Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Open-Only in PP2.0?
- Thread starter August Lagrange
- Start date
Every player being part of a big, happy, family? (yeah, right!)
I'll get my coat...
The overall impression I've gotten from the Powerplay Open Only crowd is that they want PvP at the tactical level to be viable. Powerplay "succeeds" (I use the term loosely) at the strategic level, and they've had the occasional meaningful victories at the combat level, but at the tactical level? They're frustrated, because they bravely do all their activities in Open, while everyone else is cowardly doing all their activities in Solo/PG.
In my experience, tactical PvP needs three elements to be viable:
- Everyone on the same server - Needless to say, if you want tactival PvP to succeed, everyone needs to be playing on the same server. This isn't a problem, because the live game has everyone sharing the same galaxy server as everyone else.
- Everyone in the same instance - This is where it gets tricky, and is where IMO the underlying problem lies. Even if Powerplay goes Open Only, you still have to deal with the instancing problems, which aren't great even under the best of conditions. And then there's the performance problem: all it takes is a host with a slow connection, high lag due to physical distance, or a budget PC to ruin the experience for everyone. And Frontier's instancing rules favors quality connections over instancing with strangers, and instancing with friends over both.
- Everyone logged in at the same time - This is the third element required for tactical PvP to be viable. If a blockade can be successfully evaded by logging in when everyone else is logged out, the blockade isn't nearly as effective. And if the strategic PvP aspects amounts to PvE bucket filling, then PvP defensive tactics are ultimately a waste of time for the defenders.
Every other game similar to Elite Dangerous I've played, where strategic level PvP in a PvE game is even an option, decides to sacrifice the shared server for the sake of greatly improving instancing, with the added benefit that players will usually choose their local server for the best playing experience. This in turn reduces the login problem as well.
It reduces the problem, but it doesn't reduce it greatly. It certainly does not eliminate the problem entirely. Because if players are allowed to remove their avatars from the game, a certain type of toxic player will weaponize that ability to gain an advantage. And I'm not just talking about genuine combat logging either. I'm talking about using the ability to vanish from, and appear on, the game map tactically. It's the ultimate form of stealth, it cannot be countered, and very few players find being on the receiving end of that kind of thing fun. This causes players to get frustrated and quit. Those that don't quit will feel pressured to adopt the same kind of toxic tactics to counter them, which begins a negative feedback cycle that results in an abandoned game, or the elimination of almost all PvP, except for opt-in duels and maybe a PvP zone or two.
And that's before you factor in the ability to weaponize instancing in this game as well. In order to eliminate that, Frontier needs to switch to a client/server networking solution, which has its own set of drawbacks, given the global nature of the shared galaxy simulation.
Which is why I keep insisting that the PvP PowerPlay community is going to be very frustrated with the results of it going Only Open. Right now, they're experiencing what I think will be tactical PvP at it's absolute best, and they're already frustrated by their experience. And while I believe that their intentions for Powerplay Open Only to be the best, it's their unintentions that concern me. I've danced this dance far too many times, I know how it inevitably ends, and it's never pretty... at least for those players who have any interest in PvP at all, even if it's only peripheral.
Nah! PvP=fun! So we just want to have [more] fun... we leave all the remainder to strategists and dreamers.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
For some, no doubt.
It is not lost on those who don't find PvP to be "fun" that those who do seem to be quite happy to PvP-gate existing game content in pursuit of their own fun at the expense of others.
Which is the essence of the whole Powerplay Open Only debate. Are you going to have more fun PvP with a larger playerbase able to choose their mode on a session by session basis, and thus have more players willing to play by your rules, or a smaller playerbase who has to be policed into playing by your rules.
Rules are set by the game [developers] then players decide if they want to play or not.
Numbers don't really matter, commitment does.
When I suggested that PP 2.0 had its own mode, an alleged supporter of 'open' PP mentioned that if it had its own mode, they wouldn't play it...
Not suggesting that you wouldn't, just that some really only want the 'pews', not the PP involvement.
Opportunistic opponents that actually can alter how you approach things at that time.
The problem in PP is that NPCs are also opportunistic (outside of places you 'collect' them) but don't actually directly fight you enough to alter how you play.
Its why I think you misunderstand what Open Powerplay supporters 'see' it as. Its not about 1:1 curated organised player battles, its literally whoever you find logged on and how each of you deals with the other. What @Rebel Yell is talking about (IMO) is this very thing- its you, taking a chance in Open as you play PP. As I replied to Robert above, NPCs outside of PP CZs and Navs are also opportunistic and not 'set'- so really what Open does is replicate and amplify what opposition you might see. So in this regard, while imperfect the networking is good enough to enable that.
I believe that's because it would guarantee the maximum overlap... and also because if we look at PP 1.0 there's no need to be pledged in order to have impact on powerplay (i.e. where unpledged CMDR destroys a pledged one holding/hauling merits... + the indirect fallout coming from BGS activities on triggers).
But looking at PP 2.0 and provided that only pledged CMDRs may have an impact on powerplay, then my answer would be a "why not".
