The "No Game" comments

Fenris Wolf

Fenris Wolf
I posted this on one of the Facebook groups I'm a member of in response to a few people saying that there was no 'Game' in Elite and that there was nothing to keep them playing.

It prompted quite a discussion, with no flaming, no name calling, no tempers getting heated... just a nice open discussion on the current games market and what Elite is. I thought I would re-post it here...

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Picture this... I don't know if you are old enough to remember or if you were alive
then, but back in the 1980s computer games all followed (pretty much) the same structure...

You had three lives, and perhaps a power-up, a bomb or a bonus item of some sort. You could get a bonus life/bomb/item at various points through the game. You played till you lost your lives and that was it.

Then along came Elite, which through away the rule book and tried to do something different. And it did. And without Elite breaking the rules back then you probably wouldn't have games like GTA, Eve, Warcraft, etc.,

Now, 30yrs later it is trying to break the mold again by throwing away the new 'rule book' for online gaming. Look at the games that are out there... What do you see?

You see a selection of game that all appear to be different from each other, but have a closer look... Nearly all of them follow the same pattern (or rules).
1 - Start game with big introduction placing you in the middle of a big event.
2 - Make the player the most important character in the event.
3 - Give player a walkthough and then set stages for them to complete
4 - At the end of each stage give the player a bonus
5 - At the end of a set of stages, give them a boss fight and a bonus
6 - Repeat till end of story.

Now, I enjoy some of these games myself, play a lot of them. But you are basically following the same process through each game.

Now here comes Elite...
1 - It places you in a live galaxy.
2 - You aren't the most important person in the game.
3 - It allows you to find your own way.
4 - They provide a set of events which you can decide to interact with 'if' you want to.
5 - There are no boss fights, but your interactions actually influence how the events/story evolves.
6 - There is no end of story.

But there is one major thing needed... An Imagination!

That is what is lacking in the other games, They give you everything and you don't need to put any of yourself in to the game. Elite is different...

Instead of being a game that plans your every move and leads you down a set path, Elite is totally open.

Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.
 

Mephane

Mephane
culyerscott said:
I can play the game with no computer if I use my imagination...i don't even have to spend money buying it!. I can also imagine that it is a complete and fully functioning game!
Click to expand...

Le sigh. The OP was about the differences between Elite and most other games, not about whether this one is complete or not (hint: the devs have always been very open about Elite staying a WIP). Your rant is totally unnecessary in this thread.
 

Heathy

Heathy
I think the main problem is 'using your imagination' and 'this is what games were like in the 80s' those 2 things fail to see that neither of them should be factors in this age of gaming. If you don't role play then your not going to be getting much from an imagination, and well this isn't the 80s plain and simple.

I find the 'use your imagination' to be condescending.
 
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Arkantes

Arkantes
In an age when minecraft and its clones flourish like there's no tomorrow, I don't see your point OP, ED is not really bringing anything new that it already didn't 20 years ago. The only really new part is the size of the playground, but that's a scalability issue.

PS: people aren't asking for a story, they're asking for proper interactivity with the universe, and that includes proper feedback.
 
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Fenris Wolf

Fenris Wolf
Heathy said:
I find the 'use your imagination' to be condescending.
Click to expand...

Then you have completely missed the point of my post.

I didn't say that 'this is the 80s'. What I said it that Braben & Bell stepped outside the box of what was expected from games in the 80s.

Now, Braben is doing it again in 2014/2015. Stepping outside the box that has been built around games (and gamers!) to give them something different.


And I really can't believe that you serious think this:

Heathy said:
I think the main problem is 'using your imagination' and 'this is what games were like in the 80s' those 2 things fail to see that neither of them should be factors in this age of gaming.
Click to expand...

You are saying that you shouldn't have to use your imagination in playing a game?

That totally dumbfounds me.
 

Jason S

J
I would rather play elite than story led games.

If I want a story I just read a book or go to the movies.

Elite is an experience, perhaps not even really a game, more an experience or space life simulator.

Really though more content would eventually improve it, especially planetary landings if it was done well with interesting locations and things to do on the planets. Many planets should have star ports on the planets with bars and shops. Race events near the surface would be cool as well. If done well it could be really good.
 

