General Need Nerf Fragment Cannon

[Adam_Aster]

Frags becoming more common might make large ship pilots consider more balanced resistances, as it will actually help against all those incendiary frags, rather than mostly worrying about plasma.

Yes, I have been thinking the same thing and already taken incendiary off of half the frags currently in use because I find it will provide better damage all around if this is the case.

The class 6 PP and PD mean the Python Mk II cannot easily boat plasma; hence the frag setups.

Kinetics have always been the go to solution for asthmatic power distributors. I see a lot of people using multicannons for the same reasons, even before the Pmk2 was a thing, though they don't usually end up doing the same amount of damage as frags, not because frags are OP but because people seem to not know how to use multicannons properly and end up firing when outside of falloff range, not having good range control.

And yeah, this is fine because you still have to screw up, badly, to not be able to escape from even comically overwhelming firepower in a Corvette. The best recourse against some opponents is to leave...and optionally come back with a ship more suited to fighting them. It's not like a frag Mk II doesn't have weaknesses of it's own.

I get the feeling they don't want to have to leave, which while I can understand that, some times you just lose. Rock beating scissors doesn't mean we have to nerf rock, frags have always been the go to vs big ships and I hope they will continue to be. If you want to win a fight vs a ship with frags you have to first be equipped with weapons that can outrange them(rails,MC, PA[barely but TLB helps], many options) and then be able to fly well enough to be able to do so. (you know this already I am sure, Morbad but this is for people who may not).

In the end, everybody's right. Why agonize and improve your combat and balance weapons. Just do not fly on large ships in open mode and take FDL, Python2 (even Mamba) with frags and that's it.

Eventually you can put Frags on big ships and it will allow you to give more pips in the shield. Go for it.

Why bother learning how to fly to counter a specific weapon that gives me trouble when I can just ask for that weapon to be adjusted to a level that will then allow me to just keep jousting into them, not bothering to put any effort into range control or situational awareness because I can just lean on my 10k MJ(yes people do use them in pvp this is the GO TO set up for big ships in pvp actually because PA are meta and PA do mostly absolute damage, which those resistances are not going to help with as much as a high MJ rating) shield and expect myself to never have to improve? By all means put frags on your big ship if you want to, I sometimes put 2 paci on my Cutter, I would be hesitant to put them on anything slow like the Vette though, you are going to get very little use out of them compared to other options.

Big ships are countered by frags, this is intentional, there are ways to fly around it, there are weapons that can be put on big ships that help to counter the flight style of frags. I hate to use the term but this is quite literally a skill issue. Yes you are seeing more people use frags right now thanks to the release of the Pmk2, but this is not because either the frags or the Pmk2 are OP, it is because the Pmk2's core internals favor kinetic weapons that take very little distro draw, and frags fit that requirement perfectly. Plenty other options to be used though, but of course youtube builds and what not are going to make some things more popular. The thing is though, if you know why/how a youtube build is made in the first place, you are going to be able to do infinitely better than any one who just goes and copy that build not knowing anything about how that build functions and what its strengths, synergies and weaknesses are.

 

[SergMx]

I get the feeling they don't want to have to leave, which while I can understand that, some times you just lose. Rock beating scissors doesn't mean we have to nerf rock, frags have always been the go to vs big ships and I hope they will continue to be. If you want to win a fight vs a ship with frags you have to first be equipped with weapons that can outrange them(rails,MC, PA, many options) and then be able to fly well enough to be able to do so. (you know this already I am sure, Morbad but this is for people who may not).

Yeah, yeah. Especially if your ship is slow and you can't control the distance.

Yes you are seeing more people use frags right now thanks to the release of the Pmk2,

I've seen this long before, a lot of FDL's and even in AX combat put up a bunch of frags.

I wrote above if they think that frags are fine then no problem.
I have not changed my opinion !

 

[Adam_Aster]

I've seen this long before, a lot of FDL's and even in AX combat put up a bunch of frag

Well thank Braben we have people flying something other than PAs on the FDL.

And people using modshards in AX is an entirely different conversation. People using frags to strip shields on the interceptors is a non issue, cytos do it better but not many people are willing to wait a month to get them. Beams do it, but not as well and they shouldn't, due to their uptime. Both cases, are a non issue, the modshards are a non issue because the same can be done with gauss if you know how to fly. The frags for stripping shields is a non issue because this is what they are made to do, maximum damage output at under 1km range.

 

[SergMx]

I decided to compare Frags and MC in-game :
2d Frag : DPS = 143, Full Damage = 1800m, Penetration = 30.
2f MC : DPS = 18.9, Full Damage = 2000m, Penetration = 37.

I'm reminded of the conflict zones in Odyssey on his feet with a shotgun.

