New ship: Panther Clipper

I did try to do some checking on this a few days back. Long story short, it's actually really difficult to automatically detect that a system is part of a chain in a way that matches intuitive definitions well and isn't really susceptible to missing data messing things up. Still, allowing that some colonisation will have made systems which were originally part of a chain now have enough development around them that it won't be clear which one was the original chain ... maybe around 5-10% of systems were originally colonised as part of chains to somewhere else.

There are probably more posts complaining about people building bridging outposts (I'm not counting yours as one) than there are actual bridging outposts.


The FSD is the most obvious truly revolutionary change - going from it taking multiple weeks for even a fast ship to cross the bubble in 3290 and in-system commuting taking a couple of days, to even an E-grade FSD being able to make the trip in a few hours and in-system commuting taking minutes, and this change coming in extremely rapidly in a couple of years compared with the multiple centuries the same pace of change took on the scale of Earth.

And that's why genuinely revolutionary changes - to which "what if a box, but bigger?" really doesn't count as so I'm not going to ask how the thread got onto this... - don't happen very often: working through all the implications is way too much effort (and in the case of the FSD, one Frontier largely avoided doing either)


SCO in isolation is great - it replaces the boring bits of supercruise which for a decade had been "the most optimal move is not to touch the controls for two-to-twenty minutes" with a hands-on and skill-based way to travel from A to B. It's a far more interesting solution to the "big systems" problem than the average "microjumps" player suggestion, interacts well with the bits of supercruise which were already fun, brings in a much greater variation of ship-to-ship performance in supercruise as well (I don't just mean the difference between new and old ships), etc.

The problem is that it also sticks the final nail in the coffin of the original Elite/FE2/FFE design for trade as a profession. It was only the final nail, of course - supercruise itself had essentially 95% killed it already with no replacement for a decade, so SCO was the right thing to do - but it leaves trade (and other hauling tasks like Colonisation) in a fairly thin spot for game design.

The previous three games had non-optional pirate attacks in almost all systems, and evading or escaping an encounter was extremely difficult compared with trivial. So your trade profit was essentially your reward for surviving those attacks and defeating the pirates (you got token bounties for the kills too, but very much like the few thousand credits original ED also gave). That meant that your trade ship had to consider how it was going to fight off the pirates, and in an insecure system fight off multiple consecutive bands of pirates. A "medium security"-equivalent system in the earlier games would be comparable to a CG system in Open in terms of number of expected encounters (though not in terms of strength of those encounters, necessarily!); a "low security" or "Anarchy" one would be pretty much constant fighting from star to station.

ED broke that - there often won't be a pirate in supercruise, they often won't have time to interdict especially if you're not following the 0:06 Rules For Getting Interdicted book, the interdiction is (easily) beatable if they do, and you can low wake before they scratch even paper shields if that fails. So now trade profit isn't your reward for completing an exciting spacelanes battle ... it's your reward for flying from A to B for a few minutes while nothing much happens. (SCO means that you can pretty much have dropped out at the destination system before any pirate has time to spawn and notice you exist)

And that means that there's not much to do with the "freighter" design space in Elite Dangerous other than "bigger box". The whole "journey-based" gameplay of the original games is dead, replaced with going to specific POIs for specific types of fun. And that works okay for combat or exploration or missions, but doesn't work for hauling because the destination is the "safe" station at each end.

This is not fixable [1], so SCO was a good idea to fix some of the other problems of supercruise instead. But hauling still doesn't really work.


[1] I don't mean that there's technically no way to do it - I can think of fairly conceptually simple ways to bring both interdiction and piracy up to Elite/FE2 levels even with SCO - I mean that the game has spent almost exactly a decade (mid-2015 being the important patch note) committing to PvE combat being optional, and both attracting and enculturing players and designing ships and other game mechanics on that basis. It would be a "revolutionary change" on the scale of the FSD, but taking place during rather than before the game.
Thanks Ian, for a balanced viewpoint on Supercruise. Interdictions are scripted events, more so than ever, it wasn't that long ago, when you could see on the Radar the approaching pirates as they tried to lock on. However, one change I have seen is that you can get attacked at the colonisation end point, so I guess that change is being tested by FDEV. In regards to reward for hauling, there is more reward than for engineering - at least you can get Elite in Trade ;) Here's to designing a silly OP build for the Panther Clipper for 0 reward and Kudos in-game....and also Inara.
 
