Is Exploration too easy? Galactic center reached already before launch
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Philip Coutts
Volunteer Moderator
There will always be someone with more time than you that goes further or earns more. It's the beauty of Elite, you can play at your own pace, this isn't exploring as such, it's racing.
Oppenheimer
Banned
It would be better if the DDF mechanics were implemented.Disclaimer: I did not read the linked thread (want to avoid spoilers). However in general I agree with the statement that "Getting From A To B ≠ Exploring". It is my understanding that someone set off from populated systems and reached the center of the galaxy. Well, they've only reached a system. Galaxy center is not 1 system, it's thousands of systems.
To actually explore the center of the galaxy would take years with the current mechanic. So no, I do not agree that exploring is too easy. Getting from point A to B may be easy if you have a ship with fuel scoop and all you do is system hopping, but that's not what the game is all about
Are there any plans to do that?
If not then what was the point of the DDF?
The trouble with forums is that they are a terrible format for nuance.
I don't want exploration to be exclusively cooperative, I just want very long range exploration to take more than just grinding up credits, following a build guide and heading off, and a teamwork requirement achieves that. At the same time, I want solo exploration to be possible and have a real impact on the gameworld.
This is what I said about it earlier-
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
DDF was never meant to be release day feature list. From what I understood by reading various developers' posts, Frontier will keep working on the game after the release, gradually adding DDF features as applicable (and changing them if need be).
Note I don't have any insider knowledge, the above is based on what I read on the forums.
Disclaimer: I did not read the linked thread (want to avoid spoilers). However in general I agree with the statement that "Getting From A To B ≠ Exploring". It is my understanding that someone set off from populated systems and reached the center of the galaxy. Well, they've only reached a system. Galaxy center is not 1 system, it's thousands of systems.
To actually explore the center of the galaxy would take years with the current mechanic. So no, I do not agree that exploring is too easy. Getting from point A to B may be easy if you have a ship with fuel scoop and all you do is system hopping, but that's not what the game is all about
You are missing the point.
Tell me, do you think Earth is explored?
Well, it is not. Not by a long shot. There are still a lot of places no one has even looked at with satellites, never mind actually been to.
And we all know that, as far as we are concerned, everything is explored. Sure, you could try and seek out those undiscovered places, but would you be hailed as Cook, Amundsen or Armstrong were? Of course not - because it is just details, it's not the *horizon*.
Exploration is all about the horizon. About the truly undiscovered, untamed challenges. It doesn't matter if it is the challenge of getting to a place of significance, such as Mt. Everest, the North Pole or the Galactic Core, or overcoming challenges of intercontinental sailing, space flight or FTL travel. The challenge is there.
In ED, it is not every star in the galaxy that matters, just like on Earth few care about every single square kilometer to be discovered by someone. What matters is the challenge and the visible goals that represent them that we all can look up to.
The Core. The Circumnavigation. The Poles. The Nebulae. Those are the places and deeds which call to our imagination. Those are the places which we feel drawn to. Not ten billion stars in between. Humans do not think that way.
And for that to feel epic, to impart a sense of achievement and the need to persevere in spite of terrible odds, those places need to be hard to reach. Not just by taking a lot of time to get there. The challenge should be complex and require actual skills and forethought, cooperation even.
That will keep exploration alive for a long, long time. Anything else, and the exploration will be the first to die.
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You've hit a big nail on the head there!
Unless there is actually unique(ish) stuff to actually find/see in systems, for me exploration becomes little more than a tick box. Been there? Tick! Been there? Tick!
With visiting/exploring remote systems there needs to be the (rare) chance/risk of finding something unique and/or special. To me this must be pretty much hand crafted items, and/or, very special things built into the engine.
FD mentioned along time ago such stuff would exist I believe, but as yet I don't believe anyone has found such a thing. Maybe they will not be enabled until release.
But without them, systems - as pretty as they are - are pretty much just variations on a theme... and after you've seen 100, I doubt the 101st will hold must interest... Unless, there is the risk that 1 in every few hundred to so holds something truly interesting! Without that anticipation/risk, something is missing IMHO.
