Eve IS Elite!
- Thread starter boringnick
- Start date
And why has that to be the case? Limiting this game to "Space Trucker 2014" and discarding the sequels of the 90s is a grave mistake. FFE had more features than Elite Dangerous has and if you opened up the FirstEnc.exe in a hex editor, there were huge bits of text that hinted at faction wars and escort missions and flyable BATTLE CRUISERS!
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1339&page=3&p=11638&viewfull=1#post11638
If Elite 4 would have been made a decade ago with FFE still in mind, it would look far more like Eve and X. That's very obvious.
It's unfortunate that some have such an aversion towards certain games (*cough* Eve *cough*) that they are willing to let Elite stagnate in its original 80s corset instead of being able to embrace features which were well on its way in the Frontier sequels (long before Eve).
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So what if EVE is Elite or Elite is EVE? Really, so what? Will you enjoy one or another less because of that? 
I dont care and I enjoy both.
I dont care and I enjoy both.
Walking your own road doesn't mean you can't get some tips from others on long-distance hiking.
But I agree, EVE is a little dislikeable. I picked it up for a few weeks while waiting until I could get ED. I hate the skill training system. I hate having to spend months to be able to partake in anything big with any degree of success. I hate the entirely player-driven economy. I utterly detest being unable to visit the vast majority of the EVE Universe because of pirates and player corporations.
But I do like parts of it. I like the ships, the factions, I like the feeling of finally getting into a cruiser or taking on a battlecruiser in a single frigate. It has its moments, but by and large it's frustrating and not worth the effort.
The community is also pretty bad, but such is true of any gaming community, and I suspect ED is no different. But what we both have in common is that we've got a lot of good people. I genuinely enjoy my corporation on EVE, and I'm sure I'll find similar in ED.
I have an eve character, on one account, sat in storage from 2001, it's never been in a corporation so the date clearly says 2001 in the info screen.
Eve online is an awful game. It's full, in my opinion, of nothing but liars and griefers.
Members of big corporations will leave their big corps, start a new corp, recruit a bunch of newbies, give them crappy ships, take them all off for a jolly explore and oh oops just so happen to run into their other big corp, all the newbies get blown into space, the gonks will leave and then rejoin their original big corp again. then they all pat themselves on the back for being able to get so many extra kills in low sec space without dying... Bunch of cowards if you ask me.
My biggest fear is that Elite will turn into the grief fest that Eve Online is, but Elite has an offline mode. I'll just go there, or join one of the no griefing type servers if it happens.
You could wipe out someones entire game in Elite, if they didn't have enough for ship insurance, just for your own narcissistic pleasure. That is griefing and it's completely and uttertly wrong!!!
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Completely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about features to improve in ED, not complaining about playstyles in EvE...
A feature i hope to see implemented is the ability of players that have a larger transport ship
being able to move player ships under contract to another place including compensation for the ferry.
Players should be able to give a rating to other players, after they have finished a contract,
so you can see whether a pilot is trustworthy or not.
What i would really hate to see included:
Eve skill system.. afk 1 year...
being able to move player ships under contract to another place including compensation for the ferry.
Players should be able to give a rating to other players, after they have finished a contract,
so you can see whether a pilot is trustworthy or not.
What i would really hate to see included:
Eve skill system.. afk 1 year...
Narcissistic pleasure? lol, it's not wrong, it's a game. That's like saying demanding rent from someone on monopoly is wrong. Strawman argument, you say? No, they're the same, one just has lasers while the other breaks apart families.
They're both competitive games and players can and will compete in them. You can do a lot more damage to someone by supporting the opposite side in a war, even if you two never encounter each other. Imagine all the countless hours of work you're going against by supporting the Empire instead of the Federation! That person was really looking forward to some democracy being spread, too. But you just HAVE to support slavers. You can also wipe out someone's entire game in Elite by preventing PvP and adding a layer of nerf foam to ED.
An open PVP sandbox where actions have consequences is ideal to me, personally.
Anyone walking into such an environment should be aware that they will get blown up eventually. Not always, no. But eventually it'll happen, and it'll probably be their fault. In PvP one thing I've noticed over the years is that you don't win by the merit of your own strategies and skill but by taking advantage of the screw-ups of your enemies, most of the time.
