Well done Frontier!

[Coolgroove]

"Jumping queue is a crime punishable by death!"

Great so see things are looking up for Frontier again. If this trend continues, maybe a "bigger" paid expansion/DLC could become a possibility again.

Caustic Ride - maybe you'd finish, or it'll finish you.
Notoriety Slide - only for High profile individuals. Snipers are ready.

and never get to close without a ticket - trespass zone is deadly.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

It sounds like your reaction was to my comment, however my comment was entirely truthful; I was looking at the numbers posted. FDev's revenues for both years are the same ($47.7M vs $47.3M) yet the recent year is a $4.4M profit while the previous year was a $4.7M loss. Unless some jiggery-pokery is going on that I don't understand (which may be possible as I'm not a corporate accountant) then this means the change in fortune came from a big reduction in expenses, not an increase in revenue (because revenue decreased slightly according to the posted numbers). In the game industry (which I am part of) a big change in expenses YtY is almost certainly about headcount. Without that change of expenses it would have been another year of loss, because revenues were the same.

Remember: FDev numbers are not numbers for Elite, they are numbers for FDev; the entire operation and all their games.

I think 2024 was a great year for Elite, but the comment was about FDev financials. I'm not sure why you assume people are being untruthful.

You're right about the fact they cut costs and one of those costs was the 20% of staff that lost their jobs. It's a horrible situation to be in but if you want a company to survive, then it has to be done sometimes. I still think fdev would have made a profit this year if they hadn't cut those jobs, but I feel it would have been that miniscule it would have had people panicking like last year.

The interesting thing was both planet coaster (22% of their revenue) and Elite: Ascendancy were released in the month before these results, so it incudes the big player number hike for powerplay 2 and two of the four ships (The Python MK II was in May and this only covers beginning of June to end of November). But it does mean that those two ships effectively doubled Elite's income for the last six months, so I'm guessing we're going to see more ships soon. There's obvious space for a medium sized passenger vessel, and maybe a large cargo vessel.

You're forgetting the free Anaconda which you get at Hutton Orbital!

It's not free! It's 100Cr and you have to wait for them to build the large docking bay first!

 

[Cosmo]

The interesting thing was both planet coaster (22% of their revenue) and Elite: Ascendancy were released in the month before these results, so it incudes the big player number hike for powerplay 2 and two of the four ships (The Python MK II was in May and this only covers beginning of June to end of November). But it does mean that those two ships effectively doubled Elite's income for the last six months, so I'm guessing we're going to see more ships soon. There's obvious space for a medium sized passenger vessel, and maybe a large cargo vessel.

Fdev knows many players want the Panther Clipper so if they release that it would increase ship sales a lot.

I still think that the best course for the game, and what many would like to play, would be:

• On one side: To continue story of the world with direct players involvement. Hopefully Guardians this time, maybe in a form of survived Traditionalist or Salvation+Sentinels (just please, don't do "now we need thargoid weapons to damage guardians" it would be very lame).
• On the other side: Ship Interiors+EVA, Ship to ship/megaship/installations/derelicts docking/landing, boarding action, rescue & passengers, looting, etc. (see sig). And then there could be a combination of surface sites mechanics with boarding Guardian/Salvation vessels and uploading a virus, and many many other cool & fun activities.

After that Atmospheric Worlds, Terraforming, ELW, whatever.

If it's not a big expansion, then it could be released as smaller DLC or an early access pass. Buy the pass which includes a discount for all the DLC of interiors, EVA and/or new planet types.

 

[Coolgroove]

If it's not a big expansion, then it could be released as smaller DLC or an early access pass. Buy the pass which includes a discount for all the DLC of interiors, EVA and/or new planet types.

Maybe. I would prefer it to be a DLC, and Expansion to be exact - where at least a half of new content/systems are added in one big first patch, and then other features and tweaks are added in some number of following patches (once a season, or at least twice a year). It also could be good to bring media attention to it again and again each patch, for more sales to new/old players, and it would be very playable - as time between patches would give both - time for players actions and time to develop/tweak reaction/continuation of the story (just as that usually goes).

