Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Damn you! Kept clicking on the like in the image instead of the like on the actual post!
Today in how to spot a shill account
robertsspaceindustries.com
A Genuine Open Letter of Thanks and Congratulations to CIG, from a long-term backer - Star Citizen Spectrum
There are plenty of posts with critique, complaint, and all manner of negative or neutral-tone messages. I wanted to write the following as a mote of positivity. Dear CIG, I've been around...
robertsspaceindustries.com
Shrach's guesstimate on CIG's current financials / the need for the loan etc
I think their financial position is probably something like this now.
Probably worth pointing out that in 2025 they wouldn't have the $17m tax credits from 2024 nor the $4.25m tax credits from 2025 yet, which would reduce the current net position of ~$14m into some negative figure. I think this sort of ballpark figure is reasonable and explains why they needed to borrow money directly from the shareholders and raise more capital. The $10m figure in blue for 2025 assumes that the investment of $5m into the UK group is both accurate and also an additional $5m was invested into the UK [US?] group in line with previous investments being split equally between the two entities.
Looking at the UK group accounts, moved the subcontractors into the employees. Subscriptions took a slight hit in 2023 and costs skyrocketed so yeah. Maybe they cut back expenditure in 2024 somewhat before they zeroed out the bank accounts entirely but who knows.
Another feature that quietly stopped working...
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1k3tlaf/do_we_not_get_inspected_anymore/
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1k3tlaf/do_we_not_get_inspected_anymore/
That was one improvement I liked. After all, the darn thing never worked properly. You'd be in the middle of docking, and get fined and shot at for not submitting to an inspection that, as far as you were aware, never happened.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
2 figures there, at least, that sound extremely questionable in those estimates: The employee number in 2024 and 2025, given all the firing we have seen since 2023 (and we have only seen the public facing visible part). And of course the pledge counter, taken at face value by Shrach there.
The transfer between Subcontracts and Salaries due to the Turbulent acquisition is extremely dodgy aswell. Subcontracts only drop 8 mill in 2023, whereas salaries increase by 25 mill. That does not make any sense unless they multiplied ex Turbulent employees salaries by a factor of 3 after acquisition... Even after taking into account some possible non Turbulent new hires during the year the increase in the salaries line should have been in a similar ballpark to the drop in subcontracts line as most of the Turbulent former bill was the salaries of their employees obviously. This further supports the notion that the employee number asumed by Shrach there is probably way too high.
In a minimally efficient and reasonable acquisition the increase in salaries should have actually been quite a lot less than the drop in subcontracts as one of the main points of acquisitions like this is precisely to reduce costs / synergy.
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Well, that might be so in a normal company, but this is truly never-been-done-before management of a company.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
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I don't think shrach is taking the tracker at face value, so much as comparing CIG's various info streams, and then noting any disparities such as the missing $2mil in 2020.
The redundancy rounds only started in earnest from Jan 2024, so a staffing slope up for 2023 seems fine to me, and fits with Linkedin's company staffing summaries etc.
The 2023 wage bump is a mystery in some respects, but it's reflected in the UK filings etc, so alongside the above extrapolating across the group as a whole doesn't seem that wild a step.
I think the lore is that the UK took over more PU work from the US. While there probably would be an overlap (hire in UK first, fire in US later), there should be reduced wages in the US. Would be a shame if there weren't.
The Turbulent buyout was also billed as wages if I read that right.
Edit: only £500k in 2023, the rest in 2024?
"In addition to the total consideration mentioned above, payments of £1,945,744, deferred over a two year
period, are due to the selling shareholders. These payments are accounted for as employment costs as they
are linked to continuing employment. A charge of £486,436 has been recognised in the 2023 financial
statements."
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Shrach´s is asuming that in addition to the Turbulent acquisition (some ~200 people) CIG increased global staffing in around 150 more staff in 2023 and 100 more in 2024, (!!) which we know is very likely wrong. And that all were paid at the average cost used of 70K.
As a start I find it extremely unlikely that CIG continued with such levels of new hiring in a year where management knew they were going to have some 200+ new employees disembarking from Turbulent.
But even if that was the case, the Subcontractor cost drop should have been of around (200x70K) 14 mill as a minimum, and probably more around 17 or 18 mill if we include Turbulent expenses, overheads and margins as a business that would be included in the bill etc. Now, the Subcontractor expense is just marked in Shrach´s table at 10 mill in 2022 (8 mill in 2021...) and it just drops to 2 mill in 2023. This is like if CIG was telling us that Turbulent costed them at most 8 mill... So we are talking at least doubling salary for those new Turbulent hires (if we believe in ~150 regular 70K non Turbulent new hires in the same year too). Which does not compute.