Xbob42

X
ED is not breaking any molds by simply not having any features yet. If it actually had all the features they're going to sell us (Ha!) in the expansions, then it would be incredible. As it stands... it's a whole lot of nothing. In Space Engineers, KSP or Starmade, I can use my imagination for real... to build space crafts! And I have to figure out how to route power to them, where to put thrusters, how cool I want my cockpit to look, etc. My imagination makes those games ten times better and is a huge part OF the game.

The imagination excuse for ED makes no sense... There's a universe, missions, etc. What is my imagination going to do? I can't build anything, I can't manipulate anything. I can't even help other players or play properly with my friends. Am I supposed to be making my own "story?" Well, I do that just by navigating the universe, I do that in any video game. My imagination shouldn't have to REPLACE the video game, it should ENHANCE it.

Elite changed the gaming world in the 80s.

Right now, it's ironically just trying to recreate its old self, which contrary to what the crusty old folks around here say, is not actually revolutionary or ground-breaking -- there's plenty of games where you can explore endlessly and make up your own stories, and many of them are much harder than this game. :p
 

Heathy

Heathy
Fenris Wolf said:
:

You are saying that you shouldn't have to use your imagination in playing a game?

That totally dumbfounds me.
Click to expand...

well enjoy being dumbfounded, because I don't role play (i couldn't even if i wanted to the player interaction in this game is one step above zero), I take it for what it is, which has gotten pretty boring after about 10hrs. sure its fun for those 10 hrs, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking 'ITS SO MUCH MORE' when its clearly not yet.

i personally don't need story or shiny set pieces, i just want some sand in my sandbox. i think i have enough grains to build the foundation of my castle.
 
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Muthax

M
Great post, I was about to say that you gonna get people call you 'sycophant' or worse, but of course I am too late.....

EDIT: hell, it's like dropping liters of blood in the sea...
 

streki

streki
Elite was a very unique experience back then. There really has been nothing like it since. Space games yes, but as you mentioned, they tended to put you at the centre of their story.

Today's generation are far more experienced gamers than we were when we got the original Elite.

Unfortunately, their experience is entirely dominated by games that again put the player at the centre of the situation, with huge set pieces and a story-on-rails. Essentially brainwashed into a expectation of what games should be in order to be good.

This is not a criticism of youth, but rather an observation of the gaming industry over at least the last decade.

ED today (like Elite back in the 80s) is a unique game - it demands your imagination to "get" the experience. If you've only ever played games that drag you along from plot point to plot point, punctuated with specific goals and set pieces, and boss battles, then understand that you should not expect Elite to give you the same experience.

Its not broken because it doesn't do this.
 

Jonney Napalm

J
I'm an old git and remember playing the original Elite. I've played games, in one form or another, ever since.
I play an eclectic mix of games from MMO's to FPS's and flight sims to puzzlers.
I've never really liked platformers or games that have a set path that you must follow, so this is why I probably like this latest incarnation of Elite. I'm the sort of person who sometimes likes to dip in or out of a game or just wander about, or get heavily involved if the time and mood suit.
I truly see Elite as a game that requires you to make an effort, to interact and make decisions, and you'll be rewarded for doing this. You can also just wander through this vast universe, trade a bit here and collect the odd bounty there.
I'm currently just trading and bounty hunting, and collecting the odd bit of cartographic data, building some funds and upgrading my ship whilst I learn, and then I'm going to get serious and get involved with the stories that are going on.
Empire, Federation or Alliance? That will soon be the question.
I see this game as a long term prospect, that will require me to put in some time and effort to get my gaming rewards.
No instant gratification to be had here, no 'credit card', no 'buy now, pay later' mentality. You have to 'save for what you want'.
I like that, but that's maybe because I'm an old git, and remember when life was like that.
 

Muthax

M
Heathy said:
I think the main problem is 'using your imagination' and 'this is what games were like in the 80s' those 2 things fail to see that neither of them should be factors in this age of gaming. If you don't role play then your not going to be getting much from an imagination, and well this isn't the 80s plain and simple.

I find the 'use your imagination' to be condescending.
Click to expand...