Early access - I don't want it to go the very slippery slope. As it is right now, with ships - it's more than enough. The rest are cosmetics/skins/interior items with new for each patch.

yeah, in a perfect world, would be nice XD

 

[Cosmo]

Maybe. I would prefer it to be a DLC, and Expansion to be exact - where at least a half of new content/systems are added in one big first patch, and then other features and tweaks are added in some number of following patches (once a season, or at least twice a year).

I doubt there is a budget for another big Odyssey-style expansion, but I could be wrong. A patch (update) can be free, but some content must be sold as DLC.

It also could be good to bring media attention to it again and again each patch, for more sales to new/old players, and it would be very playable - as time between patches would give both - time for players actions and time to develop/tweak reaction/continuation of the story (just as that usually goes).

Yeah for example free updates (patches) + ship early access + 2-4 major DLC per year.

Early access - I don't want it to go the very slippery slope. As it is right now, with ships - it's more than enough. The rest are cosmetics/skins/interior items with new for each patch.

We already have 3 month early access for ships. Ship sales has increased revenue for ED so that shouldn't stop. SC's main revenue is also ship sales + melting and the grey market where ships are bought and resold.

 

[evanevery]

That does mean that every player is winning...
The starter Sidey is zero rebuy
Winking Cat(?) gave participants of the treasure hunt a free Vulture
Another of the rewards was a free Courier a couple of years ago.
Wasn't a Clipper given away free too? (I missed that one)

I already had 3 zero rebuy ships before buying the 4 new ships... (I'm a winner BIG-TIME I guess!)

Again, I really don't care, but the question WAS asked...

Your zero credit rebuy sidewinder(s) is/are not much in utility compared to a pre-built Alliance Chieftan AX Combat ship that the store is selling (for example). Folks who buy that ship can roll in to a Thargoid fight over and over and never have to worry about a rebuy. I've been playing for years and I still haven't done the grind to build a decent AX ship. If I decide to do that I'm certainly just going to buy the ship and roll from there to skip the grind. How's a sidewinder gonna stack up in that kind of service?

The original purpose of the free Sidey is simply a way to get a failed cmdr back in the game with SOMETHING. ...and while the Sidey does have some utility, it lies mostly in its disposability. Now we can have seriously capable ships which are also completely disposable.

...and arguably one of the best mid-sized ships with considerable cargo capacity (T8) is also available. I just outfitted one of my starter alts with a T8. Went straight from the beginner sidey (in the protected zone) to a well kitted T8 in a single step. That's kind of a big step up for a starter pilot don't you think?

I did take a starter alt from zero to Elite w/Cutter using what I learned from my primary. I wanted to see how fast I could get to rank up with the Feds, earn Elite, and get the best ship in the game (IMHO). It took about a week of grinding (32 hrs) to get it done. Now, I could do it MUCH faster if I can PURCHASE a well equipped T8 right out of the gate. No grinding for creds so I can buy all those modules and step up ship by ship (Hauler, etc) just to get out of the zone and be able to haul some cargo. Folks can just purchase the T8 with great cargo capacity, decent jump range, SCO even, and skip hours and hours of working their way out of the protected zone and up the ladder. This DOES significantly change the early game. Its certainly a "Win" for an early cmdr. They will easily be able to outpace other cmdrs who do not make the purchase.

Were those other ships also a zero credit rebuy? I really don't know. I understand why Frontier needs to do that (as its a paid commodity). In any case, it doesn't change the fact that a zero credit rebuy ship with substantial capabilities DOES provide an in-game advantage in progress (particularly for "young" CMDRs). Especially if you just have to pay for it rather than work in game on some treasure hunt or towards some reward. That's what we're talking about, right? Paying for something rather than working for it...