I've always had a different idea of bullets and buckshot.

 

[SergMx]

Well thank Braben we have people flying something other than PAs on the FDL.

Soon we won't see PA anywhere at all, much less on FDL.

People using frags to strip shields on the interceptors is a non issue, cytos do it better but

Actually, there is more armor after the shield is removed. If the shot would only remove the shield and fly off the hull I would not have brought this up.

 

[Adam_Aster]

Actually, there is more armor after the shield is removed. If the shot would only remove the shield and fly off the hull I would not have brought this up.

Human weapons don't damage the goid heart or exert it at all. They are purely for stripping shields. The mod shards are for damaging the heart.

 

[SergMx]

Human weapons don't damage the goid heart or exert it at all. They are purely for stripping shields. The mod shards are for damaging the heart.

In this case, I was talking about fighting a man.

When I mentioned AX, I was referring to the guards' weapons. Shards are the most popular weapon there too.

 

[Adam_Aster]

Shards are the most popular weapon there too.

Are they? They also exert a heart in the same amount of shots as a gauss so this is irrelevant. Especially when shards require you to put yourself in position to take more damage than gauss.

 

[SergMx]

Are they? They also exert a heart in the same amount of shots as a gauss so this is irrelevant. Especially when shards require you to put yourself in position to take more damage than gauss.

I realize you are trying to steer the conversation away from the main issue and topic.

 

[Adam_Aster]

I realize you are trying to steer the conversation away from the main issue and topic.

As for weapons. That's the main issue. Corvette
2 small, 2 medium, 1 large and 2 huge. The spreader is 8 and it can shoot better.
Kinda yes PythonMk2 = 2 medium and 4 large, FDL and Mamba
Small PD and it seems to be fine.
But here is the FC just gives them to shoot almost the same power and they have enough distributor ! Is it a balance ?
When the difference in penalty is 5 million vs 35-40. Is that okay?

The main issue is not an issue.
Yes, a lot of people are using frags when using the Pmk2, this is due to its distributor. It favors weapons that are not power hungry. Frags with that descriptor, especially with the Pmk2's mobility.
The difference penalty being what it is in big ships like the Vette is a result of the Vette being a big target and all pellets hitting it quite easily when in range. If you want to take less damage from frags while in a Vette, fly out of range of them or don't sit still. Medium and small ships are able to do so more easily thanks to their smaller hitbox.

First of all, no one will fly in pvp with 10k.
There will be a hole in the damage, again there is a risk of torpedoes, banks can easily shoot down.
It's easy to get hit by plasma with its 60% absolute damage.
And the shield has a very large signature, so sabzha with her scatter does not count, all the monstrous damage at once flies into the large shield of a clumsy ship.

You seem to be under the impression the only thing a big ship should be vulnerable to at any given time is torpedoes and this is just not the case. Thankfully.

 

[WeComeInPeace]

Frags eat ammo. That's the problem with them. Especially when Rapid fired-Screening shelled, which fixes the reload time (another problem) down to less than a sec. That also adds jitter, but as deadly as frags can be up close (4 pips!), they are harmless a "few feat away" anyhows.

 

[SergMx]

If you want to take less damage from frags while in a Vette, fly out of range of them or don't sit still.

Again How can you fly a slower less maneuverable ship away from a faster one ?

 

[SergMx]

Frags eat ammo. That's the problem with them. Especially when Rapid fired-Screening shelled, which fixes the reload time (another problem) down to less than a sec. That also adds jitter, but as deadly as frags can be up close (4 pips!), they are harmless a "few feat away" anyhows.

First of all, the pvp battle will end a lot sooner. And you'd better say it not to me, but to those people who use frags.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcGueTc5KU

 

[something]

I agree with the OP - to some extend.
Frags need a serious nerf. Just as any other weapon. I feel like no weapon should deal more than 5dps.

And then let's sell the 5k arx damage booster! Boost your damage to 11 (dps)
You can also buy the gold level booster. It boosts your damage to 5000dps

And then we have gimballed plasma accelerators.... 2^64 damage (per shot). I feel like 50k arx per piece would be appropriate.

 

[BackToTheMud]

Yeah, something could be done about frags, but fdev won't.
And if you want to balance things you really should start with removing prismatics.

 

[SergMx]

Yeah, something could be done about frags, but fdev won't.
And if you want to balance things you really should start with removing prismatics.

Prisms are a means of defense and don't really need to be weakened.
Then again how much time and money does it cost to buy a fully improved Cutter ? To engineer everything and how much does it cost to insure it?
Can all this effort be covered by a cheap FDL ?

The balance in this game is not that everyone is equal, but that an inferior and cheaper ship should take relatively long and hard to kill a big one !

