it is not your narrow view of 1 person against 1. Therefore when i say that there are plenty of games where PvP has teamplay to achieve objectives its true. Likewise PvE also uses teamplay to achieve objectives... whether u like it or not theyre not so different in many cases.

If u dont like PvP thats cool by me, i also dont want ED to be like Eve. I dont like a universe created simplky for the survival of the fittest which has done nothing except promote antisocial play. Im only different to you in as much as i trust Frontier to implement a PvP system which doesnt give any room for gankers or griefers to exist.

The sad truth is that ALL online games have their share of idiots and im sure that ED will be no different. If u dont like playing with other people then please avoid ED, Braben has stated clearly that hes taking Elite to the next level. And that doesnt mean its Elite with better graphics and more of the same content. Hes pushing the boundaries to deliver a living and breathing universe which is purely based upon the people that inhabit it.

Im just making the point that this discussion with hatred towards PvP is pretty pointless because theyve already decided how the game will work and PvP has a place within the game. All u can do is work towards helping the devs install PvP in a way which doesnt hinder your gameplay.

Although it must be said if u want a solo game u will probably be disappointed cos PvP will be in there somewhere.

 

[Barns]

PvP teamplay is still PvP though. It's got nothing to do with team size, it's about vs player (s) or vs NPCs.

Also, PvP can't be too central a part of the design as it has to function as a fully working fun playable single player offline game, too.

Any response about why so adamant you wouldn't want a PvE server option? What is the problem with providing the option for those that want it?

 

[Ende]

Any response about why so adamant you wouldn't want a PvE server option? What is the problem with providing the option for those that want it?

The basic answer is because ED isnt gonna work in the traditional MMO sense of servers.

The ED is going to be one universe sitting on many servers using procedural programming. Alot of instancing and a collosal amount of universe areas which can be populated by players.

Therefore i dont think ED will release multi versions of the same game all on different servers. Its going to be one universe for everyone to play in, and only have one probably has something to do with the vastness of the universe.

 

[jabokai]

Therefore i dont think ED will release multi versions of the same game all on different servers. Its going to be one universe for everyone to play in, and only have one probably has something to do with the vastness of the universe.

But, basically, if Frontier can add the option fairly easily at their end you would have no objections?

 

[Barns]

Easy to solve technically ; each player sets PvP or not flag at character creation, and that defines which instance you end up in for a system. Am instance either has PvP enabled or not on creation and there would be two (or more when required) for a system, one with PvP, one without.

Basically simulates two servers in terms of player partitioning without having actual separate servers.

Anyway that's a technical reason you have against it, assume it's possible to achieve, why wouldn't you WANT them to provide it?

 

[Ende]

But, basically, if Frontier can add the option fairly easily at their end you would have no objections?

I dont have any objections whatsoever about creating options for how u want to play as long as it doesnt detract from the creation of a realistic and exciting universe full of real players.

Easy to solve technically ; each player sets PvP or not flag at character creation, and that defines which instance you end up in for a system. Am instance either has PvP enabled or not on creation and there would be two (or more when required) for a system, one with PvP, one without.

There were threads months ago on giving the player themselves the option to tag up for PvP or not and i remember it being very much decided it was a bad idea for various reasons. Mainly because players could flag/unflag at will and this actually adds dramatically to the armory of a griefer!

I personally dont want to share the same space with players who cannot be attacked in any circumstance. I want the Elite universe to be realistic.

There are plenty of previous discussions showing how going banzai in the Elite universe would screw u up if u want to go back and read them. It stems from Frontier installing massive penalties for attacking other players... this is totally possible and i say it again, wait for beta to see exactly how Frontier propose to do this!

I repeat... this wont be Eve and Frontier will damn well work hard to ensure its not Eve. We dont want that type of game thanks!

Anyway that's a technical reason you have against it, assume it's possible to achieve, why wouldn't you WANT them to provide it?

To summarise in a nutshell... i want a multiplayer populated universe which has the option to play solo, NOT a singleplayer game with the option to play with mates.

 

[Barns]

Flag for PvP or not at character creation was the idea I floated. Make it permanent choice.

And the penalties for attacking players only apply in civilised space, right? I want to be able to go to the frontier as well without PvP.

You would still get your multiplayer populated universe even if you lost the PvE only players, wouldn't you? And everyone you saw would be attackable.