No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[CmdrPSB]

That isn't the case, it removes a way of play that was ancillary to the game we pitched. We've been quite clear from the start that online play was the way the game was meant to played. However we did want to support offline play, but as already mentioned that hasn't proved possible. I completely understand for people affected that this isn't the decision they wanted to hear, but it was a choice we had to make.

Michael

I admire your efforts to try defend yourself and colleagues against the rampant outright lies being spouted by some Michael, but sometimes you just have to stop feeding the trolls.

 

[Zuikaku]

We've always been clear that the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game. Multiplayer and the evolving galaxy were the two core pillars that set this as something new and special for the Elite series. Without those there wouldn't have been a new game at all. Back in the kickstarter we believed that we could support offline play as well, but as development progressed the scope expanded considerably and more of the game had to held online for it to work as intended. We've constantly examined how we could hive off some of that work in a separate offline mode but that has proven not be the case.

Michael

You know how this ressembles of Sim city case?!

But did you ever thought how many people were not interested in MMO Elite and saw only "Offline" part? We have nothing against your MMO idea, but we wanted to play offline. Unaffected by other players actions.

Anyway, I'm not here to pick up a fight. Can you give us a clear answer will you and when make an offline version (since you have admitted that was design and not tech. decision). If yes, when exactly, if not ever, give everybody refunds.

Sorry if I'm to harsh...

 

[WeirdWizard]

Well I spent a bit of time this morning looking through some packet sniffing data on ED and reflected of ways to perhaps help Frontier Developments solve their problems or is necessary produce a 3rd party community developed offline server. I was hoping to discuss just that in a constructive and positive manner with the community here so i created a thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61064 which was promptly closed by a mod. I've requested that he reopen the thread but having not heard anything yet and having spend quite a bit of time on this today I thought I would "try" and bring the discussion here. Thoughts?

 

[Warbler]

We've always been clear that the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game. Multiplayer and the evolving galaxy were the two core pillars that set this as something new and special for the Elite series. Without those there wouldn't have been a new game at all. Back in the kickstarter we believed that we could support offline play as well, but as development progressed the scope expanded considerably and more of the game had to held online for it to work as intended. We've constantly examined how we could hive off some of that work in a separate offline mode but that has proven not be the case.

Michael

Did you present the offline mode to the DDF for consideration?

 

[Michael Brookes]

You know how this ressembles of Sim city case?!

But did you ever thought how many people were not interested in MMO Elite and saw only "Offline" part? We have nothing against your MMO idea, but we wanted to play offline. Unaffected by other players actions.

Anyway, I'm not here to pick up a fight. Can you give us a clear answer will you and when make an offline version (since you have admitted that was design and not tech. decision). If yes, when exactly, if not ever, give everybody refunds.

Sorry if I'm to harsh...

If I remember correctly Sim City had the code to run completely offline - that isn't the case for Elite: Dangerous.

Michael

 

[CmdrPSB]

And yet here you are repeating the same shill dogma over and over again. At this point you sound little more than a battered wife trying desperately to convince everyone you walked into a door.

Use of the term "shill" and the only analogy you can make involves violence and women. Gamergater perhaps?

 

[Adept]

So you say youre not touching this, yet in doing so you just did. It doesnt take a phd to see when someone acts out of misplaced loyalty. For example victims of spousal abuse. Women or men who are abused by their partner yet dont leave and in most cases defend the actions of the abuser. And if youre trying to derail my point by suggesting I have some personal experience of abuse and should therefore be ignored or made fun of, well shame on you.

Actuallly you keep saying how the off-line crowd has been treated shockingly poorly by those who do not share their outrage.

I don't think it's possible for me to make you see how the behavior of some of the off-line crowd is far beyond acceptable behavior to many of us, and how we can't condone the overblown accusations and actions designed to hurt the game and the company behind it.

You feel like myself and others are behaving poorly. I can assure you that many of us find your conduct absolutely shocking and entirely disproportional. If you feel like you are the white-hat in the scenario, at best that white is very, very dirty and tarnished.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

That isn't the case, it removes a way of play that was ancillary to the game we pitched. We've been quite clear from the start that online play was the way the game was meant to played. However we did want to support offline play, but as already mentioned that hasn't proved possible. I completely understand for people affected that this isn't the decision they wanted to hear, but it was a choice we had to make.

