Why has it gotten this bad?

[Tar Stone]

It's the same old story, some people communicate and write forum posts in a nasty and provocative way, and then act surprised when people get all provoked and tell them where to go.

Then they rationalise the responses they get by labelling respondents as "fanboiz" or "yes men".

Then it turns into a downward spiral of arguing until the thread gets closed, prompting cries of "Censorship!"

If you write a considered and thoughtful post, and really mean what you say, you will almost certainly get a thoughtful and meaningful response. That's the way it has always been, even before the internet.

If you don't, then you are fair game.


Also, the ignore function cleans the forum up nicely.

 

[kilvenny]

I think we have several issues.
1) A disenfranchised group of players/ex players regarding offline and how its been handled
2) A large influx of new players who never played the original Elite
3) A work in progress product that is being released December 16th and is perceived as a feature complete product at that point.
4) The internet.

Elite Dangerous December 16th release is primarily original Elite 1984 in a more modern look in an online galaxy. It's a base point for the ongoing development. Instead I think the expectation levels are far beyond that and whilst that is what it may become (I hope it does) that isn't where it is now. The issues arise from a mismatch of expectations.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

We all came here first for one thing. To see Elite: Dangerous and the space simulator game succeed.

Sorry, but this is anonymous public Internet forum. To assume that everyone here want ED truly succeed is nice thought, but very naive.

There are quite a lot of trolls because a) they can b) "my game is ways better than ED" c) if they succeed x will happen and no one will play EVE anymore d) etc. any other reason.

And that without people who feel cause of always online rub them wrong way (corporate control and everything else really), who see Kickstarter/Early Access something bad, who backed "that other game" and feel for some strange reason ED endanger them, and let's end up with people who just love to find guilty party and don't care about small details.

Unfortunately this was bound to happen. Combine this with quite liberal forum moderation policy (and no, mods, I am not disputing policy here ) and you get what's here.

 

[amigacooke]

...it's the internet. Sadly, it will always be like this.

To be more precise, it's some of the people using the Internet.

 

[MikeB]

It's the same old story, some people communicate and write forum posts in a nasty and provocative way, and then act surprised when people get all provoked and tell them where to go.

Then they rationalise the responses they get by labelling respondents as "fanboiz" or "yes men".

Then it turns into a downward spiral of arguing until the thread gets closed, prompting cries of "Censorship!"

If you write a considered and thoughtful post, and really mean what you say, you will almost certainly get a thoughtful and meaningful response. That's the way it has always been, even before the internet.

If you don't, then you are fair game.


Also, the ignore function cleans the forum up nicely.

Yeah, but given that the communication from Frontier has been so bad, I feel some anger is justified. Though I absolutely love this game, it's very clear that we're likely to be sold short on what was promised to us, personally I wouldn't really be that bothered about that, provided one of the dev team announced it in a way that actually communicated effectively, i.e. an email or a sticky announcement. The problem is that at the moment we have to go searching around the forums until we can find something that actually explains what's going on, and often there are also contradictory messages which makes it doubly confusing. I'm prepared to cut Frontier some slack, they are after all producing what looks and feels like an AAA game ridiculously fast and on a shoestring budget, but they really could do better at talking to us.

I think you'd find if they made that effort, i.e. had a thread up saying something-along-the-lines of "Yes, we are aware of this bug, we're sorry if it is hampering your enjoyment of the game, we're working hard to get it fixed and will update ASAP", then a lot of the anger would go away--mine certainly would. Part of the problem is that we've been more-or-less left in the dark regarding whether certain features (i.e. ridiculously difficult start, multiplayer, GalNet etc.) will or will not be properly implemented on launch. This is a clear and unambiguous failing of FD's behalf, they could and should do much, much, much better at communicating with us. Hopefully it follows then why people get angry, and why the 'fanboy' "Frontier have done nothing wrong, it's all you fault" responses are really obviously just plain wrong and dreadfully unhelpful.

 

[amigacooke]

Also, the ignore function cleans the forum up nicely.

Indeed, if you ignore everyone but yourself, you'll get exactly the opinions you like.

