Galnet News just confirmed how to influence your Starport economy but...
- Thread starter Nukester
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I oppose that - first they should fix the markets from Micro-Markets only to Micro-, Regional (Planet plus Moons plus orbits) and global (allinfluencers).
Thats currently the biggest problem IMHO
Yeah but thats probably not possible in their system, reducint a number by 50% is.
They decided to skip beta so youre vere optimistic thinking they will make a big change like this.
Very intriguing - I'm wondering if 'population' might also have a bearing on increasing the commodity types? - Another thing it got me wondering on is if it depends on what minerals are actually being imported into the refinery? - e.g. I don't think my extraction locations nearby are creating any Haematite so technically, I shouldn't expect to see Steel refined and therefore be at the Planetary Outpost? (maybe I'm thinking too complex for what the actual system is doing - i.e. just random).
It also made me wonder - probably a very silly question but what do these mean within the attributes of building a colony (I've put my best guesses on some but grateful for any thoughts)
- Population Increase: The immediate rise in the system's population upon completing the facility?
- Maximum Population: The maximum cap to which the system's population can grow as a result of the new facility? - if so does it mean populations continue to increase after a build on some colonies? (i.e. over time)
- Security: Represents the safety and stability within the system. Higher security levels can reduce crime and piracy? Lower security promotes pirate activity /missions?
- Tech Level: Not sure about this one but what would increasing tech level lead to? - more expensive commodities?
- Wealth: Reflects the economic prosperity of the colony, potentially influencing trade volumes?
- Standard of Living: Does this influence population growth and happiness?
- Development Level: Not sure what this one means either - any thoughts?
It's doubtful only because this is also how other odyssey markets work.
but that is exactly what they announced to do - how else you want get eco-influence to a station which orbits a non-landable or the primary star....
Population might, though see below on "how do you increase this anyway?"
Imports is unlikely if only because - other than the obvious ore to metal chains reflected in the Refinery contact - how would you link specific products up anyway.
The other thing is that the switchover can lose previous production.
- my Agri outpost was producing Algae, Fruit and Grain
- I built an extraction settlement a few moons away
- it now produces Hydrogen Fuel, Tea and Leather
Neither the loss of Algae production nor the appearance in Leather production can really be explained directly by my system having more extraction production than it previously did.
Correct. It's imprecise (and no chevrons doesn't mean no increase at all, it just means "increase less than one chevron")
It certainly implies that, but if so no-one has figured out how to do it yet, that I know of.
Yes - low security is required for Interstellar Factors, higher levels reduce supercruise piracy and the chances of mission enemies showing up. May also have other as yet unknown effects in the context of colonisation.
These are all much more of a mystery since unlike Security (which at least shows up on the map in the broad low/medium/high terms) these are completely hidden variables and Frontier has never explained anything much about them, or provided any way to see their values in-game.
Tech Level may affect which station services are available at some stations. It may affect what you get in Outfitting/Shipyard if you have those services.
Development Level appears to be the one with the most significant effect on station production levels, but that needs further testing to confirm, and it's not that the others don't have any effects
Thanks for this! really insightful cmdr! o7
It'll be interesting to see what further tweaks they apply to the colonisation functionality (particularly on the influencing economy strand).
Wondering if anyone's made a specific thread that shares their bases etc (just to see how everyone is doing - at least from an aesthetic place) I see there's a thread about systems and planets but not sure if there's a dedicated thread for showing our bases.
It'll be interesting to see what further tweaks they apply to the colonisation functionality (particularly on the influencing economy strand).
Wondering if anyone's made a specific thread that shares their bases etc (just to see how everyone is doing - at least from an aesthetic place) I see there's a thread about systems and planets but not sure if there's a dedicated thread for showing our bases.
That might be a fair question if they were just done taking off from that 25G world.
The issue that GalNet confirmed uses some specific language and some loose language. It is very specifically talking about orbital starports, so this rule about the planetside settlements influencing the station economy *only applies to Coriolis and Orbis according to that announcement.
The loose language about bodies and orbits doesn't make it clear whether or not a moon of a moon would pick up the planetside settlement effects, and the consensus in the fact-based discussion on the forum seems to be that it doesn't, but I just want to note that the GalNet announcement is not clear either way. Paul's put a pretty heavy hint there that it might change in the near future, too.
However, separate to all of that, there are other, unrelated (and undocumented) rules which affect system-wide economy weightings, and another bunch of rules which affect some Outposts that create a specific economy type on that Outpost when built.
So that's at least three things going on here, and the GalNet "clarification" only narrows down one of them a bit. Therefore don't leap to too many conclusions, but you can narrowly assume if you build Refinery stuffs on a body and there is a Coriolis orbiting that specific body the Coriolis will skew towards Refinery and therefore you should get some Insulating Membrane. Even if the economy is not labelled Refinery overall.
If you want an as-is BGS comparison, of the 9 stations I used one way or another to get Membranes only 3 of them were actually labelled Refinery; 5 of them were in three systems shown as exporting Refinery on the map, and the other four you'd have no clue the 1-2t of Membrane was there unless you visited or you used the market comparison stuffs from the Market UI.