I really don't care. I'm glad Frontier is making money. They certainly got more of mine. Hopefully they will invest it in the game. But to say that the ability to purchase very capable ships doesn't provide a significant in-game benefit is simply not correct.

 

[vanFace]

But to say that the ability to purchase very capable ships doesn't provide a significant in-game benefit is simply not correct.

Brace for impact.

 

[Rainbro]

I remember the microtransactions being praised for being cosmetic-only once upon a time, now it seems much more complicated. A lot of discussion about the terminology. All I can see is that you can pay for tangible gameplay assets, whereas before they were just cosmetic.

The focus on if this is "pay to win" is a bit misguided in my mind, because what WOULD be pay to win in this game? If it's impossible because there is no You Win screen, then that indicates to me that something is wrong with the question being asked. Does Horizons not count either? Not a microtransaction, but those were some massive gameplay advantages. The ships are pretty good from what I'm hearing, not +100℅ damage good but in the same direction.

Used to be cosmetics only, now you can pay real money to recieve ships and modules, effectively progression. I don't see that as any different to paying for credits, even if there's no win screen when I get enough of them.

 

[Kzak]

I remember the microtransactions being praised for being cosmetic-only once upon a time, now it seems much more complicated. A lot of discussion about the terminology. All I can see is that you can pay for tangible gameplay assets, whereas before they were just cosmetic.

The focus on if this is "pay to win" is a bit misguided in my mind, because what WOULD be pay to win in this game? If it's impossible because there is no You Win screen, then that indicates to me that something is wrong with the question being asked. Does Horizons not count either? Not a microtransaction, but those were some massive gameplay advantages. The ships are pretty good from what I'm hearing, not +100℅ damage good but in the same direction.

Used to be cosmetics only, now you can pay real money to recieve ships and modules, effectively progression. I don't see that as any different to paying for credits, even if there's no win screen when I get enough of them.

Still not pay to win, IMO, for you need skill to use those ships and modules effectively. Can't pay for the skill, that is entirely up to the player to spend much time honing their reflexes, tactics, muscle memory and so forth. I'm a decent pilot, but even if I was in a top-tier ship, a practiced PvPer in a lesser ship would likely have me for lunch in short order.

 

[Rainbro]

Still not pay to win, IMO, for you need skill to use those ships and modules effectively. Can't pay for the skill, that is entirely up to the player to spend much time honing their reflexes, tactics, muscle memory and so forth. I'm a decent pilot, but even if I was in a top-tier ship, a practiced PvPer in a lesser ship would likely have me for lunch in short order.

So what would be pay to win? Is it impossible so long as players of different skill can meet to cancel out any difference in the outcome?

 

[Kzak]

So what would be pay to win? Is it impossible so long as players of different skill can meet to cancel out any difference in the outcome?

Pay to win would be paying real money to gain a massive advantage that non-paying players cannot hope to match, or would at the very least have very poor odds going up against.

 

[Rainbro]

Pay to win would be paying real money to gain a massive advantage that non-paying players cannot hope to match, or would at the very least have very poor odds going up against.

I see that as the same area as ships, you're just arguing the advantage isn't enough. That's understandable, I think the new ships are strong and have the SCO advantages but not oppressively so. I would count Horizons though under that logic, for the time it was paid.

 

[Fnord Velkor]

Pay to win would be paying real money to gain a massive advantage that non-paying players cannot hope to match, or would at the very least have very poor odds going up against.

So, compared to new"ish" commanders ....

Bounty Hunter Jumpstart Vulture - Pre-Built Ships - Elite Dangerous Gamestore

Hunt down your prey with this pre-built Vulture. Includes: Vulture Ship Specialised Bounty Hunting Loadout Crossfire Green Paint Job 16-Pie...

www.elitedangerous.com

 

[galahad2069]

Pay to win would be paying real money to gain a massive advantage that non-paying players cannot hope to match, or would at the very least have very poor odds going up against.