Pirates, marauding PvP'ers and more provide an added element of danger and immersion to the game. They force you to seriously consider your choices, and for people like me who love hunting down these folks they provide something that no game designer has been able to with their AI - a thinking enemy.
I´m laughing my rear off when they insist on Elite supposedly be a "sandbox" (nope) they like the term because it sounds oh so flashy, but when it comes to actual sandbox features they don´t want it "become Eve". Pure idiocy. Good news everyone a sandbox missing each and every sandbox activity is not a sandbox, just like a dog without ears and no tail that is not barking and likes swimming is very likely a duck or something else, think about it. But if you want, just keep calling it a dog if it makes people happy.
Elite is Elite 1985 with nicer graphics, other games evolved and Elite is stuck in 80ies wireframe generation game design. Well have fun grinding your heart out doing repetitive tasks for credits and the next cockpit, and the next cockpit, and the next cockpit, and the next cockpit until whoops no more cockpits to grind for, what now.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Any mistakes (or to be clearer, differences of opinion between forum users and Frontier) are Frontier's to make.
The game is not only about trading. The prequels were all single player - going multi-player for E: D does not mean that every multi-player social interaction trope needs to be dragged from every other multi-player game.
If Elite 4 were made a decade ago, we would not be discussing the relative merits of adding features from other games to E: D now.
I doubt that all players consider the game to be restrained in the manner you opine - we'll see how Frontier develops the game now that it has been successfully launched.
I have been opposed to the sort of EVE hate we get on here for a long time. I got EVE very early on because it was a new space game online and looked very interesting, having played the likes of Frontier and X. But to suggest it's Elite is a desperate stretch.
Yes there are some things that some old players deem "not Elite", which fit perfectly well and are in EVE too. Some players just want a remake of Elite, others are fans of the Elite genre and want this to push things forward again. Of course for that group, there are lots of ideas that couldn't be delivered in the early 90s which just work for the genre.
But Elite was not on a trajectory towards EVE. Story was added, yes - but it was the story of an individual participating in major events as a pilot on covert missions - not as the leader of a new Empire. Far more notable features of Frontier and FFE were moving from an EVE scale fantasy galaxy to a far vaster simulation of our own galaxy. Adding in planet surfaces and then fractal terrain to make the planets themselves part of the game world, with gameplay to match (mining, spying, bombing). All stuff which EVE stayed well clear from while focusing on completely different core gameplay.
Yes there are some things that some old players deem "not Elite", which fit perfectly well and are in EVE too. Some players just want a remake of Elite, others are fans of the Elite genre and want this to push things forward again. Of course for that group, there are lots of ideas that couldn't be delivered in the early 90s which just work for the genre.
But Elite was not on a trajectory towards EVE. Story was added, yes - but it was the story of an individual participating in major events as a pilot on covert missions - not as the leader of a new Empire. Far more notable features of Frontier and FFE were moving from an EVE scale fantasy galaxy to a far vaster simulation of our own galaxy. Adding in planet surfaces and then fractal terrain to make the planets themselves part of the game world, with gameplay to match (mining, spying, bombing). All stuff which EVE stayed well clear from while focusing on completely different core gameplay.
On the other hand, some of us are not trying to bash EvE, we're simply pointing out that controlling territory isn't possible in this game, due to the way the P2P network and play modes have been designed. It can't be added, it's impossible. You would know that, if you took some time to understand the networking model, instead of assuming that all games work the same way under the hood.
Choke points are an artificial construct, designed to encourage a certain form of gameplay. It works very well for EvE's game design. In a game like ED that models the Galaxy in a more accurate 3-dimensional way, you can't blockade huge areas of space by controlling a single star system. People go around. The network model also prevents territorial control by never co-locating everyone in the same game space. That's similar to WoW in some ways, and why player-driven territorial control of the entire gameworld isn't a feature of WoW either. It's a major distinction in both the design and the playing styles of EvE and Elite Dangerous, and why there isn't a direct line of descent between the two.
This isn't EvE-bashing. It's just a statement of fact, that many EvE players new to this game haven't quite got their head wrapped around.
I have not played EVE but loads of people say that you need to sink incredible number of hours into it to have fun.