Thanks Ian, for a balanced viewpoint on Supercruise. Interdictions are scripted events, more so than ever, it wasn't that long ago, when you could see on the Radar the approaching pirates as they tried to lock on.
You still can? Or at least, I still can. Occasionally they'll drop off the radar because of relative speed differences - that bug/feature has been around for years - but I've never had them able to entirely surprise me that way or been attacked by a pirate I genuinely didn't know was already there. If you're heading straight-line for a planet and there's a pirate following you from the star with a good interdictor you might not see them on the radar before they attack (because the interdictor is probably 7-16 seconds at their speed and the radar is 45 seconds at your speed, so they only need to be going 3-6x faster before you don't see them, which is trivial when you're close to the planet) but that doesn't mean that they weren't there all along or that the interdiction was scripted.

(If you don't do straight-line approaches, you're moving faster and also aren't conveniently facing away from them, which makes them way easier to see)

However, one change I have seen is that you can get attacked at the colonisation end point, so I guess that change is being tested by FDEV.
I think that's just a side-effect of colonisation delivery points not projecting a NFZ, so pirates appearing in that instance (including those following you from supercruise) continue the attack rather than immediately leaving. I'm not convinced it's intentional, especially since orbital delivery points have enough firepower to enforce the NFZ anyway so the attacks just result in instant pirate explosion.

In regards to reward for hauling, there is more reward than for engineering - at least you can get Elite in Trade ;) Here's to designing a silly OP build for the Panther Clipper for 0 reward and Kudos in-game....and also Inara.
Hauling still has plenty of reward, absolutely - credits, rank, reputation, mission completions, colonies, etc. It's just that what the reward is for has changed significantly, so that it's for spending time in game rather than overcoming some sort of combat challenge.

(Which goes back to the point I made earlier that the FE2/FFE Panther was not "the biggest freight box", but "a warship which can carry all your guns and shields and still have room for plenty of cargo". In ED there's not really a niche for that sort of armed trader.)
 
I think people are forgetting that Colonization opens up a bunch of gameplay loops. Beyond just hauling which is a major part, you have the BGS to tend to as well. Security to manage, the economy side of it.

On its surface, sure.. it's moving a lot of cargo from point A to point B. But if you truly engage with colonization as designed, you will find it pushes into other gameplay loops as you work to get a new system into shape.

The Panther Clipper MK II, a 50-61% increase in cargo capacity is one tool you'd use out of five to actually finish a system.
 
Well I'm thinking that FDev has us all by the short and curlie's, The PCII as is, is a cut above what we have no doubt, but to me at least, fall's well short of a flag ship hauling behemoth, I had no expectations of a 2100t FEII PCI, (which it never was), as it used the same type of outfitting found in part, with the current ED FC's.

I am guessing that the new Turdis rack's are part of an up and coming fleet wide overhaul, and It's quicker (Cheaper) to add a new module than overhaul every ships GUI.

As it stand's I will not be parting with money for early access for my main CMDR, The Alt's will get to be used as loader's until I can scrape up enough in game ARX's.

It was so close as well, +1 on another Turdis C8, and resistance would have been futile.

Still looking forward to the Partner's first in game impressions.

Right now more that happy with my 792t Cutter, getting old and hard to please these day's. :coffee:

07
 
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I didn't pre-purchase Corsair, couldn't find use that ship in my fleet, yet the big cat is worth the money, yet the cargo hold could be bigger by a few hundred units but whatever I'll take it right away.
 
Personally, I think the ship looks great and I dig what I see as a Battlestar Galactica aesthetic. I'm still unsure about the tonnage, at the current capacity I believe it will reduce 3 Full cutter trips to 2 Panther Clipper trips, which is a 30% reduction in the amount of trips needed for a large hauling effort, which is not insignificant, but it would be sweeter if it reduced 5 trips to three rather than 6 trips to four.

