I love E:D But really?

[galahad2069]

By a strick definition, it's pay to win, but pilot skill will be be much more of a factor, some nube isn't being given God mode much less an average player. There is an advantage, but it is insignificant.

Noob vs veteran is the worst possible example you can come up with to argue whether or not something is p2w.

You can give a noob a fully engineered meta FDL and still be able to beat them using a Vulture or something. That does not make the FDL not meta.

The meta is what two equally skilled CMDRs need to use to able to stand a chance against the other one.

 

[Pville_Piper]

Noob vs veteran is the worst possible example you can come up with to argue whether is not something is p2w.

You can give a noob a fully engineered meta FDL and still be able to beat them using a Vulture or something. That does not make the FDL not meta.

The meta is what two equally skilled CMDRs need to use to able to stand a chance against the other one.

Never said it was meta, just illustrating that it's not over powered and skill is more important.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Noob vs veteran is the worst possible example you can come up with to argue whether is not something is p2w.

You can give a noob a fully engineered meta FDL and still be able to beat them using a Vulture or something. That does not make the FDL not meta.

The meta is what two equally skilled CMDRs need to use to able to stand a chance against the other one.

But why would an established player pay cash (P2W) for a ship they can buy ingame with credits? And then re-outfit & engineer to fit their specific needs?


The only answer I can think of is Early Access for a couple months. Of course the Python2 used in examples here is past the Early Access stage. But it is true that paying for early access can possibly give an established player an advantage for a couple months. As mentioned above a good example is if they released Panther Clipper for early access.

 

[galahad2069]

Never said it was meta, just illustrating that it's not over powered and skill is more important.

Never said skill was unimportant, but how powerful does something need to be to qualify as 'overpowered'? Better than the second best tool by a factor of 10? 5? 2? Even if it's only 2% better at some specific job, that will give you and edge over another person who is equally skilled as you. And if the tool is only available for real money, it's hard to describe it as anything else than p2w, even by the narrowest possible definition.

 

[galahad2069]

But why would an established player pay cash (P2W) for a ship they can buy ingame with credits?

Because it's not available for credits?

 

[Greasetrap42]

Because it's not available for credits?

I suppose its my mistake that you didn't read my whole post?

 

[vanFace]

As mentioned above a good example is if they released Panther Clipper for early access.

What they could do is releasing a game changer super-hauler as ARX-only AND double the mat numbers for colonization. This would feed the slippery-slope narrative of those being afraid of P2W mechanics. I doubt that this will happen, but it is not inconceivable.

 

[galahad2069]

I suppose its my mistake that you didn't read my whole post?

I did, and came to pretty much the same conclusion.
I.e. because it's in early access and it's going to remain that way for an unknown period of time.
And maybe there will be an event next week where everyone will use that ship and you want to participate.
Or you just do the math and decide that the lower rebuy will be useful in the long run.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Never said skill was unimportant, but how powerful does something need to be to qualify as 'overpowered'? Better than the second best tool by a factor of 10? 5? 2? Even if it's only 2% better at some specific job, that will give you and edge over another person who is equally skilled as you. And if the tool is only available for real money, it's hard to describe it as anything else than p2w, even by the narrowest possible definition.

So, here's the thing, FDev are going to keep doing it and no-one is going to do anything about it because largely we're all happy that we're getting new ships at all for the first time since 2018.

These threads to the rest of us:

 

[Stealthie]

I'm not sure you can actually have real P2W in a game that has a solo mode.

As for ED, specifically, I don't think any of the Arx ships allow you to do stuff that regular ships can't do.
They might allow you to do stuff better (and cheaper if you take advantage of the deployable ship with it's zero-cost modules) but there's nothing fundamentally superior about them.

It'd be foolish to deny that there's an element of commercialism about all this though.
If I was being cynical I might assume FDev have deliberately starved us of new ships for several years so we'd be ready to pay cash-money for a new ship when it arrives.
Honestly, though, I suspect that's really more just the result of FDev kind of setting ED aside for a while though.
Regardless, I'm okay with that.
Based on what's already happened, new ships WILL eventually be available for in-game credits and that seems pretty reasonable to me.
If, OTOH, FDev were to decide that certain ships should remain Arx-only, that'd leave a sour taste in the mouth.
People just have to overcome the whole FOMO thing and be prepared to wait if they don't want to spend money on new toys.

So far, I've bought 3 new ships and waited for 2 to be available for credits... and, honestly, the ship that was the biggest game-changer for me was the Python 2, which I bought for credits.
Conversely, I paid Arx for my Mandalay and, for what I use it for, it's not that much better than the Phantom it replaced.
Most recently, I paid for a Corsair and it's still sat in ShinDez until I can figure out what to do with it.
Point being, most of the Arx ships aren't super-ships that totally spank everything that's already in the game.
Mostly, you're just paying for a new toy to play with.

The only exception is, really, the Cobra 5, which is crazy-powerful for a small ship... but it is still only a small ship.
Given the fact that you can take a medium ship to 99% of places that you can take a small ship, there's very little you can use a CM5 for that you can't use a KM2 or Python for instead.

 

[galahad2069]

So, here's the thing, FDev are going to keep doing it and no-one is going to do anything about it because largely we're all happy that we're getting new ships at all for the first time since 2018.