I just thought I'd have a rant because I see a lot of comments that talk about one rule and assuming that has to be the only possible rule that has any effect, and that ain't so.
The loose language about bodies and orbits doesn't make it clear whether or not a moon of a moon would pick up the planetside settlement effects, and the consensus in the fact-based discussion on the forum seems to be that it doesn't, but I just want to note that the GalNet announcement is not clear either way. Paul's put a pretty heavy hint there that it might change in the near future, too.
However, separate to all of that, there are other, unrelated (and undocumented) rules which affect system-wide economy weightings, and another bunch of rules which affect some Outposts that create a specific economy type on that Outpost when built.
So that's at least three things going on here, and the GalNet "clarification" only narrows down one of them a bit. Therefore don't leap to too many conclusions, but you can narrowly assume if you build Refinery stuffs on a body and there is a Coriolis orbiting that specific body the Coriolis will skew towards Refinery and therefore you should get some Insulating Membrane. Even if the economy is not labelled Refinery overall.
If you want an as-is BGS comparison, of the 9 stations I used one way or another to get Membranes only 3 of them were actually labelled Refinery; 5 of them were in three systems shown as exporting Refinery on the map, and the other four you'd have no clue the 1-2t of Membrane was there unless you visited or you used the market comparison stuffs from the Market UI.
I just thought I'd have a rant because I see a lot of comments that talk about one rule and assuming that has to be the only possible rule that has any effect, and that ain't so.
yep, you are right in that regard.
The other stuff - well, you compare apples and peaches. The markets you did go to are generic FDev-Systems which did have their Eco implemented top-down and structures/installations added AFTER THE FACT (and subsequently through the iterations of the game).
Trailblazer is a complete different kind of shoes - here we have to build bottom to Top....
Most of the pre-existing Bubble ports were old, whereas the proper test subject should be a new colony... say, Colonia... so what economy and commodities does Jaques Station have? Besides the hand-built Rare of his Quinentian Still, of course.
Exactly why I waited for others to do all the testing in beta to figure out how the damn thing works before putting in effort myself.
Colonia was made by FDev using their generic system (same with Pleiades, Witch-Head, Coalsack, Lagoon etc). Trailblazer is completely different. Thats the reason you cannot copy a FDev-Layout and expect it to work
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Jaques is about the least plausible station to use for anything on the NPC side, since it's been repeatedly hand-edited by Frontier away from any normal procedural behaviour. All major dockables in Colonia have some element of Frontier hand-editing, for that matter - generally to boost their productivity above what the system population would normally "allow", or to ensure that all the old CEI surface bases are "comparable", or similar.
There are interesting bits of information from observations of Colonia which can be applied to colonisation - but nothing in terms of "how might stations depend on each other" can be learnt there any more than the old procedural bubble can provide that.
I would say these are all consequences of a single (largely documented, if perhaps a bit too concisely) ruleset:
- economy: has this economy intrinsically on itself, doesn't influence other economies
- 'system' economy influence: misnamed by Frontier in the English translation (and apparently even worse in Russian), should be called "body economy influence", affects the economy of all major stations (i.e. not settlements or hubs) on/around that body to convert them away from Colony and towards the Influence
- "system economy": as it always has been for the last decade, just a weighted sum of station economies, which doesn't intrinsically affect anything back on the stations themselves (it just changes your system colour in the galaxy map filter)
Some constructions have both economy and system economy influence, and both then apply.
I'm not aware of any discovered exceptions to that yet. What cases are you thinking of?
So is this the rule?
Outposts have a "local" economy of the type you'd expect for the type of Outpost (assuming all the Outposts are labelled the right way around in the UI!)
- Installations will drag the system-wide economy in one direction or another
- Installations will drag starports which share their surface or immediate orbit
- Installations will not influence Outposts at all
I was just looking for that bit about poor translations / wording, yeah, I knew we'd discussed that somewhere. This speaks directly to the point of this here GalNet announcement.
Get the sentiment I think, but, point of order...
1. "just a weighted sum of station economies" strictly contradicts
2. "Some constructions have system economy influence"
Unless - in this second rule, you mean "system-in-the-sense-FDev-have-misused-the-word" and what you mean here is "some constructions have influence on anything in their body scope, which in turn influences the entire multi-body system via the as-is weighted average mechanism for whole-system economy"
I think I'm more worried about properly qualifying "that" so we can pick holes in "exceptions to that" ...
Orbital Outposts have three distinct types - as shown accurately for each in the build interface
- Industrial, Military and High-Tech: these have a non-Colony economy, and no SEI property. These just have their economy (though a nearby SEI can supplement it)
- Commercial and Civilian: these have a Colony economy, and no SEI property. These have a Colony economy until something else with a SEI replaces it
- Criminal: this has a Colony economy, and a Contraband SEI. This influences itself to the Contraband economy [1], and also applies SEI to its local area.
[1] Which is shown as "Service" in the map and station interfaces, despite not behaving anything like a pre-colonisation Service economy, because Frontier ... couldn't add an extra colour for "Contraband" to the galaxy map?