Pay to win is paying real money to gain any kind of ingame advantage. Anything that's not purely cosmetic, basically.

There are various degrees of p2w, it's a broad umbrella term covering a wide range of ingame benefits you can pay for, some of them more serious, some of them less so. It does not matter how massive/decisive the advantage is, whether it's temporary or permanent, whether the thing you buy is some unique gear or you're just skipping some ingame grind or anything like that. All of the above qualify as p2w, the difference is only quantitative, not qualitative.

 

[Coolgroove]

2-4 major DLC per year.

emmm, hahaha, that is a tiny bit insane number per year XD
One DLC + Patches would be nice for a year.

We already have 3 month early access for ships. Ship sales has increased revenue for ED so that shouldn't stop.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about - ships, how they are now, with Early Access are more that enough of "Early Access". Patches, etc with EA is too much.
So basically, Content+Systems are in DLCs/Expansions. Patches for that DLC/Expansion till it's done. Ships continue with EA.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But it does mean that those two ships effectively doubled Elite's income for the last six months

No, not really. It's probably not even the case that they doubled the ARX income specifically.

Comparing the information on the various pages of the investor presentation, the post-Ascendancy boost is visible on the revenue graph, but is so much smaller than the relative boost on the Elite PDLC graph that almost all of that boost must have been from new base-game sales.

PDLC income in November compared with March was almost seven times higher on a monthly basis [1], but total revenue for ED was only about doubled comparing the two months. The only way that's possible is if PDLC income makes up a very small fraction of the total. [2]

If base-game sales income was identical in March and November (which the text I think rules out) that still limits PDLC income to making up only ~50% of November's income and ~15% of March's income. Even a modest 50% rise in base-game income comparing March and November would limit PDLC income to under 10% of March's income and still only about 25% of November's.
(And PDLC income, in this context, is going to include Odyssey purchases, and purchases of existing cosmetics by some of these new accounts)

I expect the ships have all paid for their own development (which is all they really needed to do) but the big boost to general income has come from things like Powerplay and the battle for Sol attracting (directly or indirectly) lots of new players (or new alts) to the game.

[1] The second graph showing ED PDLC income doesn't have a scale, which I expect is very deliberate to avoid making it too obvious how small the absolute values involved are.
[2] Similarly, PDLC income in May and August was over three times that of March, but the total Elite Dangerous income for March, May and August was essentially indistinguishable for all three months. The graph is low-resolution enough that you can't get too much out of that, but again it does mean that the very obvious spike in November/December can't have been mainly PDLC income.

 

[Fnord Velkor]

... which I expect is very deliberate ...

Absolutely.

 

[Cosmo]

emmm, hahaha, that is a tiny bit insane number per year XD
One DLC + Patches would be nice for a year.

It depends on the size of the DLC. For example: Water worlds DLC, Earth-like worlds DLC, interiors for Lakon ships DLC, EVA outside the ship DLC, Concourse new areas DLC. They could do 1-2 per year. The patches fix bugs and could add small additions. Also keep selling early access for 2-4 ships per year.

 

[Archvillain]

It depends on the size of the DLC. For example: Water worlds DLC, Earth-like worlds DLC, interiors for Lakon ships DLC, EVA outside the ship DLC, Concourse new areas DLC. They could do 1-2 per year. The patches fix bugs and could add small additions. Also keep selling early access for 2-4 ships per year.

I'd suggest the dev time for those DLC examples ranges more like 1 year for the easiest one to 5+ years for the hardest one.

EVA could be under a year if it didn't do much, but I think most people want these kinds of DLC to be more than cosmetic

That said, speaking for myself I'd be happy with that approach to separate things out like that rather than a single giant update every few years; either approach works for me. I guess we're getting that with the free updates, like PP2, colonization, etc

 

[DJ]

That would tie up with next year when inevitably Odyssey transitions into a free expansion (as did Horizons after 5yrs.)