Elite: Easymode. NPCs stop shooting 'your' target...whatever next? (rambling rant)
- Thread starter eza
- Start date
This has nothing to do with "watering down". As I've pointed out repeatedly, reducing the kill-stealing of NPCs will, if anything, make them effectively more like human players, not less. It's not a question of "easy" versus "difficult", it's a way to mitigate the fact that AIs cannot yet truly think for themselves, so need to have unnatural seeming behaviours "cooked in" in order to produce the overall impression of intelligence.
Having security ships routinely showing up and stealing far more kills than other players doesn't make the game "too difficult" for anyone. It just makes it irritating and unrealistic.
Sandro Sammarco left this comment in another thread. to quote them "It doesn't affect the AI, it's just prevents the police from kill stealing/trolling so much."
instead of 10 seconds perhaps they should cut that number in half or more thus making it harder but still preserving the bounty.
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They still kill steal, its just the human still gets paid as if he killed them to stop us chucking our hotas through the window.
All we have to do is hit them within 10 seconds of them blowing up to get the credit.
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Tar Stone
Banned
Here's a very recent interview that David Braben did with PC Gamer:
http://youtu.be/vN2BWY872M8?t=6m50s
At 06:50 David talks about something that he calls 'developer difficulty', were he describes the problem of having developers judge the difficulty of the game. Having intimate knowledge of the game, a developer will tend to make things more and more difficult, to the point that newcomers will be completely put off.
So it's clear that since launch, there has been a gradual reduction of difficulty based on feedback from newcomers on the forum.
In my opinion, I think Frontier are making a big mistake here that will hurt the longevity of the game for everyone. This is a sound policy in theory but I think the changes are being made much too quickly in response to the forum.
I'm not a developer and I don't have intimate knowledge of the game. I came in at premium beta, and played sparingly up until launch when I really got stuck in. I'm shocked at how quickly and quietly things are being made safer.
In the opening scenes of The Phantom Menace, Ewan McGregor and that other bloke are chopping their way through hordes of cloned mechanical storm trooper things, it's all easy and quick and painless, we never see our protagonists being hurt or wounded, so we never really feel they are in any danger. In contrast when Luke gets his hand lopped off in Empire Strikes Back, we feel our hero's pain, and get to enjoy his struggle to redemption, overcoming all the odds. This is how you create tension and drama. The original Elite had it in spades, you were always up against the wall BUT it never felt unfair or arbitrary.
I really think Frontier should take a serious look at how they are gauging feedback, there is a very fast move toward one extreme happening a bit too quickly.
I absolutely understand that there are genuine complaints about some mechanics that feel too punishing, and game design 101 tells you that the player should never feel like the game is against them - only the enemies and bad guys should be against them. I get that.
If Frontier do in fact want to create a less unforgiving experience to appeal to a wider market, that's up to them, but I have had exactly the opposite impression from them going back over a year now. As someone who was only putting in a night a week since beta, I thought they had the balance pretty much spot on and I was starting to really get into it.
http://youtu.be/vN2BWY872M8?t=6m50s
At 06:50 David talks about something that he calls 'developer difficulty', were he describes the problem of having developers judge the difficulty of the game. Having intimate knowledge of the game, a developer will tend to make things more and more difficult, to the point that newcomers will be completely put off.
So it's clear that since launch, there has been a gradual reduction of difficulty based on feedback from newcomers on the forum.
In my opinion, I think Frontier are making a big mistake here that will hurt the longevity of the game for everyone. This is a sound policy in theory but I think the changes are being made much too quickly in response to the forum.
I'm not a developer and I don't have intimate knowledge of the game. I came in at premium beta, and played sparingly up until launch when I really got stuck in. I'm shocked at how quickly and quietly things are being made safer.
In the opening scenes of The Phantom Menace, Ewan McGregor and that other bloke are chopping their way through hordes of cloned mechanical storm trooper things, it's all easy and quick and painless, we never see our protagonists being hurt or wounded, so we never really feel they are in any danger. In contrast when Luke gets his hand lopped off in Empire Strikes Back, we feel our hero's pain, and get to enjoy his struggle to redemption, overcoming all the odds. This is how you create tension and drama. The original Elite had it in spades, you were always up against the wall BUT it never felt unfair or arbitrary.
I really think Frontier should take a serious look at how they are gauging feedback, there is a very fast move toward one extreme happening a bit too quickly.
