[POLL] PvE, PvP, PvAll - What is the playstyle you want in ED?

What is the playstyle you want in the ONLINE version of ED ?

  • Everything, a good mix of PvE and PvP with as little restrictions as possible

    Votes: 209 62.4%
  • I only want to PvE, alone or with other players, I want PvP to be restricted/optional

    Votes: 119 35.5%
  • I only want to PvP and kill real player ships, no NPC robot ships

    Votes: 7 2.1%

  • Total voters
    335
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Just keep ignoring the arguments and continue to complain about the WoT comparison :)

Your arguments are based entirely on what YOU want for YOU... it's very hard to actually argue against that when you won't accept that other people want something different.

As it happens I will be playing Ironman (at least until I die) so, for me, the PvE debate is me trying to consider other people's desires, quite aside from my own. Where they overlap is that I only want people in my PvP game who WANT to participate in PvP so I see a PvE world as an advantage from the point of view too - I will KNOW that everyone I encounter, no matter how that encounter goes, is playing with a desire (or at least acceptance) of PvP otherwise they'd be in PvE. :)
 
It's analogous to being able to pay to reach Elite status faster, which is already confirmed long ago as a feature for ED.

Have you correct you slightly on this.

Being a Founder grants you access to Elite missions, not the rating itself - that you still need to earn.

(In effect: A Harmless pilot doing Elite rating missions)
 
Your arguments are based entirely on what YOU want for YOU... it's very hard to actually argue against that when you won't accept that other people want something different.

Just to play devils advocate here - the question posed is "what playstyle do you want in the online version of E: D?".

You don't have to consider every possible person's desires (that's for them to do themselves, and state as such) - the question is what YOU want. Nothing else. :p
 
For this thread to die ... too many times round has bored me to death.

Was a good thread - poll served its purpose - the majority of people want some kind of mix - great stuff.

Next .. we need to see how FD respond, if at all ...

Completely agree.
 
Just to play devils advocate here - the question posed is "what playstyle do you want in the online version of E: D?".

You don't have to consider every possible person's desires (that's for them to do themselves, and state as such) - the question is what YOU want. Nothing else. :p

Indeed... but the discussion (from all sides) has been about more than that. :)

And, as mentioned in my last post (and no doubt many others), my PvP world will be better when I know it's all desired/consensual because there is a great alternative available. :)
 
Have you correct you slightly on this.

Being a Founder grants you access to Elite missions, not the rating itself - that you still need to earn.

(In effect: A Harmless pilot doing Elite rating missions)
It's not the Founder title I'm talking about, I'm talking about the ability to buy ingame cash with real currency, which in effect is speeding up progress. Not strictly "pay to win", though I can see why people don't like it.
 
It needs to run like the original Elite, where the police presence in the more lawfull systems is such that the ramifications for "ganking" are prohibitive, but as the system slides towards Anarchy the police activity and response gets less and less to non existent.

No need to fix areas as you just navigate the star systems staying within the legal state that you are comfotable with. Obviously you may get "ganked" in a high legal system BUT the perpertrators will also be at a lot higher risk of being destroyed/captured themselves.

There should be some form of system in place where pilots can get the latest news bulletin from a system that they plan to visit where the number of pirate attacks is listed (maybe including if these were by NPC's or humans) and then a considered decision to go or avoid can be taken. If for instance an anarchic system has had no human pirating reported and you are comfortable fighting NPC's then you can make an informed choice.

As a pirate or "ganker" I can't imagine it would be much fun hanging around a star system waiting to pounce on the less proficient human pilot, when no-one pitches up because they have been pre-warned, or those that do turn up are actually the good guys and are actually S**t Hot fighters.
 
And, as mentioned in my last post (and no doubt many others), my PvP world will be better when I know it's all desired/consensual because there is a great alternative available. :)

In case you didn´t read this interesting article:
http://www.wodnews.net/Blogs/tabid/82/Article/940/The-value-of-non-consensual-PvP.aspx

The value of non-consensual PvP

"I don't like PvP. I have tried it in every MMO I've played, from World of Warcraft to EVE Online, and sorry, I'm not a fan. But HfxTenor's post about Powergamers and their value started me thinking about PvP. So, here I am, the self-proclaimed carebear, writing about non-consensual PvP and how I see its place in World of Darkness. And you might find this surprising, but I think it would constitute an essential part of the game. Why? Because I think it would make the game better.

