Elite Dangerous | System Colonisation Beta Details & Feedback

Maybe I'll just keep building extraction and refinery installations. I think it's said somewhere that those two may clash with each other, but in my mind those two things should be part of the same production line: Extract -> refine -> goodies.

If it doesn't end up working like that, oh well. At least I tried.
 
It's a lot more complicated than that. Think of it a bit like outfitting a ship: more SCBs equals more shields, but doesn't necessarily equal more combat performance because you might overstretch your power plant, or not have enough heatsinks to safely use them all, etc. It's not a simple more=better. And similarly, the Type-8 isn't a better warship than the Vulture just because it's bigger - you'll get better results working with the system's inherent advantages and disadvantages rather than against them.

"More facilities" will always either not affect general market sizes, or will increase general market sizes in the system - either by adding a new market, or by improving development level to boost the size of a market, or by adding strong or weak links which increase the sizes of specific markets. So if your goal is more cargo in total - especially if what you want is Hydrogen Fuel - there's nothing you can add which will decrease that in a general sense.

The problem is - just as by analogy a dedicated combat boat will flatten a multirole, but the multirole also doesn't carry as much cargo as a dedicated freighter - that if you start mixing economy types on an individual station, you can end up making it worse at its primary economy type. If you have a working Industrial economy turning out (say) Computer Components, that's great. If you start adding high-tech links to it, then the High-Tech economy consumes Computer Components, so even though you're improving the size of the economy overall, you might lose specifically Computer Components exports.

That leads on to the bigger problem with Colonisation in general:
- hybrid economies where a station has multiple economy types are somewhat unpredictable in outcome and can often lose output of certain key goods (even though they're better at some things) as well as having possibly unwanted effects on mission generation
- "weak links" are very easy to generate, very difficult to avoid the effects of, and will turn your economies into hybrid economies
- a lot of planet types (the more "interesting" the worse!) generate hybrid economies and rarely well-paired hybrid economies to begin with
(These are the equivalents of System Focused Power Distributors and Shielded Fuel Scoops in ship builds - sure, they make some numbers go up, but they're not the numbers you want to go up and the numbers they make go down are more important)

This is mitigated somewhat by the default populations and productivities on colonisation ports (especially T2s and bigger, and the surface T1 ports) being really large since Update 3, so you don't actually need very many constructions to already have more cargo than you can personally use (and indeed more cargo than a medium-sized squadron can use), and with careful choice of constructions (and the right base planets to build on) you can get a good spread of economies and services with relatively low amounts of construction and no interference.


Unlike ship outfitting, however, you can't "try it and if it doesn't work, try something else" without starting over in a new system. And while the community has documented various "recipes" to achieve various effects, there's nothing like the decades of accumulated experience, documentation, Coriolis/EDSY-equivalents, etc. that means "oh, obviously you don't use System Engineered on your Distributor" is common knowledge. (This may change somewhat when/if Colonisation leaves 'Beta' - a lot of people may be holding off on doing documentation work until they're sure it won't need throwing out to start over).

So it's important to understand:
a) what you're trying to achieve
b) how to achieve that
before you start building a system, if the outcome of building that system is important to you.

(Also, given that Frontier have shown willingness to make major backward-incompatible changes to how system assets function during Beta, if the outcome is important to you then you shouldn't be constructing anything right now)
i put a suggestion in awhile ago that we should just be allowed to reject economic types we dont want at a port.

they also said they where going to look into solutions for this (months ago)

chance are, this wont happen and the feature will stay as it is now with the mostly negative stuff, i do not believe they are really working on trailblazers anymore since its effectively over and finished especially with vanguards literally just around the corner.
 
If it doesn't end up working like that, oh well. At least I tried.
It'll work for a given value of work. Refinery won't be impacted much. Extraction will be heavilly impacted by refinery and for that loss you gain nothing. In the framework of colonisation it's fine as what you need is still available. From a this combination is logical and cool you could just not build the extraction and it'd be the same. I don't like that.
 