I absolutely understand that there are genuine complaints about some mechanics that feel too punishing, and game design 101 tells you that the player should never feel like the game is against them - only the enemies and bad guys should be against them. I get that.
If Frontier do in fact want to create a less unforgiving experience to appeal to a wider market, that's up to them, but I have had exactly the opposite impression from them going back over a year now. As someone who was only putting in a night a week since beta, I thought they had the balance pretty much spot on and I was starting to really get into it.
I know; hence "effectively". Ideally, to make NPCs truly like human players, you'd give them a certain probability of not attacking a ship that another person is currently fighting (some would, some wouldn't). But although none of us really know the exact heuristics that the current AI ships work on, it's a reasonable bet that that would be a highly nontrivial piece of logic.
So like I said, cook some unnatural seeming behaviour—such as relinquishing the bounty based on who shot when—to give the overall effect of a more naturally intelligent behaviour; i.e. NPCs no longer being disproportionately responsible for lost bounties.
That's why the "slippery slope" argument is a fallacy. It's based on the assumption that the change was made to make the game easier, and that is a fundamentally unsafe assumption.
There are all sorts of problems defining "damage done". Does it include shield damage? Should power plant damage count more than cargo hatch damage? How long do you keep track of player A's damage to X if (s)he switches targets or dies, then player B kills X? How does collision damage get treated? That's off the top of my head; there's probably a heap of other considerations.
What about the poor AI bounty hunters, no one loves them. They spend ages dogfighting with a NPC pirate, only for the player to show up, fire 1 shot, not even have to kill the target, and steal all the reward 
Ok, I honestly don't see it. I don't know how NPC's not getting paid for bounties they are supposed to earn makes them more like human players. I think it makes them much less like human players, and that is the problem.
There is no reason from an RP standpoint that I can see why a player attacking a ship should give them a 10 second window (or however much time) where nobody else can get paid for killing the bounty. If that were the case no one else besides players would hunt bounties, there would be no incentive. Certainly if they were players and not NPC's they would be all over the forums complaining about it being unfair and broken...
You are supposed to get paid for killing ships with bounties. Not for attacking ships with bounties. This was too difficult for some who couldn't target subsystems or who don't think its fair that they attacked something and didn't get paid so they complained, and it was changed so people could farm money easier even if it makes no sense in game for any reasonable reason.
Wait, why would players or NPC's not attack a bounty ship while bounty hunting? Don't they want the bounty? How is it more human like to act in a way that is counter to your own best interest in during a competition for resources?
The bounties were never "lost" they were paid to whoever killed the wanted ship, or at least they used to be.
To me longetivity lies in challenge. This is my first space sim game. While the initial impressions were superb I am slowly getting annoyed by the lack of challenge this game offers. There are some great game mechanics in place but they are currently disabled by very low difficulty (no need to hone your pilot skills, everything is made of rubber... no interdictions and if you happen to get one evade chance is 100% even for the lowest of space wrecks).
I have seen this in many games before. Was hoping finally someone grew pair of balls and decided to cater to older gamers disgusted by quick events, silver spoon feeding etc. but it appers this might not be the case afterall. Well, too bad... A pity really.
I have seen this in many games before. Was hoping finally someone grew pair of balls and decided to cater to older gamers disgusted by quick events, silver spoon feeding etc. but it appers this might not be the case afterall. Well, too bad... A pity really.
What about the poor AI bounty hunters, no one loves them. They spend ages dogfighting with a NPC pirate, only for the player to show up, fire 1 shot, not even have to kill the target, and steal all the reward
Haha pretty much. When I'm at a Nav Point or USS I search for lasers firing in the distance, then I swoop in and steal the kill.
As an aside. I get interdicted probably 1/3 of the time I go into SC. I feel it may have to do with traveling in my Viper tho. I got interdicted maybe twice in the few hours I had a Sidey. And only once since I upgraded to the Cobra.
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Its only added to make it easier to be rewarded, thats its only purpose, in my book that is watering down. Its bending the rules so players dont get frustrated, cos we have zero tolerance for not feeling like we are winning. Players shouldnt need rewards and to be patted on the back as often as possible or fear of them throwing the towel in.
You can tell that by the attitude of the people who are for it.
They dont care about the kill, the hunt, the fun you had trying, or staying alive to fight another day, they only care about what the cash reward is at the end. If they spent 20 mins and got no cash at the end the game should go in the bin.
And they think the only reason people are against it is because they are some hardcore pilot who can still get the reward without it. When really its because they dont want to be rewarded for something they didnt do. This is completely beyond them though. What?? you can play a game without needing a constant pat on the back, no way..