 

[BackToTheMud]

Prisms are a means of defense and don't really need to be weakened.
Then again how much time and money does it cost to buy a fully improved Cutter ? To engineer everything and how much does it cost to insure it?
Can all this effort be covered by a cheap FDL ?

The balance in this game is not that everyone is equal, but that an inferior and cheaper ship should take relatively long and hard to kill a big one !

Dude, with engineering, the max dps increase you can get in this game is 80,25%. The max dmg potential, for things that uses ammo, is 106%.
At the same time, enginering can --easily-- give a large ship a 300% increase to its shield, and that doesn't even take resistances into account.
With prismatics this results in ridiculous numbers.
If you're able to get killed in a fully engineered cutter in a one on one you must be a special level of...special.

And a swarm of smaller, more nimble, ships should be able to beat the crap out of something that turnes as poorly as a cutter. Not that that will stop a not moronic cutter pilot from just jumping away, because the defence has all the advantage.

 

[Morbad]

Yes I understand YOU and your video too, even though they are 3 and 5 years old. You can say that nothing has changed in that time ....

Pilots are different, they fly differently, a lot of factors. I don't know if I can convince you, but the easiest way to prove it is to fight a Medusa or a Hydra. I realize that you will say that this is not the right fight and so on, but it is not. Yes the fight is different but it just shows the ability of the ships.

The fundamentals of most ships; their maneuverability, durability, and damage output has not moved since 3.0 when the new Engineering system was introduced. The introduction of the Python Mk II mixes things up slightly, and since I've yet to fly or fight one, I'm sure I have many things to learn about the nuances of the ship. However, it's not going to be a paradigm shift. A good Python Mk II will be a bit more troublesome for a large vessel than a good FDL, Mamba, or Python Mk I was, but there have always been faster ships boating frags as opponents for large vessels.

I'm not enamored with the Thargoid content, but I have fought some Interceptors. Thargoids didn't change anything relevant about the abilities of our ships. Fighting them required a revision of tactics, but these tactics do not translate into fighting CMDRs, because the CMDRs one has to worry about aren't as dumb as Thargoids.

Soon we won't see PA anywhere at all, much less on FDL.

Why do you think that? PA's didn't suddenly get worse, nor did the FDL suddenly stop becoming a good platform for them.

FDLs can evade most frag fire and rams from similarly performing ships...FDL pilots have simply gotten used to fighting other FDLs where collisions often harm both parties equally and both sides are trying to get as close as possible before shooting each other in the nuts with PAs. Once people learn this approach is bad against a significantly heavier ship with four pacifiers, people will start moving out of the way and taking shots at longer ranges again.

Again How can you fly a slower less maneuverable ship away from a faster one ?

You can't.

All you can hope to do is break their orbit often enough that they are out of optimal frag range often enough for them to feel compelled to take less than optimal shots, try to force collisions on close passes, and hope your aim is good enough that they lose first. If they wait for the perfect range and a full magazine every time, they are going to be doing a lot of waiting while getting shot at by a ship with a class 8 distributor, which is bad...and if they try to rush things, they are going to crash into a ship that is more than twice as heavy, which is also bad.

If they're great pilots with perfect timing and have the ideal loadout to counter yours, they'll win, and that's ok. You have the option to use a much cheaper vessel that is much more suited to fighting medium frag boats.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Frags have been around forever and their DPS has been the same nothing changes I have an all frag python armed trader and it's DPS is around 1700 mark. It's been with me for years ( at least 6 years ) I've tried not to do the boring meta builds and tried different engineering with other weapons.
I'm not sure why a call now, wants it nerfed ?

 

[SergMx]

I'm not enamored with the Thargoid content, but I have fought some Interceptors. Thargoids didn't change anything relevant about the abilities of our ships. Fighting them required a revision of tactics, but these tactics do not translate into fighting CMDRs, because the CMDRs one has to worry about aren't as dumb as Thargoids.

I don't agree. Generally it's very simple, until you defeat a jellyfish in space (one on one) I don't accept other arguments.
Targoids may be stupid, but fighting on a slow ship involves a lot of newns to defeat a swarm.
Yes it's a different fight than with humans but it's not any easier.

Once people learn this approach is bad against a significantly heavier ship with four pacifiers, people will start moving out of the way and taking shots at longer ranges again.

The issue isn't that from a big ship they shoot frags, the issue is that from a medium to big ship they shoot frags. You won't even be able to fix the module booster on the fly, you just won't have time.

If they're great pilots with perfect timing and have the ideal loadout to counter yours, they'll win, and that's ok. You have the option to use a much cheaper vessel that is much more suited to fighting medium frag boats.

That's what I'm writing about, no one else will fly in the open game on big ships and those who will fly there will be on medium-sized ships with frags.