In Elite I have fun for a couple of hours every now and then and perhaps less than six hours a week and still I have fun. Now if that is the case with EVE then cool, but is it?
In Elite I have fun for a couple of hours every now and then and perhaps less than six hours a week and still I have fun. Now if that is the case with EVE then cool, but is it?
I don't agree. Now, I wouldn't say that Eve is a bad game or that every feature from Eve is bad and wouldn't fit in Elite, they are quite different games in philosophy and Eve is certainly not "Elite taken to its logical conclusion". It's a game that has taken a few of the basic ideas of Elite and run in a different direction with them. It may very well, in some sense, be the logical conclusion for that direction, but it's not the only direction I could see the Elite concept being evolved towards.
X and Eve is what I would call genre hybrid games - they have some aspects of Elite style traditional space sims (X more so than Eve) combined with elements from RPG, RTS and 4X genres. Elite: Dangerous is a traditional flying and shooting space sim about a lone pilot versus the universe, which seems to frustrate people who come in expecting the more strategy game like gameplay of newer space games. That's not to say either approach is right or wrong, but people could try and research games before they buy them.
X and Eve is what I would call genre hybrid games - they have some aspects of Elite style traditional space sims (X more so than Eve) combined with elements from RPG, RTS and 4X genres. Elite: Dangerous is a traditional flying and shooting space sim about a lone pilot versus the universe, which seems to frustrate people who come in expecting the more strategy game like gameplay of newer space games. That's not to say either approach is right or wrong, but people could try and research games before they buy them.
But actual Elite sequels (Frontier, First Encounters) were well on its way to lose the "lone insignificant pilot vs the universe" corset.
You had events that changed the universe (FFE's story missions and newspapers), you had glimpses of base building and assets (mining machines), there was inactive code in Frontier and First Encounters for faction wars, cloaking devices, drones, battle cruisers and apparently multiple ships (ship hulls?)
http://www.sharoma.com/frontierverse/rumours.htm
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1339&page=3&p=11638&viewfull=1#post11638
Given all this, the direction for Elite 4 was pretty clear if it would have been released in the early 2000s. It would have been pretty X-y and Eve-y.
My problem with the community here is that some people don't want this game to outgrow the 80s original much and want even to forget about Frontier and First Encounters!
For a better or for worse, THIS IS AN ONLINE-GAME. I wish it had a true offline mode, but unfortunately there isn't. So, if it's an online game, THEN EMBRACE THE ONLINE ELEMENT! Add meaningful pvp (not in the vein of arena areas, but that you need other people to survive in the universe), rudimentary base building and faction wars, grouping, chat systems. Problem is, all the things that would elevate the game and take advantage of online gets shouted down here with "Eve has it already!", "Griefers!".
Currently this is pretty much a basic singleplayer game with less features than its predecessors (and where you have trouble to find another human player due the heavy instancing) BUT with an online-dongle! Elite Dangerous has all the disadvantages of an online-game (you need to be always online and you depend on the vendor to keep the servers working) but none of the benefits! (social interactions, clans, community feeling). And when people suggest to change the latter, a very vocal portion of the player base cries about Eve. That's so unsatisfying.
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Eve is 3rd person right?
Not played Eve but was interested by it so i took a look. After some investigation i realized it would not be a game i would enjoy for a variety of reasons.
Having said that, i'm not against good things that are in Eve making their way to ED... but i would imagine devs will focus first on things in the DDA before anything else (considering so much from there is still missing).
However, it is clear that there are a number of things in Eve which simply will not work in Elite without transforming it into a completely different type of game, things that would cause massive outcry from certain sections of the community (and depending on the feature, I could be included in that).
Saying Eve is Elite though is just flamebait. Its like saying Diablo is Chess. Sure, they have space, trading, and combat in common, but other than that they are completely different games, they are not even the same game type. One is first person, the other is third person. One is point and click, the other is joystick or mouse/keyboard which is closer to a FPS shooter.
And of course, one of the driving forces behind Eve is the whole PvP thing. PvP is the focus. Players spend hours trying to get bigger ships, which they then send into combat where the chance of losing your ship is really high. I remember reading about a massive battle where the value lost (in terms of real world dollars) was close to the GDP of a small country... that is very scary!