Edit for this: also provided that, once pledged such "open-only powerplay mode" will be the only one mode allowing the player to maintain progression... i.e. if another mode is selected, all powerplay progression / merits (whatever they'll call them) / rank (if any) are lost.
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I'd mentioned roughly that - the only mode where PP activities are played, no block list active or possible, so all like-minded individuals.
I wasn't as unkind as to suggest the penalties you have suggested, but they make absolute sense to me.
For it to just be a part of it. It's incredibly unlikely (and everyone kind of knows this) that PvP will be a big part of powerplay, big enough for it to just win systems on its own or to be a more effective strategy than just PvE bounty hunting or mission-doing or trading/hauling. But it just adds to the fun, to the player interaction, and it'd contribute to the efforts in a system.
I don't do any PvP whatsoever I still play in Open because I think it's fair to give anyone opposing me the opportunity to blow me up. i just don't want to feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot by doing so though, since I could very well just do it in Solo/PG and I know for a fact certain people don't give me the same courtesy of playing in Open.
Which group? As far as I know, pretty much every big powerplay group out there has open-only as a squadron policy. If you're openly playing for FUC, ADC, Mahon, the Lavigny's guys, etc... I'm not sure it'd go over well with them if a member proudly does powerplay in Solo.
And I don't mean to be condescending here but I'd love clarification that when you say you play/have played powerplay, you don't mean just doing the merits for module shopping.
Why do i need to be in a group? I haul dissidents when im in the bubble, lots of them, sometimes i wing up with a few mates for a laugh which fortifies a system faster.
I don't need a group or squadron its not my main gameplay.
I used to use the XL sheet the main Utopian groups use to see which systems needed doing first, but lets be honest once you understand how it works its not rocket surgery is it?
O7
Its when you have a total turmoil and have to know what order systems drop off and which systems you need to fortify the sheet comes in handy.
V2 will be far easier.
Why ??? Do we need to put clarification of our BGS or PP credentials ? Before putting forward our thoughts and dreams ? You could do the same courtesy as many others have done and accept an opinion from another Commander ? whether it be right or wrong .
Ohh you don't do it proper( my way ) so your opinion doesn't count ? Is a poor excuse .
No offence really and it's just my opinion.
Also if all the PP groups are in open why are there so many posts about groups playing in Solo or PG ??
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I see, I mostly mentioned it because some people try to expand to systems and end up harming their power without meaning to when playing outside the main groups. That's cool though, fortifying doesn't do anything bad as far as I know.
I've just noticed most people who are against open only powerplay do not, in fact, play powerplay. There's always a level of frustration when most powerplayers would like it being open only but people who never do any powerplay come in an shut down that discussion. You don't really see powerplayers being like, actually all trading loops/mining should be in open, not really, they don't try to tell you how to play
Again your whole argument tends to be PVP focused .
PP isn't that focused on PVP, you don't get extra credits for blowing up an enemy human pilot PP doesn't work like that.
An over simplification
1 enemy pilot NPC = 1 point
1 human pilot = 1 point
There are more NPC around and are easier to find
So fine you can PVP to your heart's content for that 1 elusive commander
Meanwhile I kill 2 NPC
Who wins ?
Or even worse you lock onto 1 commander who you eventually kill but his other 10 buddies have gotten through.
In the end it's about how well you fill those buckets and the highest number wins.
My last point everyone says the work in open but saying and doing are two different things.
Yup played open but on EDO lite ( no on foot) as most big groups will be on "live" . But it's still open isn't it ??
PP isn't that focused on PVP, you don't get extra credits for blowing up an enemy human pilot PP doesn't work like that.
An over simplification
1 enemy pilot NPC = 1 point
1 human pilot = 1 point
There are more NPC around and are easier to find
So fine you can PVP to your heart's content for that 1 elusive commander
Meanwhile I kill 2 NPC
Who wins ?
Or even worse you lock onto 1 commander who you eventually kill but his other 10 buddies have gotten through.
In the end it's about how well you fill those buckets and the highest number wins.
My last point everyone says the work in open but saying and doing are two different things.
Yup played open but on EDO lite ( no on foot) as most big groups will be on "live" . But it's still open isn't it ??
Which is the major turnoff for PowerPlay 1.0 in my opinion, and one of the major attractions of 2.0: losing much of a player’s progression anytime they got sick, took a vacation, had to deal with a crisis at home, wanted a break from the monotony of the old PowerPlay mechanics, wanted to try a new game, or whatever. Like most players, I already have a job, and I don’t need another.
There is a lot of problems with open only, but one of the ones that people don't seem to be paying much attention to is the fact that the bubble is so huge, your chances of encountering anyone just wandering around are going to be quite low. Even if you did miraculously come up with some sort of way to make open only work, you would still need a way to gather combative players into a single location so that they can actually fight.
That being the case, it seems like it would be easier to just figure out how you would gather those players into a central location, and then just make that central location Open only.
That being the case, it seems like it would be easier to just figure out how you would gather those players into a central location, and then just make that central location Open only.