Now, by better, I don't mean nicer. I don't mean that it will be more enjoyable for me. In fact, I can't stand non-consensual PvP. It gets in my way. It slows me down. It keeps me from being able to play the game the way I want. However, I've given this a lot of thought lately, and I think that there is a certain trade-off between what is immediately enjoyable, and mechanics that make for a better game.

I want an immersive game. I want a game that captures the darkness, paranoia and conflict of endless manipulations and ruthless power struggles. Plans within plans. Sadly, scripted PvE content, as immersive as that can be, is predictable, once you've played it through. No developer has the resources to create quality content faster than gamers can consume it. What's more, players tend to risk less when fighting an NPC faction. The fact is, no matter how much you destroy of an NPC's assets, you know that no real loss was incurred. You are risking your hard-won assets against a shadow opponent, whose resources are essentially limitless. That is not the case when fighting other players. What MMOs need, to keep us interested, are dynamic conflict drivers with measurable consequences. Player-driven content and emergent gameplay. Player interaction, even if it's forced.

Non-consensual PvP is a conflict driver. It forces player interaction. You may not like it, but that's ok. You don't have to. It will still make your game better, because you don't like it. It will force you into certain types of fun, which you might otherwise avoid. You may not find dealing with a childish ganker particularly immersive, but the ganker himself is not important. The threat of the ganker is important. He is playing a part that needs to be played. He is making the world dangerous. He is giving you someone to dislike, and that gives you a chance to forge alliances with others who feel the same way. In the long term, that is what makes a game more interesting. And if you read or watch Game of Thrones, I would compare your average griefer to a kind of Joffrey. (I'm just picking a villain that will be familiar to many fellow nerds. Feel free to substitute his name with any other truly dislikeable villain.)

Of course, nobody likes Joffrey. We're not supposed to. Most of us hate him. Nevertheless, he is necessary. It would be a nicer show (or book) if he never existed, but it would not be better. We want to be rid of him, but then we would lack a character to hate and fear, and we need that. He is a necessary conflict driver, someone who can make us worry for our favorites, someone against whom our heroes can rally. We want to see him stopped, to see him fail, but in order for that to be interesting, he must succeed often enough to present a real threat.

It should be obvious where I'm going with this. PvP provides conflict. It produces villains. PvP presents the threat of unpredictable opponents, who are at least as strong as we are, and often stronger. Without them, we would have no need to put aside our personal interests and band together. There would be no need for protectors, for support. Our personal storylines would fall flat, because the alliances necessary to survive in a hostile world become meaningful only when the world is actually hostile. Within those alliances, friendships are forged that sometimes even transfer into real life. As much as I enjoy my whims, I get bored with them after a while. I don't get bored of my friends.

How extensively this type of gameplay will affect the game remains to be seen, of course. If the world is too hostile, it becomes predictable again. We all need to be able to play the way we want, at least some of the time. But after careful consideration, I think I would be disappointed if non-consensual PvP were missing, even though I plan to avoid it as much as possible. Strange, but true."
 
In case you didn´t read this interesting article:
http://www.wodnews.net/Blogs/tabid/82/Article/940/The-value-of-non-consensual-PvP.aspx

The value of non-consensual PvP

You are quoting the first post someone made in a blog about a game that was slated to be open PvP with permadeath ever since it was revealed to be in pre-production over half a decade ago. A game that is being made by a company whose only successful product up to now is a game whose cornerstones are non-consensual PvP and player looting - and, what's more, perhaps the only actually successful such game outside Asia.

Sorry, but not only is that post biased from the start due to the game it's about, no matter how much the author calls himself a carebear, I also don't think it holds any more weight than any single post here on these forums even if you disregard the bias.