And which suggests that either CIG was not showing the correct levels of subcontractor expenditure in the blog and the money was instead going elsewhere, or simply that the 2023 salaries are mostly UK based only (54 GBP millions as per filing, or 72 USDm of the 81 USDm total in Shrachs table), leaving the US with a skeleton crew of 100-150 70K employees tops already in 2023 anyways. Or, if we still think 1200 staff is the actual number, with 350 in the US in 2023, then we need to also believe they were paid at an average rate of 25K USD including social security etc.
I am pretty sure that quiet but significant layoffs or transfers to the UK were done during 2023, and it is only at the end of that year that we started seeing some evidence. Overall this suggests CIG global staff in 2023 did not significantly exceed ~950-1000 people including Turbulent.
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Yep that projection is v likely wrong.
What are you basing this on though? We had gossip of small scale layoffs for 2023, but nothing approaching the proof / layoffs at scale that started in 2024 (with the public Linkedin departures & complainants all dating their departures as starting at Jan 2024 and beyond).
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Yeah, this is just based on Shrachs estimate for total 2023 wages costs, 81 USDm, which if correct should be mostly UK based only (54 GBP millions as per filing, or 72 USDm of the 81 USDm total in Shrachs table), leaving the US with a skeleton crew of 100-150 employees tops at 70K already in 2023 anyways.
Or, if we still think 1200 staff is the actual number, with 350 in the US in 2023, then we need to also believe they were paid at an average rate of 25K USD including social security etc.
So it is either that or Shrachs wages estimate is wrong and it is much higher than 81m. For 350 non UK staff to be at 70K that would mean total CIG wages would be 72m (UK filings) + 24m (US based at 350x70K) = 97m of real wages. And then CIG would be in a totally different world of hurt.
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Ah ok. Well it's just a guesstimate, and running off even fewer data points than usual. I wouldn't read much into it.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
No, the info is still pretty useful as a reference point, because if he is wrong and we actually had 350 US staff at 70K (to stay at 1200 total employees) in 2023 then the total wages cost for CIG comes around 97 USDm, not 81. And the real loss in 2023 would probably be double of what Shrach estimates anyways, closer to 30 USDm instead. Which is scary and I would not be very comfortable agreeing to.
Instead, given Turbulents acquisition was probably not done overnight and CIG was fully aware this was happening earlier in the year (if not the year before) I would be surprised if CIG just hired an extra 150 people net on top of the 200 Turbulent that year. It makes sense that 2023 was also a year of significant push regarding layoffs and/or transfers to the UK and we just saw more signs towards the end of the year. Which would support the notion of a lower total staff figure around the 950-1000 mark instead of 1200.
If this is correct, it would also suggest that CIG may be pretty much abandoning its US side of the business or leaving it to the minimum expression. Which would make sense if you want to return to the black, generate margins and eventually pay out investor returns.
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Oh yeah this is almost certainly what's happening. Austin is heavily reduced, LA closed etc. Austin may just limp on as a nominal entity.
I see ongoing trends in this latest departure after ~1yr...
(And also trauma bonding in the dev list. With an expectation that a few more of the 1-2yr tenure ones will leave within the year)
Interesting...
(Given the previous dialogue designer who left was on both SC & SQ42, gotta wonder whether the new push for '1.0' narratives is adding unreasonable expectations onto a team that was already quitting in high numbers previously, presumably over SQ42 travails alone.)
EDIT: Oh and they're currently looking for 3 networking programmers (1 Snr, 1 Principle) in the UK, and a Lead Online Programmer in Montreal. Server Meshing behind us?
. (Recruitment definitely seems to be more heavily weighted towards Snr+ at the mo. 26 of the 51 job offerings currently are for Snrs. Lots of barista and admin chaff in there too, not just dev roles, so it's over 50% for sure. Alongside a seemingly unquenchable desire for lower level AI programmers for some reason
. I guess the promo splurge is mopping up the rest of the roles.)
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"I used to be a citizen of the star like you, then I took a knee in my Arrow."In SC, anything is possible...
(Including being killed by your own leg armour
---
It probably is time for some kind of raffle though. We should all draw years from 2025 to infinity. Whoever gets the SQ42 release date gets some branded FUDev trousers
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My friend on Unst has just had the same experience. And even got paid for the inconvenience. Win-win!Yet another off-topic post...quelle surprise
Just had the telecom guys dig up my front garden to install my full fibre connection yesterday....1.6Gbps of t'interwebs full fat nonsense now. I must admit, downloading games in minutes rather than hours is a nice novelty