In continuation to my previous reply (above) - There surely needs to be a reward for exploration. If over every horizon there's simply another set of hills much like the ones we've just crossed, will it be rewarding?
Now if over the next set of hills we spy a cave to investigate? What's in it? Or a house in the distance? So we need clever unique content in systems to discover and visit. Without it, it will just be hills followed by hills IMHO.
In the context of ED, I'd hope there's be odd asteroids with areas drilled out, and maybe odd things inside its tunnels to see? Or wrecked space lifts? Or Planets/moons with truly odd features like ice guisers spewing into space... etc etc... Without such interesting material, I feel exploration will be little more than a numbers came than something actually inspiring/rewarding.
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well said.
To me part of the appeal of solo play in this sort of setting is being out there on your own, knowing that the odds are stacked against you but that you will back your wits against anything an prevail through sheer determination. Whether it's as a lone pirate being pursued by the law, a miner searching for that jackpot far from the nearest living soul, or as an explorer bravely venturing out in to the unknown.
It's actually at odds with that feeling if doing it solo is more efficient. You should absolutely be able to explore solo.. accepting the risk, accepting that you will have to be completely self-sufficient and that it will be a long hard road.. but to you goes all the glory when you prove that you were right to take an interest in the remote region of space while those big corporations were looking elsewhere. It should be I found this because I made the right choices, I persevered and I overcame all the challenges.. not I found this because it's far quicker and easier for one person to hop hop hop and there's literally no benefit to bringing a team.
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Pity I can't +1 you again because that was a great post.
It's actually at odds with that feeling if doing it solo is more efficient. You should absolutely be able to explore solo.. accepting the risk, accepting that you will have to be completely self-sufficient and that it will be a long hard road.. but to you goes all the glory when you prove that you were right to take an interest in the remote region of space while those big corporations were looking elsewhere. It should be I found this because I made the right choices, I persevered and I overcame all the challenges.. not I found this because it's far quicker and easier for one person to hop hop hop and there's literally no benefit to bringing a team.
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Pity I can't +1 you again because that was a great post.
OK, imagine the following new article appearing on Galnet. ('Scuse my creative writing skills.)
"And in other news, Faulcon DeLacey announced today that their next generation FSD will be shipped within the 1st quarter of this year. Early tests indicate that jump ranges will increase increase by 3ly while fuel consumption and maintenance costs will be be reduced by 1.8% and 0.3% respectively. Archibold DeLacey, CEO of DeLacey Enterprises, has recently stated that 'Faulcon DeLacey is committed to producing the type of cutting edge technologies necessary for making humanity's expansion throughout the galaxy possible'. This will come as welcome news following the recent revelation that the Federation's Deep Space Relay has detected 'highly ordered but as of yet unidentified signals' emanating from within the Scorpion Nebula."
Frontier get to control the rate of exploration/ expansion within the game while also having time to create some fascinating surprises. Imagine the race to the source of the signal! Maybe there is a big financial reward for the first person to get there. Or maybe the first human arrival could inadvertently determine the next chapter of the story - e.g. if aliens are waiting perhaps we now at war / best space buds because of this one CMR's actions. It would be a great way of merging in-game lore with real life decisions.
This is the type of thing that is possible if Frontier do it right. The problem is that I'm not so sure that they are doing it right WRT exploration.
"And in other news, Faulcon DeLacey announced today that their next generation FSD will be shipped within the 1st quarter of this year. Early tests indicate that jump ranges will increase increase by 3ly while fuel consumption and maintenance costs will be be reduced by 1.8% and 0.3% respectively. Archibold DeLacey, CEO of DeLacey Enterprises, has recently stated that 'Faulcon DeLacey is committed to producing the type of cutting edge technologies necessary for making humanity's expansion throughout the galaxy possible'. This will come as welcome news following the recent revelation that the Federation's Deep Space Relay has detected 'highly ordered but as of yet unidentified signals' emanating from within the Scorpion Nebula."