These threads to the rest of us: View attachment 426695

I never said you should quit having fun. Neither did I say that everyone had to grab their torches and pitchforks because fdev dared to put p2w elements in their game.

My only point was that having fun does not mean that you need to sugarcoat it and pretend it's not p2w while it quite obviously is.

 

[BackToTheMud]

Ship personalities are available here.

That's about as much of a personality as lip filler is.

 

[Greasetrap42]

My only point was that having fun does not mean that you need to sugarcoat it and pretend it's not p2w while it quite obviously is.

IMO Frontier is skimming the edge of the slippery slope. They are right on the hairy edge, possibly slightly over the hair edge with the Early Access.

I think Frontier is playing a dangerous game with Early Access. Because we Know Frontier makes frequent mistakes and doesn't check & correct stuff very well. Quality Control is poor. So its just a matter of time that they accidentally release a ship for Early Access ARX that vastly out performs other ships. But it was sold... for ARX. And now its in the game. Hypothetical? Yes. Possible? Very.

 

[Elyssaen]

So far, I've bought 3 new ships and waited for 2 to be available for credits... and, honestly, the ship that was the biggest game-changer for me was the Python 2, which I bought for credits.

How're you using that ship, and do you have a Coriolis build? I came back to this game a week or two ago after years away, and so far have only bought the Corsair. I never finished my rank journey to get a Cutter, nor can I afford one yet, so I don't want to throw too much money around yet, but I'm a bit tempted by the Py2. On the other hand I'm not quite sure what I'd use it for (my multi-role Corsair can handle all human PvE – just about) and the poor internal space of the Py2 feels crushing.

 

[Vedmo]

I never said you should quit having fun. Neither did I say that everyone had to grab their torches and pitchforks because fdev dared to put p2w elements in their game.

My only point was that having fun does not mean that you need to sugarcoat it and pretend it's not p2w while it quite obviously is.

Everyone must be put into one of two neatly labeled and diametrically opposed boxes to prevent the cataclysm that would surely follow if someone were to accidentally think outside of the predetermined narrative that keeps our choices simple and righteous.

 

[Elyssaen]

I think Frontier is playing a dangerous game with Early Access. Because we Know Frontier makes frequent mistakes and doesn't check & correct stuff very well. Quality Control is poor. So its just a matter of time that they accidentally release a ship for Early Access ARX that vastly out performs other ships. But it was sold... for ARX. And now its in the game. Hypothetical? Yes. Possible? Very.

Interesting point. I was thinking about the colonisation version of this problem: the bubble is now surrounded by a shell of inhabited systems that players might've paid real money on (naming stations). Can Frontier now have any kind of conflict/crisis that destroys stations and depopulates systems?

They risk really tying their hands with their recent choices, unless they're willing to see players regret their purchases (or refund them).

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I never said you should quit having fun. Neither did I say that everyone had to grab their torches and pitchforks because fdev dared to put p2w elements in their game.

My only point was that having fun does not mean that you need to sugarcoat it and pretend it's not p2w while it quite obviously is.

You didn't, no. You didn't create the thread after all. It's difficult to see how its pay to win when I'm sat on over 10 billion in credits and assets, I'm a King, Admiral, 4 elite ranks (exobiology will get there when I can be bothered doing it for an extended time), powerplay rank of approx 130, I have 35 fully engineered ships with full mats bins to make more, which I'm struggling for ideas for and a fully upgraded fleet carrier with about 5 years of upkeep stored in it.

What does a Cobra mkV even offer me? How do I win with this ship where I'm not doing so already?

 

[galahad2069]

How're you using that ship, and do you have a Coriolis build? I came back to this game a week or two ago after years away, and so far have only bought the Corsair. I never finished my rank journey to get a Cutter, nor can I afford one yet, so I don't want to throw too much money around yet, but I'm a bit tempted by the Py2. On the other hand I'm not quite sure what I'd use it for (my multi-role Corsair can handle all human PvE – just about) and the poor internal space of the Py2 feels crushing.

Python2 is not actually a Python, it's a pure combat ship, and pretty good at that. Anaconda level of dps on a well shielded medium ship.
T8 is a good medium hauler and handles pretty well.
Mandalay is an awesome ship, it has a good flight model both in normal space and supercruise, and it's not only a taxi (explorer) but it can do combat as well.
Cobra5 is the most OP small combat ship in the entire game. Fast and tanky as hell.
Corsair is pretty meh. It's a better version of the 1v1mebro cope banktank Python, but that's about it. It suffers from a (less severe) form of the Orca/Krait/DBS disease (weak boost).

 

[galahad2069]

What does a Cobra mkV even offer me? How do I win with this ship where I'm not doing so already?

You can fly around shieldless in Open with something like 4.5k hitpoints worth of funny hull and put out medium-ship level of dps using short range rails.
(Significantly improved version of the shieldless Viper4.)

 

[Pville_Piper]

I'm not sure you can actually have real P2W in a game that has a solo mode.

Or in a game that allows you to high wake out of a situation... You can say that it's pay to win, but it's irrelevant.

Combat is a choice and you can only lose if you choose to.