 

[LukeP]

Yeah, but given that the communication from Frontier has been so bad, I feel some anger is justified. Though I absolutely love this game, it's very clear that we're likely to be sold short on what was promised to us, personally I wouldn't really be that bothered about that, provided one of the dev team announced it in a way that actually communicated effectively, i.e. an email or a sticky announcement. The problem is that at the moment we have to go searching around the forums until we can find something that actually explains what's going on, and often there are also contradictory messages which makes it doubly confusing. I'm prepared to cut Frontier some slack, they are after all producing what looks and feels like an AAA game ridiculously fast and on a shoestring budget, but they really could do better at talking to us.

I think you'd find if they made that effort, i.e. had a thread up saying something-along-the-lines of "Yes, we are aware of this bug, we're sorry if it is hampering your enjoyment of the game, we're working hard to get it fixed and will update ASAP", then a lot of the anger would go away--mine certainly would. Part of the problem is that we've been more-or-less left in the dark regarding whether certain features (i.e. ridiculously difficult start, multiplayer, GalNet etc.) will or will not be properly implemented on launch. This is a clear and unambiguous failing of FD's behalf, they could and should do much, much, much better at communicating with us. Hopefully it follows then why people get angry, and why the 'fanboy' "Frontier have done nothing wrong, it's all you fault" responses are really obviously just plain wrong and dreadfully unhelpful.

+1 to that. Well said

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yeah, but given that the communication from Frontier has been so bad, I feel some anger is justified. Though I absolutely love this game, it's very clear that we're likely to be sold short on what was promised to us, personally I wouldn't really be that bothered about that, provided one of the dev team announced it in a way that actually communicated effectively, i.e. an email or a sticky announcement. The problem is that at the moment we have to go searching around the forums until we can find something that actually explains what's going on, and often there are also contradictory messages which makes it doubly confusing. I'm prepared to cut Frontier some slack, they are after all producing what looks and feels like an AAA game ridiculously fast and on a shoestring budget, but they really could do better. I think you'd find if they made that effort, i.e. had a thread up saying something-along-the-lines of "Yes, we are aware of this bug, we're sorry if it is hampering your enjoyment of the game, we're working hard to get it fixed and will update ASAP", then a lot of the anger would go away. Part of the problem is that we've been more-or-less left in the dark regarding whether certain features (i.e. ridiculously difficult start, multiplayer, GalNet etc.) will or will not be properly implemented on launch. This is a clear and unambiguous failing of FD's behalf, they could and should do much, much, much better at communicating with us. Hopefully it follows then why people get angry, and why the 'fanboy' "Frontier have done nothing wrong, it's all you fault" responses are really obviously just plain wrong and dreadfully unhelpful.

Anger is really not *that* justified (especially emotional venting), and FD should communicate more. If world would be all emotions, you might be right. However most of the world is built upon facts. Facts that actual promises are completely something that DDF displays, which has been a display of *intent*. In fact, FD wanted DDF to be closed as much as possible at the beginning, for these very same reasons - people jumping to conclusions on design decisions. However, said this, they later opened up more themselves to get feedback from wider community.

Some people just have hard time just let it go and recognize it's FD baby and they want best for it. Yes, they want wings. Yes, they want meaningful co-op. Don't jump to conclusions just because it's not there. Just report tickets, post suggestions and possible solutions, and don't overthink it. Yes, it's a game, yes, it's a complex game and it will take a bit more time to realize vision fully. I also quite nervous about all these things, but that's not really in my control...

 

[kwik]

to the op: I think it's because there are a lot of new people who do not understand all the mechanics of the game, so when something doesn't work as expected they come and complain.

That said, I think if the dev's communicated a bit more detail about what aspects they are working on (not just "everything" or "were adding content") then it might help.

 

[MikeB]

Anger is really not *that* justified (especially emotional venting), and FD should communicate more. If world would be all emotions, you might be right. However most of the world is built upon facts. Facts that actual promises are completely something that DDF displays, which has been a display of *intent*. In fact, FD wanted DDF to be closed as much as possible at the beginning, for these very same reasons - people jumping to conclusions on design decisions. However, said this, they later opened up more themselves to get feedback from wider community.

Some people just have hard time just let it go and recognize it's FD baby and they want best for it. Yes, they want wings. Yes, they want meaningful co-op. Don't jump to conclusions just because it's not there. Just report tickets, post suggestions and possible solutions, and don't overthink it. Yes, it's a game, yes, it's a complex game and it will take a bit more time to realize vision fully. I also quite nervous about all these things, but that's not really in my control...