Maybe I'll just keep building extraction and refinery installations. I think it's said somewhere that those two may clash with each other, but in my mind those two things should be part of the same production line: Extract -> refine -> goodies.

If it doesn't end up working like that, oh well. At least I tried.
extraction does not boost refinery, but refinery will eat extraction.

you get no bonuses from a mixed extraction/refinery except that you can build refineries on HMC's without worry of losing stuff from your refinery.
 
extraction does not boost refinery, but refinery will eat extraction.
That doesn't make logical sense. Where are the refineries getting their raw materials, if not from the mining installations? One would think that the more mining, the more supply to the refineries and thus the higher the output.

Does one refinery only "eat" a certain amount of stuff produced by an extraction installation? If I build 4 extraction installations and 1 refinery, will both produce stuff to the market?
 
Agriculture can safely be combined with refinery in a system. Industry influence, even weak, is likely to eat major amounts of the lower-amount refinery goods such as insulating membranes, for example, so if industry output is sought-after, see if there's any ice planets/moons that have surface and orbital slots as the innate planetary influence that you can make use of via Colony economies at the surface and/or orbiting the ice world does not affect the rest of the solar system.
 
Does one refinery only "eat" a certain amount of stuff produced by an extraction installation?
Demand is proportional to economy size and population so you could say yes. If that internal demand is satisfied and leftovers remain, they will be exported. So say your extraction produces 100 of some mineral and refinery consumes 80 of it [example values] you’ll have 20 leftover as an export from the station.

I personally wouldn’t mix extraction and refinery regardless, however - because you may lose the low-quantity and some medium quantity exports even if it’s four EXT hubs or (T2) settlements vs one REF hub. Less favorable if one or two of the extraction components is the orbital T1 installation. I can say from experience when the arbitrary industrial influence from volcanism destroyed most of a Coriolis’ refinery supply except for steel, titanium and semi/superconductors (which I was probably lucky to retain for the latter two), all just from planetary influence of 1.4 industrial alone. And a probably inconsequential .05 weak link from a settlement on a moon nearby.

… eg I am building a refinery/extraction system but am keeping both at separate moon systems of gas giants to reduce the economy mixing to a minimum. If I mixed them the extraction economy probably just wouldn’t exist despite technically being a part of a station.
 
but in my mind those two things should be part of the same production line: Extract -> refine -> goodies.
This is a really common "it works like this in other games so it should work like this in Elite Dangerous" misconception. ED's economy is both more abstract and more circular than that. In other games the "endpoint" of the economy is things like ships or other non-market goods, which ultimately take out of the economy the inputs added to it by mining/farming/etc, whereas ED's economy doesn't have an endpoint in that sense.

All of the big five production economies in Elite Dangerous (Extraction, Refinery, Industrial, High-Tech and Agriculture) produce at least some cargo that the other four consume. Most of the pairs have strong links in both directions (there is very little that Extraction and Refinery produce which Agricultural consumes, and very little that Refinery produces that Extraction consumes, but there's still at least one commodity going in those directions)

Extraction -> ores -> Refinery -> metals -> Industrial
is certainly a valid trade chain ... but so equally is
Industrial -> machinery -> Agricultural -> food -> Extraction
or
High-Tech -> technology -> Refinery -> biowaste -> Agricultural

Elite Dangerous economies as represented in-game are shown at "equilibrium" - NPC traffic is assumed to be bringing in some of their demanded cargo and taking away some of their surplus exports, to keep an overall equilibrium point (the exact position of this equilibrium point is then affected by BGS states, but that's not important here). Players can then temporarily move the economies away from equilibrium through their own trades.