Installations:
- have no intrinsic economy so should never influence the weighted system-wide economy sum just by existing
- usually (though not always) have SEI so influence things in orbit/on their body
Hubs:
- have an intrinsic economy (which may not be shown in the build interface...) so will influence the weighted system-wide economy sum by existing
- have SEI so influence things in orbit/on their body
Settlements
- all have matching economy and SEI values, so they have their own production and also influence the production of "nearby" stations
Outposts, Planetary Outposts, Coriolis, Asteroid Base, Orbis, Ocellus, Planetary Cities
- all have a default economy
- other than the criminal outpost, do not emit SEI
- all can receive SEI from nearby installations/hubs/settlement/criminal outposts which will replace Colony economy components or supplement non-Colony components
- all are much larger economies [2] than any of the Installations/Hubs/Settlements (even the T1 orbital outposts are 4-5x bigger than the biggest Settlement)
Exactly that.
I call it SEI because if I call it anything else that might be clearer [2] it's then even less obvious what property I'm talking about.
[2] Well. Okay. SEI - if applied correctly (and as quietly documented...) in terms of placements - will convert the economies of your big stations to the SEI type. That will have a much greater effect on the weighted sums of the station economies than the asset emitting SEI does on its own. So if you have a Colony Orbis, and an Asteroid Base for a Colony/Extraction system economy, and then you add a bunch of Industrial SEI around the Orbis, your system economy will shift to Industrial/Extraction primarily because of the change on the Orbis, rather than the intrinsic economy size of your settlements and hubs. So in that sense, the SEI is "influencing the system economy weighted sum"
So some of the confusion comes from this being the first time in ten years that any player has had to care that much about the distinction between "system economy" and "station economy" in the first place [3]. If you already understand how this all works - waves at Frontier devs - then SEI is potentially a perfectly sensible name for the overall outcome of placing those constructions!
(This is what happens when the devs play their own game: they use their background understanding of all the secret stuff to think they've explained things perfectly well.)
[3] See also: this is only the second time in ten years that the rare ability of "understanding how the in-game economy works" has massively outclassed "getting EDDB/Inara to replace your thinking" as a way of achieving hauling/logistics goals. A lot of this we should already know and understand by the time we're Elite Traders, but are never actually made to by the rest of the game. Frontier of course does understand this stuff, so forgets most players don't.
There are two ways to get an Extraction economy on a major dockable station.
- If you have an asteroid belt cluster or planetary ring slot, put an Asteroid Base in it. That comes with a built-in Extraction economy. This is the "easy" way.
- Build an outpost or station with a Colony economy type, then put something with "System Economy Influence: Extraction" either in orbit around the same body, or on that body's surface if landable. Your options for this are "Orbital Installation Mining Outpost", "Surface Settlement Extraction" or "Surface Hub Extraction". (The Large Surface Settlement is probably best for converting the economy type; the other options have their own advantages and disadvantages)
Thanks for the whole comment, all brilliantly useful. Responses to parts of it below...
There is the issue that the goods might be legit at the other end of your trade anyway, so labelling things "Contraband" at GalMap level would get tricky. It's more like labelling it Anarchy, which gets you back into the whole "Anarchy" v "Lawless" v "actually not populated thus any ship you encounter is a passing ship in international waters*" discussion.
* international waters do have rules about piracy and salvage so intersystem space is actually even wilder than that...
I think I might have found another clue to what's going on there with the bug, because in my system, all four possible Tier 2 Research Stations seem to want me to build a Tier 1 bioscience installation first. Except... I can't find one to build, so I am unsure what it means by this dependency. Smells like two defects interacting.
Anyway. Love the "SEI" label - can I steal that for the Wiki? "Emitting SEI" fits very nicely in my way of thinking about it.
Brill, thanks. It's interesting the criminal element is the oddball. I'm sure adding "Contraband" to the galaxy map will be done when FDev finally get around to realising that one should be able to buy things from black markets too.
There is the issue that the goods might be legit at the other end of your trade anyway, so labelling things "Contraband" at GalMap level would get tricky. It's more like labelling it Anarchy, which gets you back into the whole "Anarchy" v "Lawless" v "actually not populated thus any ship you encounter is a passing ship in international waters*" discussion.
* international waters do have rules about piracy and salvage so intersystem space is actually even wilder than that...
Thought so but wasn't 100%.
And have a live bug where some are labelled the wrong way around in the UI, so you ask for one Installation and you get a different one.
I think I might have found another clue to what's going on there with the bug, because in my system, all four possible Tier 2 Research Stations seem to want me to build a Tier 1 bioscience installation first. Except... I can't find one to build, so I am unsure what it means by this dependency. Smells like two defects interacting.
Anyway. Love the "SEI" label - can I steal that for the Wiki? "Emitting SEI" fits very nicely in my way of thinking about it.
Yeah that is the subtlety I was poking around for I think.
"Force multiplier" innit.
That is an eternal problem with documenting engineering, whether it's data, software, or hardware.