Heathy, I suggest you go here and look up the reasons why the game IS like this (hint:because he didn't want to do a crappy game):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

I also found this, tha tcan help you either understand the game or at least give you hints on how to enjoy it:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=953044
 

Heathy

Heathy
reading threads about what the game hopes to be doesn't help me really does it?

again keep the shiny set pieces, story, instant action, give us sand to fill the sandbox.

I was watching some video on space engine and it pretty much dawned on me, elite is space engine with combat.

you have trade with commodities that don't do anything so you could call every single commodity 'frozen peas' and it really wouldn't change anything.

you have combat which is the highlight, dog fighting is fun, doing missions is rather pointless, when you can just sit in extraction zones grinding 20k bounty cobras all day.

then we have exploration, which is fun to see all the planets and stars, but very slow to do, find a system with 20 celestials spend 1hr scanning the system, move on.

they touted player interaction, the only player interaction i get is some guy asking me where to find the conflict zones of which i told him i also couldn't find, and ppl constantly crashing into stations, afk at a landing pad for 10-15 mins and all your hear is the station killing ppl like some sort of high tec meat grinder.
 
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Xbob42

X
streki said:
Elite was a very unique experience back then. There really has been nothing like it since. Space games yes, but as you mentioned, they tended to put you at the centre of their story.

Today's generation are far more experienced gamers than we were when we got the original Elite.

Unfortunately, their experience is entirely dominated by games that again put the player at the centre of the situation, with huge set pieces and a story-on-rails. Essentially brainwashed into a expectation of what games should be in order to be good.

This is not a criticism of youth, but rather an observation of the gaming industry over at least the last decade.

ED today (like Elite back in the 80s) is a unique game - it demands your imagination to "get" the experience. If you've only ever played games that drag you along from plot point to plot point, punctuated with specific goals and set pieces, and boss battles, then understand that you should not expect Elite to give you the same experience.

Its not broken because it doesn't do this.
Click to expand...

This is patently untrue. One of the biggest games this generation is Minecraft, which has no story to speak of and relies ENTIRELY on your imagination to make content. Except unlike Elite, you can actually express that imagination. Another is League of Legends or Dota 2, which have no real story and are extremely difficult and complex games to master. Eve Online puts you at the center of exactly nothing, and is entirely player-driven, from the market to the sectors, the game doesn't hold your hand and is a thousand times more hardcore than Elite, where you can lose everything you have, cargo equivalent to millions of real dollars.

Barring this, did anyone need to come and tell you, the first time you played Elite, why it was "so great"? No, it was great because it was great. Elite Dangerous is not amazing to me, because unlike the original, it breaks no new ground, has no content of any value.

"Use your imagination!"

Okay!

"Wow, look at that planet! Let me imagine what's on it, because there's no planetary landing yet!"

"Wow, my friend is stranded! Let me imagine how cool it would be if I could play with him properly in open play, and then let me imagine how cool it would be if there was a functioning system to help other players!"

"Wow, a capital ship! Let me imagine how cool it would be if it could actually be destroyed!"

"Wow, 400 billion star systems! Let me imagine how cool it would be if there was actually any significantly different content within them!"

"Wow, Elite Dangerous, let me imagine how cool it would be if they had actually finished developing the game instead of rushing it to meet the 30th anniversary and calling it 1.0!"
 

bassman

B
Fenris Wolf said:
Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.
Click to expand...

Other than some embryonic faction influence ED throws away almost everything "you" bring to the game and it rubs your face in the futility of your actions e.g. making the same NPC youve just taken 50% hull off of spawn in the next USS you visit fully repaired and with apparently no memory of the fact that 2 minutes ago you were in a fight to the death. I'm not saying your wrong to like it in its current form but those of us who are bothered by the sort of thing I described cant switch that off - an expectation of coherence in a game world is not something you can unlearn no matter how many people tell you that you just need "imagination".

Also, Elite, great game for the time admittedly, however it was neither the first nor the only game to have an open world: the first was atari star raiders, and then there were other ground breaking games like mike singletons lords of midnight (the first game with a fully persistent game entities and background simulation as far as I know). Throwing away the rule book is all well and good but you have to replace it with something new rather than just leave things out.
 
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