Same reason they wanted interdictions toned down. The less interdictions the faster the credits go up. Which is why grinding is so popular, and also why taking too long to grind is a popular complaint.
They need a steady and reliable reminder they are doing a great job otherwise its garbage, which is why almost all devs now obsess about lowering the threshold.
Its a game you cant lose, yet people are still complaining they cant win.
To be honest this is just another little one on the list, It seems its a constant whinge to have the game made more and more safety netted that any sort of obstacle in the game has to be removed cos people have no time for anything other than plain sailing.
I played all night solid, I never had a single threat, I never fired a laser, no interdiction, no obstacle, no fear of death, no damage, no thinking, my heart never beated fast than just above coma levels, Then I even questioned why I'm playing. And then I realised this is exactly as we requested. This the none tedious fun players demanded.
It is amusing that people defend NPC kill stealing as a "challenging" mechanic. It adds nothing to the game except annoyance and a waste of time. Same with player kill stealing, it was determined through years of trial and error across various MMO's that kill stealing detracts from normal gameplay by encouraging griefing and low skill playstyles. To get a bounty it should require a minimun of 50% or 75% contribution towards the kill for example.. maybe not those numbers or even that mechanic but something along those lines.
Now if the game is too easy then it is a matter of doing 1000 other things to increase difficulty.. like dmg output, smarter AI, enemy accuracy etc. Im pretty sure there will be plenty of challenge in ED but this is 1.0 and it will take months if not years for a game like this to fully mature.
When it comes down to it no game has ever been able to perfectly tune a games challenge for every player and in MMO's the range of player skill is diverse. It ultimatley comes down to the individual to create there own challenges. If you take the easy road and fail to find challenge that doesnt mean a game is to easy or you are that good. It means you are a noob.
Now if the game is too easy then it is a matter of doing 1000 other things to increase difficulty.. like dmg output, smarter AI, enemy accuracy etc. Im pretty sure there will be plenty of challenge in ED but this is 1.0 and it will take months if not years for a game like this to fully mature.
When it comes down to it no game has ever been able to perfectly tune a games challenge for every player and in MMO's the range of player skill is diverse. It ultimatley comes down to the individual to create there own challenges. If you take the easy road and fail to find challenge that doesnt mean a game is to easy or you are that good. It means you are a noob.
The whiners will also be the ones that play the game for a few months, if that, then move on to the next thing. It's the people who enjoy the "cut-throat galaxy" that will be in for the long haul. Please Frontier think about that before you continue down the slippery slope of tweaking to match the cries of the it's-too-hard-crowd.
Remember the vast majority of people don't say anything when they are happy. Note that you changed something to suit the too-hard crowd and now those that were happy are coming out of the wood work.
You're focusing on the mechanic, not the overall effect. See below.
That's an assumption; one that I consider extremely unsafe. Has anyone from FD stated that that's why they changed it?
The bounty itself is a short-term win, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's always in your best interest. If I see another player fighting some ship, I will generally leave the kill to them. Call it professional courtesy, if you like; or call it not wanting to have them turn on me while I'm taking on my next target, or deliberately fly into my shots in order to turn me wanted, or otherwise seek revenge for a kill they felt they deserved. I know lots of other pilots think likewise. You might not, but many who take the long view do.
Since AI ships aren't capable of thinking this way, they are far more likely to "steal" kills from other pilots, and indeed that is what has been observed. By adjusting the bounty allocation mechanism, you don't magically make the AI smarter, but you get the same effect—a reduction in bounties being stolen by NPCs, bringing them into line with human pilots.
Lost, stolen, ninja'd, whatever you want to call it.
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Sorry, but your entire post is built on this straw man. As I've pointed out repeatedly, it has nothing to do with making the game easier. Sure, there are some people complaining that progression is too slow, who seem to want the game to be easier, and I've gone out of my way to argue against those people. I do not want a watered down game. But this change does not do that, and there is no reason to assume that FD's motives in making this change was to pander to such people.
Let go of this silly notion that everything is about "easy" or "difficult"; it's not about choosing to make the game easy or hard, it's about making it better or worse. This particular change is for the better.
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How is guaranteeing that you get the bounty not making the game easier? People would employ tactics to get the killing shot. That tactic is no longer needed. EASIER. a Once a fight starts and you're a decent enough pilot to not get killed, the bounty is yours. Unless they FSD away....guess what's getting nerfed next?