The tankiness/firepower factor seems to be a bit under as well, but I would need to check on the numbers for that to be certain, but I hope it's not going to be a paper tiger. The base hull should be pretty sturdy by default. Also no mention of SCO that I recall, but I'm assuming that it will have it. I'm not too concerned about the handling, at the size it is I don't think it should be that nimble but a decent boost speed would be nice along with stronger retro thrusters than the Cutter.

Overall, it's going to be a addition to my fleet for sure, but does it live up to the hype of the original? I'm not as sure.
 
THis isn't about speed, this is about style.. I will do exploration/exobiology ship. I can collect 8 bios in one move, including entire planet hahahaha
 
Mountain fungoida has entered the chat

That's interesting case. I used to fly Beluga some time ago. I had SLF to find spot with fungoida and place for landing, and... it worked pretty well, because Beluga has very big space under the belly, so it needs just three spots for legs - and each spot is size of Sidewinder.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Estimate of jump range (first and third columns as check calc against the first image in Phil's Highlights thread):
1751055072851.png
 
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I didn't pre-purchase Corsair, couldn't find use that ship in my fleet, yet the big cat is worth the money, yet the cargo hold could be bigger by a few hundred units but whatever I'll take it right away.

Same here... except that I only realised after I spent the Arx.

Wasn't playing ED when the P2 and T8 were released so I bought them for credits, Arx-bought the Mandalay and CM5 and, honestly, all of those ships have become regulars in my fleet.
The P2 has become my primary combat ship - better (for me) than the FdL that I used to have.
The T8 has, obviously, become my default cargo ship.
The Mandalay has become my daily-driver.
I've built a CM5 as a mat-scavving ship, a multirole and a miniature combat ship.

Bought the Corsair and, erm, I just can't find anything to do with it.
I mean, I could use it to do the stuff I use my Python, Krait and iClipper for but it's not sufficiently better to make it worth the effort of engineering the Corsair.

Honestly, I probably will buy the PC simply 'cos it can haul a bit more than the T9 and, besides, who doesn't like new toys?
I dunno.
Maybe it'll work as a replacement for my T10 as a laser-mining ship?
 
My realistic expectations was 1200-1500 T, so it still fits it. I didn't buy the previous ship because I had no sensible use for them, but for Panther Clipper? Hello. almost 60% more than T-9/Cutter (with my builds) are really good. And a lot of fun with so big ship.
 
....but for Panther Clipper? Hello. almost 60% more than T-9/Cutter (with my builds) are really good.

See, that's the thing.

A lot of people seem to be obsessing about overall slot-capacity in both "directions".
The PC is brilliant because it's got the slot-capacity for 1,400t of cargo.
The PC sucks because a Cutter has enough slot-capacity for 800t of cargo.
Etc.

Thing is, overall slot-capacity isn't really what matters to me.
A T9 might have the slot-capacity for 800t of cargo but, realisically, once you bung a C7 shield on it (cos you don't want to "waste" a C8 slot with a shield) and realise it provides mediocre protection, you're probably going to end-up bunging GSBs and SCBs in some of the smaller slots to make it more robust, thus decreasing the cargo capacity even more.

Realistic, survivable, PC builds are going to be far more nuanced and will probably rely on whatever hidden stat's related to shield efficiency and hull hardness that FDev decide to give the ship.
Basically, if I bung a C7 shield on a PC and find that it's only got something like 350mj of shield, that's going to make a big difference to my plans to use it as a cargo ship.
 
Basically, if I bung a C7 shield on a PC and find that it's only got something like 350mj of shield, that's going to make a big difference to my plans to use it as a cargo ship.
The Cutter, which has 100t less hull mass realises 702 MJ with a 7A shield.
The PCII is shown with a 7A shield and has 385 MJ.
Yes, the Cutter has a hidden multiplier, but 385 seems very low to me, we'll have to wait for release time to play, but I suspect that building it to survive in open may end up with around the same as a survivable Cutter, maybe less because no multiplier!

But then, the T9 which is considerably lighter hull, only realises 330 MJ with a 7A, so some kind of multiplier is being applied on the PCII
And the T10 with the same mass has 352 MJ, so close enough to the PCII.
 
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