It isn't entirely their baby, it's something we backed and were told we would be part of, while I can understand being kept in the dark over big secrets (new ships, Thargoid encounters and so on,) that should not extend to basic features. Would be nice if they said something-along-the-lines of "this is something we're currently working on, we will update ASAP on this", not least because these are the features we were sold the game on. It's quite natural people get angry when they don't know whether or not they will get what they paid for.

This whole debate is really annoying, I don't want to be criticising Frontier, I love Elite Dangerous and have been a massive fan of the series since Frontier was released for the PC in the early 90's. I would much rather be on your side of the debate, but the problem is Frontier have really been woefully bad at communicating with the fans, and the fanboys (not saying you're one) only really serve to make this problem worse.

 

[Zetta]

Spoiler

Anger is really not *that* justified (especially emotional venting), and FD should communicate more. If world would be all emotions, you might be right. However most of the world is built upon facts. Facts that actual promises are completely something that DDF displays, which has been a display of *intent*. In fact, FD wanted DDF to be closed as much as possible at the beginning, for these very same reasons - people jumping to conclusions on design decisions. However, said this, they later opened up more themselves to get feedback from wider community.

Some people just have hard time just let it go and recognize it's FD baby and they want best for it.

Yes, they want wings. Yes, they want meaningful co-op. Don't jump to conclusions just because it's not there. Just report tickets, post suggestions and possible solutions, and don't overthink it. Yes, it's a game, yes, it's a complex game and it will take a bit more time to realize vision fully. I also quite nervous about all these things, but that's not really in my control...

Well said. A little bit of trust, a little bit of patience (it's been 30 years!), a little bit of managing expectations goes a long way towards a healthy outlook.
And let's be realistic, a typical MMO is 4-6 years for development, Elite has been 2 years...

 

[MikeB]

Well said. A little bit of trust, a little bit of patience (it's been 30 years!), a little bit of managing expectations goes a long way towards a healthy outlook.
And let's be realistic, a typical MMO is 4-6 years for development, Elite has been 2 years...

Sorry, but it's really hard to trust them when they cut major design features this close to release, not that the single player thing effects me, but hopefully you see where I'm going...

 

[Tar Stone]

Yeah, but given that the communication from Frontier has been so bad, I feel some anger is justified. Though I absolutely love this game, it's very clear that we're likely to be sold short on what was promised to us, personally I wouldn't really be that bothered about that, provided one of the dev team announced it in a way that actually communicated effectively, i.e. an email or a sticky announcement. The problem is that at the moment we have to go searching around the forums until we can find something that actually explains what's going on, and often there are also contradictory messages which makes it doubly confusing. I'm prepared to cut Frontier some slack, they are after all producing what looks and feels like an AAA game ridiculously fast and on a shoestring budget, but they really could do better at talking to us.

I think you'd find if they made that effort, i.e. had a thread up saying something-along-the-lines of "Yes, we are aware of this bug, we're sorry if it is hampering your enjoyment of the game, we're working hard to get it fixed and will update ASAP", then a lot of the anger would go away--mine certainly would. Part of the problem is that we've been more-or-less left in the dark regarding whether certain features (i.e. ridiculously difficult start, multiplayer, GalNet etc.) will or will not be properly implemented on launch. This is a clear and unambiguous failing of FD's behalf, they could and should do much, much, much better at communicating with us. Hopefully it follows then why people get angry, and why the 'fanboy' "Frontier have done nothing wrong, it's all you fault" responses are really obviously just plain wrong and dreadfully unhelpful.

It's not the anger that prompts me to click 'ignore', it's the ridiculously arrogant and provocative way that a few forum posters choose to express it.

Getting angry over not having an apology for bugs and not knowing if and when feature 'x' is coming are completely alien notions to me. It just isn't something that makes me angry.

If you genuinely feel that nasty little posts sniping into the community on the forum are justified by a perceived lack of communication from Frontier, then I really just have to stand back and leave you to it.

 

[Philip Coutts]

You know the main reason things have become more than a little heated around here? Poor communication. Some of the official announcements by Frontier just haven't been handled very well at all I'm sad to say and that is overshadowing the fact that there is a great game in the making.