Besides, I really disagree with that author as to the need of griefers in a game; I see nothing that an NPC can't provide in a way that is better for the game as a whole and less prone to drive players away. If the author was right we would have a lot more full PvP MMOs out there, and the ones that attempted that role being more successful, instead of the current landscape where only EVE is able to thrive in that genre and the rest seem to languish, barely bringing enough cash to keep the development team active.

To be fair, some of what he describes is true. Adversity can make people band together, create strong bonds, drive people to experience things they would have avoided. The problem is that most people won't; a game is not real life, so unsatisfied players can just leave the game, find something else to play, and go have their fun there; if the game makes too many players take that choice, if it attempts to take too many players too far out of their comfort zones, it either dies or has to change ways.

Take UO and the MMOs that followed it, for example. UO was used as a basis by about every big MMO of the next generation, including EQ, WoW, and SWG; most of those MMOs actually included developers from the original UO team. Ever wondered why the kind of free PvP that UO had at first was not replicated in those games? It was because every publisher, every development team, and even the ex-UO developers now part of those teams noticed that, despite whatever positive elements the open PvP allowed to bloom, the negative elements were far more prevalent, both driving more players away than was acceptable and drastically increasing support calls from players that couldn't enjoy the game due to the antics of PKers.

Even UO backed down from it's open PvP origins; back in 2000 UO's player base showed signs of being stagnant, poised to fall, when an expansion was released adding a new world, Trammel, where PvP was only possible by consent. After that UO's player base greatly increased, almost tripling it's previous numbers in the next couple years before finally starting to decline.

The way PKers can drive overall population down was known from the time of the MUDs, before graphical MMOs were born, BTW; many such games were killed because PKers started to proliferate, driving the rest of the players away, and at the end the PKers left due to lack of prey. Richard Bartle describes this process, and what leads to it, in it's 1996 paper titled "Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades: Players who Suit Muds" (http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm).
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The way PKers can drive overall population down was known from the time of the MUDs, before graphical MMOs were born, BTW; many such games were killed because PKers started to proliferate, driving the rest of the players away, and at the end the PKers left due to lack of prey.
Good reference.

With the lack of balance with respect to player role selection in the artificial environment that will exist in the game, as many players as want to can become pirates.

If there are too many pirates, and those pirates prefer to prey on PC traders rather than NPC traders, it is likely that traders will become bored rather quickly. In RL the top predator would compete for limited resources with numbers being limited naturally. In E: D, the top predator can simply start to prey on the (probably) unlimited supply of NPC traders, therefore no control on predator numbers - however they may drift off due to lack of PC players to prey on. At the same time, Frontier may not gain as many new players if the reputation of the game suffers due to perceptions that PKers are abundant.
 
At the same time, Frontier may not gain as many new players if the reputation of the game suffers due to perceptions that PKers are abundant.

I think this last sentence is the real key. It's not necessary for Frontier to reduce the griefing problem in any way whatsoever - it's only necessary that the perception of the problem is reduced.

This might be because whether acts of player killing is going on or not is less clear (e.g. due to PC/NPC status being hidden), or because it's only occurring between parties that enjoy that (e.g. due to consensual PvP or any of the split options), or because it actually has been reduced (e.g.... I guess PvE-only?). But it is entirely possible to keep the griefers in the game (if you feel that's necessary) whilst also making them less of a problem.
 
The way PKers can drive overall population down was known from the time of the MUDs, before graphical MMOs were born, BTW; many such games were killed because PKers started to proliferate, driving the rest of the players away, and at the end the PKers left due to lack of prey.

Agreed.

There is also another problem, as these kinds of characters/groups proliferate they bring along with them no end of the worst kind of sociopaths.

The article below here pretty much describes it all and what would happen if the likes of Fromhell here had his way. Personally, I'll have nothing to do with games that cater for these kind of characters. Life too short to have it screwed over constantly by these kinds of jokers. Fortunately, FD have seen this kind of junk coming and modeled for it to have as little effect as possible.

http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/magazine/16-02/mf_goons?currentPage=all
 
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