So yes, a Refinery needs ores (and machinery, and food, and ...) to operate - and it's assumed that NPCs will be bringing in a baseline of those. The sources of those don't need to be in the same system - indeed, other than with colonisation, systems with heavily mixed economies are rare - the assumption is that the NPCs use their FSDs. If the player wants to improve production by bringing in needed commodities, this will if done enough trigger a Boom state, which tends to push the equilibrium export levels about 80% higher for a lot of commodities. It's not the "1t A + 1t B => 1t C" you might see in a game that's more about the spreadsheets and economy simulation and so on, but it works as a high-level abstraction.

If you mix an Extraction and Refinery economy on the same station, then a lot of the Extraction exports (and Explosives in the other direction) get plugged directly into the Refinery imports, so the market volumes of those on both import and export sides will fall. That's "good" from the point of view of the settlers in the station themselves - fewer external dependencies, less reliance on some very unreliable traders or exposure to pirate threats. From the point of view of us players, who get paid to create problems and then get paid again to fix them, a self-sufficient closed-loop economy is a terrible idea - it won't buy anything from you and it'll barely sell much either.

(This is how it's worked for the last decade, but this is also how no-one has needed to care is how it's worked for the last decade. Colonisation has had about the same impact as if they dropped the entire engineering/outfitting system in at once to players who'd spent the last decade only able to use a limited range of fixed builds.)

Does one refinery only "eat" a certain amount of stuff produced by an extraction installation? If I build 4 extraction installations and 1 refinery, will both produce stuff to the market?
This is not a simple question to answer.

To avoid a boring "every refinery produces twice as much Gallium as it produces Copper" situation, all trade commodities have a range of possible production and consumption levels. The ranges are not the same for different commodities, and the production ranges and consumption ranges don't necessarily line up (which can make sense, though they haven't been picked that precisely)

So if you add 4 Extraction exports and 1 Refinery, some commodities will definitely be exported, some will definitely be imported, and some will be in that grey area in the middle where it depends where your specific station falls in that range. Which you can't control. (It may depend in part on things like Wealth, Standard of Living, etc. but not in a way that you can do anything with)

If you want both Extraction and Refinery exports, the simple way to do it is to build one Refinery station and one separate Extraction station in such a way that they don't generate weak or strong links to each other. (Depending on where you're building them, this may be possible with them in the same system, or it may require you to put them in separate systems)

You can play around with some possible ranges of outcomes at https://cdb.sotl.org.uk/specialisation/hybrid (I put this together for my own purposes, so you may well find it's a third-party tool you need a fourth-party tool to get actual use out of)
 
This is why I do not like the current balance it functions but as a gameplay loop I hope that the devs adjust things. If I build more and go to the effort of balancing one system with all the extra resources and time taken. It should have some benefit and right now it really feels like it doesn't. I get to haul more goods for smaller markets and still have to build those additional systems if I want anything that went missing.

Less is more at the moment.
 
@Paul_Crowther
dear Sir,
your Beta logics are getting stranger and stranger!
Status Yesterday I had a Coriolis around a rocky body (with one bio-signal) showing links as following (despite the fact that on the body a port - Refinery market -already existed)
HWY.png


So yesterday / today I added a refinery Hub on that same body, now that port shows
HWY2.png

which is all fine - but the Coriolis????

HWY3.png

refers to that same port which in planetary map clearly shows "Refinery" as being an Agri- Link???
Don´t tell me thats "working as intended"!

edit: thats the docking event breakup
HWY4.png

which also makes no sense, as Terraforming and Agri should be 1.0 only (coming from Bio on body)
 
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@Paul_Crowther
dear Sir,
your Beta logics are getting stranger and stranger!
Status Yesterday I had a Coriolis around a rocky body (with one bio-signal) showing links as following (despite the fact that on the body a port - Refinery market -already existed)


So yesterday / today I added a refinery Hub on that same body, now that port shows

which is all fine - but the Coriolis????


refers to that same port which in planetary map clearly shows "Refinery" as being an Agri- Link???
Don´t tell me thats "working as intended"!
This is something I noticed quite a while ago (well before update 3.3) - if a station has no strong links, it will show the planetary economy influences as strong links in the UI. But as soon as a facility is placed nearby (creating a strong link) they will either disappear or be partially "merged". It's all just cosmetic UI stuff though, the actual numbers and commodity supply/demand amounts are not affected / work as expected.