Michael

Then why include it in your reward tiers for kickstarter?

Indeed, why did you and David go on record as stating it would not only be possible, but definitively so?

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

I've asked this to David, and I got no answers, perhaps you can do a little better.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Did you present the offline mode to the DDF for consideration?

No, the DDF provided a host of useful design feedback and ideas, but they aren't managing the project. That's down to us. We had to make a choice, even knowing that it would be unpopular with some, but it was made for the betterment of the game.

Michael

 

[CmdrPSB]

Then why include it in your reward tiers for kickstarter?

Indeed, why did you and David go on record as stating it would not only be possible, but definitively so?

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

I've asked this to David, and I got no answers, perhaps you can do a little better.

David has answered that question many, many times.

 

[mbpoblet]

Not trying to imply anything just I've seen the 10kbps argument being used to imply the server isnt doing anything and it really doesnt. What is transmitted between the server and the client has no baring on the work load of the server itself.

For example, lets assume for the sake of argument there was a search function that allowed to search the cheapest gold available close to you for sale. Your client transmits the query to the server. You can do that with just 2 bytes no problem (1 byte for the query type, 1 byte for the item you want). The Server would then need to search every single station in each of the 4 billion star systems. It would also need to query distance of each of the stars. Find the cheapest option and then go through all the list of distances to find the closest. This operation needs to be fast no one would like their client to spend something like 5 minutes waiting for a reply so all this data would need to be stored into memory. 4 billion possible markets * 80 commodities = 320gb + 4gb of star distances = 324gb total ram required by the server. Something that clearly cannot be handled by a home pc. Anyhow. The server does the look up and sends you the star system in question you have to go and the price it is there another 2 bytes.

So in this completely fictitious scenario 4 bytes were transmitted to and from the server but an operation was performed by the server that no home PC could handle in a timely manner.

Again I used functionality that doesnt exist on purpose cause my purpose here is not to say what is true or what isnt just to correct the statement that because only 10kbps is being transmitted it means the server isnt doing anything special. There just isnt a relationship between data transmitted and server processing really.

Fair enough (although that would be an awful design and I find it very difficult to believe that the very talented people at FD could perpetrate that kind of code).

However, as you said, your example used functionality that doesn't exist (since it would be absurd).

The only conceivable real functionality in the game that could fit is the actual generation of the galaxy (do all the procedural generation on the server and just send over the seeds for the actual entities... stars, planets, stations, and whatnot... so that they can be rendered on the client). That would not only be equally absurd, but also completely unnecessary, as proven by plenty of other games and programs that procedurally generate galaxies on regular PCs.

So yes, as a general case you're definitely right, but in this particular game's case, I don't think this hypothesis holds much water.

 

[Zuikaku]

If I remember correctly Sim City had the code to run completely offline - that isn't the case for Elite: Dangerous.

Michael

They said that for SC too. Anyway I'm you fan and not SC fan. And i have supported you and now we are here even being attacked by people who will get MMO they wanted. And we also helped themm to get that. Was is really necessary to mention that work on offline version would endanger online version too. That just sparked so much hate within comunity...

 

[littleminxundr]

We've also added a number of features and changed others. This is the nature of development. Did we want to drop offline support? No - we know this is an emotive feature for some players. We spent time and effort to try and find a workable solution which meant that the news was released later than we would have liked.

Michael

That's nice Michael.

However, people weren't asking for extra stuff, they were asking for single player offline, which was by the big guy himself affirmed, and he was profusely thanked for it. You can't in good conscience deny refunds to the people that were duped. People KS Elite provably for the single player offline. Come on. Disprove it. Earn your money and spin it.

I researched till I was aboslutely sure that the game still had Offline. I had absolutely no reason to believe that the Offline would be pulled. Check my buy in date:

I know the legalities, but can you with a straight face say that I can't be refunded?
Here's my ticket ID: 3383
If your heart tells you different from your professional duties, help people out maybe?