And therefore this is a fundamental difference. In Eve, you expect to sooner or later to loose your ship. Even if you make it to the big boys league, you are aiming to win in one of the big battles that takes place to further the cause of your clan. And you stand a real chance of loosing your ship, at which point you activate another ship, and another... until both sides have finished the war of attrition and one side emerges victorious.
This sort of play would be terrible for ED. Throwing away your ship (commander) is not in line with the experience of Elite. In Elite you are the pilot. And to translate this into real life, you would not stupidly get involved in some sort of all out war and risk death unless you were sure your derrier was covered and there was a good chance of coming out of it alive.
And this is also why so many ED players find PvP abhorrent. Its not that we are scardy cats, or bad pilots (although i myself put myself in both categories ). We just immerse deeply into the game and will not risk our ship and commander stupidly. You will never hear one of us say "I was loosing hull until i was down to 22%, but i got the final hit and won, but at the last second my thrusters were destroyed"... we would have run well before getting down to 22% hull. We are the commanders of the ships!
And therefore the idea of PvP is not something that makes sense. Why take on targets that could beat you? It makes no sense. Its like being a mugger and deliberately picking tough marks to steal from, instead of the old granny with the zimmer frame!
And conversely, its why we assume most player pirates who want PvP tend to be (and here it comes, that horrible word) gankers. We assume (and it has been sometimes confirmed!) they only pick on targets they can easily beat, because we would never stupidly attack a target that could kill us would we? And of course, attacking weaker people, well, isn't that ganking?
Not sure i've been completely clear here... half way down a bottle of cognac, but maybe i've made some valid points and given some food for thought.
Having said that, i'm not against good things that are in Eve making their way to ED... but i would imagine devs will focus first on things in the DDA before anything else (considering so much from there is still missing).
However, it is clear that there are a number of things in Eve which simply will not work in Elite without transforming it into a completely different type of game, things that would cause massive outcry from certain sections of the community (and depending on the feature, I could be included in that).
Saying Eve is Elite though is just flamebait. Its like saying Diablo is Chess. Sure, they have space, trading, and combat in common, but other than that they are completely different games, they are not even the same game type. One is first person, the other is third person. One is point and click, the other is joystick or mouse/keyboard which is closer to a FPS shooter.
And of course, one of the driving forces behind Eve is the whole PvP thing. PvP is the focus. Players spend hours trying to get bigger ships, which they then send into combat where the chance of losing your ship is really high. I remember reading about a massive battle where the value lost (in terms of real world dollars) was close to the GDP of a small country... that is very scary!
And therefore this is a fundamental difference. In Eve, you expect to sooner or later to loose your ship. Even if you make it to the big boys league, you are aiming to win in one of the big battles that takes place to further the cause of your clan. And you stand a real chance of loosing your ship, at which point you activate another ship, and another... until both sides have finished the war of attrition and one side emerges victorious.
This sort of play would be terrible for ED. Throwing away your ship (commander) is not in line with the experience of Elite. In Elite you are the pilot. And to translate this into real life, you would not stupidly get involved in some sort of all out war and risk death unless you were sure your derrier was covered and there was a good chance of coming out of it alive.
And this is also why so many ED players find PvP abhorrent. Its not that we are scardy cats, or bad pilots (although i myself put myself in both categories
). We just immerse deeply into the game and will not risk our ship and commander stupidly. You will never hear one of us say "I was loosing hull until i was down to 22%, but i got the final hit and won, but at the last second my thrusters were destroyed"... we would have run well before getting down to 22% hull. We are the commanders of the ships!And therefore the idea of PvP is not something that makes sense. Why take on targets that could beat you? It makes no sense. Its like being a mugger and deliberately picking tough marks to steal from, instead of the old granny with the zimmer frame!
And conversely, its why we assume most player pirates who want PvP tend to be (and here it comes, that horrible word) gankers. We assume (and it has been sometimes confirmed!) they only pick on targets they can easily beat, because we would never stupidly attack a target that could kill us would we? And of course, attacking weaker people, well, isn't that ganking?
Not sure i've been completely clear here... half way down a bottle of cognac, but maybe i've made some valid points and given some food for thought.
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