 

[MikeB]

It's not the anger that prompts me to click 'ignore', it's the ridiculously arrogant and provocative way that a few forum posters choose to express it.

Getting angry over not having an apology for bugs and not knowing if and when feature 'x' is coming are completely alien notions to me. It just isn't something that makes me angry.

If you genuinely feel that nasty little posts sniping into the community on the forum are justified by a perceived lack of communication from Frontier, then I really just have to stand back and leave you to it.

The thing is that given the lack of communication it's hard to know whether something is a bug or a design feature, it's also impossible to tell whether or not certain design features that the game was sold on will actually make it into the game or not, this is bad communication. Bad communication with customers will always generate anger regardless of whether it's ethically justified or not. If you're stoic enough not to be bothered with the lack of communication, then I admire you greatly, but the fact that PR as an industry exists at all strongly suggests that you are in the minority. Again, I really want to make it clear that I really love Elite Dangerous, despite the flaws and lack of communication, and absolutely want it to be a massive success. I'm just getting a little frustrated with people constantly making excuses for what really is a clear and unambiguous failing on Frontier's behalf--the woeful lack of communication.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

You know the main reason things have become more than a little heated around here? Poor communication. Some of the official announcements by Frontier just haven't been handled very well at all I'm sad to say and that is overshadowing the fact that there is a great game in the making.

THIS!!!!!

 

[Tuzmaal]

@ OP: this is a gameing forum, its filled with nerds, trolls and no-lifers flaming and rageing all day long and telling everyone how they would have done much better if in charge while their only accomplishment in real life so far was not messing up the last order they got as a McDonalds DriveInn Waiter. Get used to it, the internet is full with them.

 

[FanZeroEx]

Sorry, but it's really hard to trust them when they cut major design features this close to release, not that the single player thing effects me, but hopefully you see where I'm going...

I agree. As a customer I'm very wary right now. They cut the major the feature just like that and the release candidate lacks features. So I wonder what else did they cut? It makes very uncomfortable, it makes me question things and wonder. I think most of the frustration for all the negativity in forum comes just from that... We just don't know, we're in the dark.

 

[MikeB]

I agree. As a customer I'm very wary right now. They cut the major the feature just like that and the release candidate lacks features. So I wonder what else did they cut? It makes very uncomfortable, it makes me question things and wonder. I think most of the frustration for all the negativity in forum comes just from that... We just don't know, we're in the dark.

Right and they could clear a lot of this up by having someone sit down and spend half an hour or so clarifying things.

 

[kenwshmt]

OP... valid..

try not to confuse 'the fan belt is squealing' with 'it needs to be taken to atoms and remade'
Being an apparently noise one, I say i like it.. even as it is its much more game than many finished games ever are.

Its also a factor of isolation, as the big problems diminish, the smaller ones become more apparent.

It is just the way of things.

I am sufficiently entertained.. bad or good.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It isn't entirely their baby, it's something we backed and were told we would be part of

I think lot of confusion rises from that people understand this part differently - I never expected to be hinted about everything. But I agree FD should be less guarded with things in development. I think big part of fans can grasp idea of schedule of implementation, of delaying things, etc. I just guess FD doesn't feel very safe to do this yet. There's no ill will from them imho....they just don't grasp that 'managing expectations' thing yet.

And before everyone jumps in - sure, they are commercial company first. But they are also commercial company who have thrown pretty much everything they have at this project.

while I can understand being kept in the dark over big secrets (new ships, Thargoid encounters and so on,) that should not extend to basic features. Would be nice if they said something-along-the-lines of "this is something we're currently working on, we will update ASAP on this", not least because these are the features we were sold the game on. It's quite natural people get angry when they don't know whether or not they will get what they paid for.

Which features we were sold game on? DDF come with disclaimer, and Kickstarter proposal is generic by nature, and it that they talked about playing co-op private group.

I used this just to point that people have assumed a lot about first release, myself included. I felt a little saddened when FD said that they can't really add anything before release, because I know they have been working on things.

I think biggest issue is that quite a few people simply don't trust FD as company enough to believe they will deliver on rest of ideas and stuff left out of first release. This also displays disappointment with background sim, which isn't even fully turned on yet.