Frontier get to control the rate of exploration/ expansion within the game while also having time to create some fascinating surprises. Imagine the race to the source of the signal! Maybe there is a big financial reward for the first person to get there. Or maybe the first human arrival could inadvertently determine the next chapter of the story - e.g. if aliens are waiting perhaps we now at war / best space buds because of this one CMR's actions. It would be a great way of merging in-game lore with real life decisions.
This is the type of thing that is possible if Frontier do it right. The problem is that I'm not so sure that they are doing it right WRT exploration.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
I don't think Earth is explored. It's partially explored, but not fully explored.
I understand your point of view, but that's that - your personal definition of exploration. For many people (myself included) exploration is about something more that just that. And to many people all the stars in between WILL matter, so with all due respect, you cannot speak for all the humans and say "humans do not think this way", as some do
Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the romantic aspect of The Horizon, The Mystery Of The Unknown and all that kind of stuff. It makes me tick too and I love the idea that the horizon is out there, still to be reached. But simply reaching the horizon DOES NOT mean exploration to me. It means reaching places where no one has been before. And reaching places in Elite is easy indeed, I agree.
Exploration is not.
(As a side note: the fact that someone has already reached it, does not mean I cannot do it myself. I won't be the first, but I don't care - I still want to do it! The mystery is still there, my own horizon is still out there, waiting for me to reach it.)
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Yep, there absolutely needs to be inventive/unqiue content & events out there (like you've suggested). Without them people will quickly realise exploration is little more than variation on a common theme.
That may work for some areas of the game, but not exploration. You can't just add more complex exploration and travel mechanics after people have already ventured out on their own. They are now possibly stranded without the right equipment and will have to voluntarily wipe their save in order to play the game. Even if only more skill and time is required to make a journey, they are now looking at months of extra effort more to make it back than it took them to get there.
A plausible solution outside of reinstating the bubble is to add wear and tear mechanics, but even that is shallow. I would like hyperspace route discovery to be necessary outside of civilized space to make expanding the horizon a worthy accomplishment. Earth-bound explorers couldn't just jump their way across continents without significant dangers and they had to rely on crude maps until better ones could be plotted from their own observations. There should be more dangers than the annoying pirate at every other star, which in reality is a statistical impossibility the farther you stray away from civilized space. It doesn't mean a team is required to explore the galaxy, just that it can't be done in a handhandful of sittings after the release of the game.
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I don't think Earth is explored. It's partially explored, but not fully explored.
I understand your point of view, but that's that - your personal definition of exploration. For many people (myself included) exploration is about something more that just that. And to many people all the stars in between WILL matter, so with all due respect, you cannot speak for all the humans and say "humans do not think this way", as some do
Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the romantic aspect of The Horizon, The Mystery Of The Unknown and all that kind of stuff. It makes me tick too and I love the idea that the horizon is out there, still to be reached. But simply reaching the horizon DOES NOT mean exploration to me. It means reaching places where no one has been before. And reaching places in Elite is easy indeed, I agree.
Exploration is not.
I guess the point is that exploration is many things. It might be exploring the extreme valleys of Antarctica or the glens of Scotland or just a walk around the local woods, but each of these kinds of explorations require different levels of planning and vastly different equipment. And the stakes are radically different between them too.
ED's weakness when it comes to exploring is that if you've got a pair of wellies and enough spare time, you're all set to be the next Amundsen or Edmund Hillary.
I don't think Earth is explored. It's partially explored, but not fully explored.
I understand your point of view, but that's that - your personal definition of exploration. For many people (myself included) exploration is about something more that just that. And to many people all the stars in between WILL matter, so with all due respect, you cannot speak for all the humans and say "humans do not think this way", as some do
Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the romantic aspect of The Horizon, The Mystery Of The Unknown and all that kind of stuff. It makes me tick too and I love the idea that the horizon is out there, still to be reached. But simply reaching the horizon DOES NOT mean exploration to me. It means reaching places where no one has been before. And reaching places in Elite is easy indeed, I agree.
Exploration is not.