 

[Mu77ley]

Then why include it in your reward tiers for kickstarter?

The simple answer is that it is not even mentioned in any of the reward tiers...

 

[Juniper]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

Thank you for the response Ed.

I've highlighted the only relevant part of your post.

The phrase that springs immediately (and subsequently) to mind is: "Put your money where your mouth is".

The Elite community did that in droves when asked by "David B and Michael B" to back a new Elite game (which included offline), and that's why you're able to develop this game in the first place.

Now it is long past time for them to do the same, and not hide behind the fact that we've supported & tested this game, using that as a reason not to provide full & unconditional refunds to those who have been hoodwinked by not developing the game you said you were.

I'm pretty sure I'd feel a whole lot happier about your statements that they "value the community" if they would do the decent thing.

 

[Ecks Theory]

That isn't the case, it removes a way of play that was ancillary to the game we pitched. We've been quite clear from the start that online play was the way the game was meant to played. However we did want to support offline play, but as already mentioned that hasn't proved possible. I completely understand for people affected that this isn't the decision they wanted to hear, but it was a choice we had to make.

Michael

OK so give the people that bought the game for the offline a refund. Problem solved. The more you refuse the more it looks like youre nothing more than conmen. Ramping up the PR guys to promote beta upgrades all the while knowing you were going ot stripe away an important feature is pretty shady.

Until you give people their refunds you will be looked at with the same disdain as the likes of EA.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Then why include it in your reward tiers for kickstarter?

Indeed, why did you and David go on record as stating it would not only be possible, but definitively so?

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

I've asked this to David, and I got no answers, perhaps you can do a little better.

As mentioned before we believed that would be possible at the time. The game has changed considerably in scope since the kickstarter, the game we are making is much bigger and better than what we pitched back then. Most of the changes stemming from the excellent feedback we received. Many of features require an online component and that's what has ultimately prompted the decision. Repeating myself again -) ) but the decision had to be made and we made it.

Michael

 

[SalsaDMA]

Ditto, and you're not the only one warming up the presses for a chargeback, I'm already making initial discussions with my card processor and they're quite happy to make it happen if FDEV do not honour a refund, they believe I've got grounds for claim based on the paperwork I've submitted, and unless FDEV are willing to make a good will effort to resolve the situation prior, they've already said that the moment I'm told I'm not entitled to a refund and submitted proof they've denied my request, they'll initiate the process along with a note stating that they will take notice of other, similar claims.

Unfortunately the ship skins I was fool enough to run through paypal so I will have a long, slow haul to get any form of refund out of them, and I can only do that after I've fired the claim off, but I'm in a position where I -can- do these things.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it >:| Oh, and Frontier Developments, I sincerely hope enough chargebacks hit that you get put on the suspect merchant list, because the only language you understand it seems is that of fire. I have no quarrel with anyone here, and I'm sincerely sorry it's come to this, nor do I have any quarrel with most of the staff or moderators involved, because frankly this is not their fault. But whoever decided this boneheaded legalese method of sledging their customers is good thinking needs to be hung out to dry.

How does that work for kickstarters? Kickstarter collects the money and makes it available for the project creator, so a callback would call back the money from kickstarter, not from Brabens company.

 

[Dalkeith]

I'm happy when I signed up on Kickstarter I was fully aware that the result of the process would probably not quite tally with the vision. I don't think I've built something yet that matched original spec. Frontier for me has delivered 100% on what I was expecting.

I don't actually have a computer at the moment that could play the game probably won't have for a couple of years. But I'm happy that when I do get a computer Elite will be there for me to play.

 

[Michael Brookes]

OK so give the people that bought the game for the offline a refund. Problem solved. The more you refuse the more it looks like youre nothing more than conmen. Ramping up the PR guys to promote beta upgrades all the while knowing you were going ot stripe away an important feature is pretty shady.

Until you give people their refunds you will be looked at with the same disdain as the likes of EA.

And that is being looked into - however we have to be careful that our refunds policy is consistent.

Michael