The UI showing the links needs to be reworked, it's not useful since it doesn't show correct proportions, doesn't show boosts/decreases, and in most cases doesn't show planetary economy influences at all. It would be better to have no information shown at all rather than incorrect information, it just makes things harder to understand for anyone who hasn't studied the workings in-depth.
 
.... and commodity supply/demand amounts are not affected / work as expected.
....
unfortunately No Sir, that damn terraforming/agri eats up all my Insulating membranes,
All other commodities well in the 5-6 figures, InsMembranes 90 to with 10 to restocking each hour !

edit: and strange enough - thats exactly the same with the refinery(civilian) outpost orbiting another rocky body which has zero bios and shows refinery weak-link only (guess from the refinery-hub)

Btw the system already has 970K pop,,,,
 
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unfortunately No Sir, that damn terraforming/agri eats up all my Insulating membranes,
All other commodities well in the 5-6 figures, InsMembranes 90 to with 10 to restocking each hour !
Which part of that is not working as expected? That's precisely what the terraforming economy is expected to do since you've got 1.4 of it due to:
  • 1.0 from the planet itself
  • 0.4 from the surface outpost (which is not just an "agriculture" link as the UI shows; it provides a mix of ag/terraforming/refinery).

If you want more refinery products, build more refineries...
 
which is all fine - but the Coriolis????
It's just hiding the information. Body influence isn't a link so you don't see it on the surface port but it has the agriculture and terraforming. The coriolis also has these from the body + now you're finally seeing the values in the UI because the surface port is reinforcing them with links to orbit but they were always there.
 
It's just hiding the information. Body influence isn't a link so you don't see it on the surface port but it has the agriculture and terraforming. The coriolis also has these from the body + now you're finally seeing the values in the UI because the surface port is reinforcing them with links to orbit but they were always there.
give you that for the Coriolis, but the Outpost????
 
give you that for the Coriolis, but the Outpost????
The outpost has it as well you're just not seeing it because the body influence isn't a link. You need to upload it to an external tool or check your journal file for the docking event at the surface port. The game does not show you the body influences anywhere beyond that when you were in the market you should have noticed some extra agriculture goods.

The coriolis would still have it without the surface port it'd just show like the surface port and you'd be wondering why you don't have the membranes. The UI needs to show all the relevant information and it doesn't.
 
Greetings Commanders,

With the launch of our Trailblazers update we will be bringing System Colonisation to Elite Dangerous! The launch of System Colonisation will be as a live Beta for the feature, allowing us to review data and make adjustments over time. This is a significant update to Elite Dangerous and whilst we are very happy with the feature we do understand that some fine tuning may be required initially.

Though this is a Beta it will be on the live version of the game and any actions/progress made will NOT be wiped unless a significant issue is identified. Here is a brief explanation of how the Beta works:

✅ What the System Colonisation Beta is
  • Feature complete
  • All actions/resource payments made are final and will not be refunded
  • A period where we can monitor data and make balancing adjustments

❌ What the System Colonisation Beta is not
  • A work in progress
  • There will be no progress wipes
  • There will be no resource refunds

The aim of the Beta is to gather data and feedback specifically focused on resource balancing. We are happy with the System Colonisation feature itself and whilst we are always happy for you to share your feedback the aim of this Beta is aimed firmly at resource balancing and not changes to the feature itself.

To help us in our balancing we will be using this thread for you to share your feedback on the following areas:
  • Amount of resources required
  • Amount of time/distance taken to complete tasks
As always you are welcome to share additional feedback on the forums or to raise an issues you encounter on our Issue Tracker.
Not sure if this has already been commented, but an ability to cancel and remove a none completed build would be appreciated, to remove any "mistakes" planned earlier in the beta that have been rendered pointless in subsequent updates.
 
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