(As a side note: the fact that someone has already reached it, does not mean I cannot do it myself. I won't be the first, but I don't care - I still want to do it! The mystery is still there, my own horizon is still out there, waiting for me to reach it.)
yea, most of us agree exploration is more than going to some places, but it's a part of it, and as you say it is easy and i add it is too fast and neither interstellar nor stellar exploration incorporate inspiring mechanics.
when i just think about the advanced scanner, i mean what kind of lazy mechanic is that. it seems like the easiest thing you could implement.
i may add i still like to explore and i've learnt that Elite is a game of patience and does need some imagination, which is good i guess.
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+1. have some rep for this and your other posts in this thread
Oppenheimer
Banned
well, I have seen the youtube and I no longer wonder what is there which is a little bit of a bummer.
exploration is dead easy imho, the only way to fix it is the DDF mechanics or something similar.
I know this is subjective but so be it.
It is going to be very difficult to fix this post release
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I just think it is a shame that in their rush to achieve release this year they had to chop off so many interesting things. Exploration as described in the exploration DDA was awesome.
And I can't help thinking - if they dumped that really cool stuff just for expediency, what more cool stuff will get dumped? How many more things promised in the DDA will we never see?
For example are passenger missions even in game yet? There is another DDA that looks really fascinating - intricate, involved, and I was planing to specialize in passenger service for awhile. How much of that will get scrapped?
And I can't help thinking - if they dumped that really cool stuff just for expediency, what more cool stuff will get dumped? How many more things promised in the DDA will we never see?
For example are passenger missions even in game yet? There is another DDA that looks really fascinating - intricate, involved, and I was planing to specialize in passenger service for awhile. How much of that will get scrapped?
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Well, the reality is that the DDA is a wishlist. Let's be realists - not everything on these lists will be done. I suppose it is quite possible that Frontier might surprise us by adding more functionality down the line that isn't mentioned in the DDA.
In terms of achieving DDA goals Frontier are playing the long game and we better get used to that. Realising this might help some people avoid the crushing disappointment and subsequent anger that is evident on the forums. Of course that doesn't mean that I'm no longer concerned for the game. Some days I think it's on a knife edge while other days I'm happy to trust in their skill.
So the centre has already been reached? That's disappointing. It does demonstrate that the current exploration mechanic is somewhat limited. When I was testing exploration, there were several things that I concluded didn't feel right (IMO):
1 - Why are all the stars visible in the Galactic map, and all have names? I would have thought that for game-play purposes, most should be hidden until an explorer finds them (via a 'discovered jump-point' or something).
2 - Using the Advanced discovery scanner removes any satisfaction from discovering objects in a system (because it then become click-wait-FSD-click-wait-FSD-click-wait...)
3 - The mechanism for the Detailed Surface Scanner is pretty lame (click-wait). How about orbiting an object in FSD to build up a scan of the surface in detail? (er... like the name suggests).
4 - A player can only sell exploration data to Universal Cartographics. Why not have the ability to sell/give this data to another player? It would work well for group efforts like the FGE.
I think the problem is that once the game is 'released', then these things will become set-in-stone. I think this will be a pity, because with a galaxy of 400 billion stars/systems, exploration could be one of the major draws for the game (as long as it's implemented correctly right from the beginning).
1 - Why are all the stars visible in the Galactic map, and all have names? I would have thought that for game-play purposes, most should be hidden until an explorer finds them (via a 'discovered jump-point' or something).
2 - Using the Advanced discovery scanner removes any satisfaction from discovering objects in a system (because it then become click-wait-FSD-click-wait-FSD-click-wait...)
3 - The mechanism for the Detailed Surface Scanner is pretty lame (click-wait). How about orbiting an object in FSD to build up a scan of the surface in detail? (er... like the name suggests).
4 - A player can only sell exploration data to Universal Cartographics. Why not have the ability to sell/give this data to another player? It would work well for group efforts like the FGE.
I think the problem is that once the game is 'released', then these things will become set-in-stone. I think this will be a pity, because with a galaxy of 400 billion stars/systems, exploration could be one of the major draws for the game (as long as it's implemented correctly right from the beginning).
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