I'm going with gameplay and call it done. It's a game and Braben himself said that the World War 2 dogfight is what he has in mind for the game and it's core gameplay so obviously mind control and all that fancy futuristic stuff is out. Think about it, what's more exciting ? a knife fight in a phone booth style dogfight with a P51 Mustang or lock click boom at 50 miles away with an F14 Tomcat and Phoenix missiles? It's no wonder technology is somewhat sandbagged. Still though, gameplay aside, I find the technological progression in Elite far more believable than say Star Trek.
Fiction A criticism of Elite's timeline
- Thread starter MentalParadox
- Start date
InMemoriamSirocco
Banned
+1 for that - exactly how I think about the old Cobra. The AK of spaceships. Just like the Corellian YT-1300 Freighter, an ancient but still very popular design due to its upgradeable hull and modular interior (the Millenium Falcon).
Well, they may have Machine/Mind Interfaces, but YOU don't... thus it would be hard to pilot a virtual ship using MMI that does not exist. You would have to emulate the game MMI with something that really existed so you could fly it... like a joystick.
So why have a layer of immersion breaking conversion from Real Joystick to Simulated MMI... just cut out the middle man and have the ship piloted by an in game joystick.
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I didn't make an argument and neither did you. Your point was your view. You didn't give an indication you wanted to discuss anything.
Logic is a subjectively rationalised system which anyone can use to 'prove' a point. You're welcome to state things should be more advanced in AD 3300 and give your reasons. Neither of us can know, so there's not a lot of point in saying 'it should be like this' or 'it should be like that'. You don't like it, okay. I do. Boils down to that really doesn't it?
Perhaps we should make a wager? £1 says it'll all be exactly like Elite? You can come round my house and collect in AD 3300 if you like?
Oh and its Nimitz class aircraft carrier, not 'Mimitz'
Prior to the enlightenment tech and social structures in europe remained static-ish for near a thousand years. Roads and bridges in Britain built by the romans were only bettered once the industrial revolution got underway.
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It is not inconceivable that tec could stay static for a very long time. Although computing and electronics have changed rapidly over the last 50 years many other technologies haven't, 100 year old pistols are still just as deadly (M1911). Arguably, aerospace is the most relevant to ED. Here change is also slow, aircraft designed and built in the 1920's are still built and flown, military aircraft from the 50's are still in service and performance records are still held by aircraft deigned in the 60's. The real area of improvement has been electronics not air frames.
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It is not inconceivable that tec could stay static for a very long time. Although computing and electronics have changed rapidly over the last 50 years many other technologies haven't, 100 year old pistols are still just as deadly (M1911). Arguably, aerospace is the most relevant to ED. Here change is also slow, aircraft designed and built in the 1920's are still built and flown, military aircraft from the 50's are still in service and performance records are still held by aircraft deigned in the 60's. The real area of improvement has been electronics not air frames.
Bear in mind that a Boeing 747 or in fact any aircraft no matter how advanced still are only upgrades to the wright flier, they have wings, a fuselage and require some sort of thrust. Same analogy for the model T Ford, our cars today still require wheels and an engine.
The point is, it's a game (a very good one at that) it's meant to be enjoyed via interaction, or would you rather go to the toilet and take a dump while recalling the post you made and pretend to control your ship using the power of your mind alone ?
The point is, it's a game (a very good one at that) it's meant to be enjoyed via interaction, or would you rather go to the toilet and take a dump while recalling the post you made and pretend to control your ship using the power of your mind alone ?
Funny you should mention the AK...3 weeks ago they announced this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30302261
In theory, the OP arguments are flawed.
You shouldn't be asking yourself why you're not flying a new ship...you should be asking why you're not sat on earth, on your sofa, with a headset on remotely controlling your ship.
They do this now with the Predator and other remotely controlled military helicopters and planes.
I think if you look at anything close enough you will see flaws...but does it really affect the game play?
The lore could go on about little green gnomes and pots of gold for all I care...it has no bearing on how I play ED.
EDIT: MentalParadox...your invention dates are all wrong. If you're going to be picky at least get your facts right
EDIT2: Also...there is the possibility that the human race had a purple patch on new technology.
Using your example:
1000's of years ago: we sailed the seas on wooden ships, relying entirely on the wind and the tides.
300 years ago: we sailed the seas on wooden ships, relying entirely on the wind and the tides.
What? No new transport method for thousands of years? Boats didn't really change much? Shock horror.
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I touch on this in my story in Tales From The Frontier and have one of the main characters remotely in command of one ship while flying another - Frontier were happy to approve this use of technology in the fiction, but I think we can all agree it would be a bit boring if we were all at home controlling our ships.... hold on, wait a minute
Well, that would require instantaneous and high bandwidth communications. Considering I can't get station prices even in system, I don't think it exists.
Gotta fly it in meatspace.
Gotta fly it in meatspace.
nats
Banned
An advanced society wouldnt have humans flying ships, they would be robots or drones exactly the way we have them exploring our system now. Humans are too fragile, too expensive, too large, too requirement heavy - and most importantly too unreliable!
As role players we can dream up any reason why it isnt like this in the game but the truth is very simple. The only reason for the way it is is because its a game, its for gameplay sake. Its to establish a relation to the earlier games in player minds. Thats it. No need to read into it any more than that.
As role players we can dream up any reason why it isnt like this in the game but the truth is very simple. The only reason for the way it is is because its a game, its for gameplay sake. Its to establish a relation to the earlier games in player minds. Thats it. No need to read into it any more than that.
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As a previous poster has pointed out, to fly drones you need a reliable high bandwidth signals. Such things work fine on earth within certain tolerances you can fly a drone over Afghanistan while sitting in California, however that's a tiny distance in the scale of the galaxy. If you consider space probes, there is no real time control because the distances involved. Every move of something like Curiosity is plotted a long time in advance. It takes minutes for a signal to reach it and minutes for a signal to return. Imagine trying to drive a car when you can only see what was there 10 minutes ago and it will take 10 minutes before any control movement (i.e. accelerator, brake or steering) takes effect. The only theoretical FTL communications we know of are quantum entanglements, but there is dispute about whether they can practically be used. AFAIK the lore allows them but they are very expensive and limited, so probably not up to allowing people to fly spaceships.
Autonomous craft are another kettle of fish, but the lore suggests problems with sentient AI (suggestions of a war between humanity and AIs) that such things are treated with great suspicion. As for humans being unreliable, that's a fair point but they are also adaptable and can react to unexpected events. So with robots you either have something so dumb that unscrupulous people could hack them for nefarious purposes or something smart and so scary and forbidden by all current in game powers.
It's just sort of a trope. Real space travel, space battles and whatever will be nothing like we have in games. I think Peter F. Hamilton's books Pandora's Star and Judas Unchained were a good idea of how quickly things would escalate. Their first batch of warships were the typical sci-fi pew pew lasers, but quickly by using science (a lot of it 'real' today in terms of energy conversation) they realised they were doing it wrong and the results were scary for me, scary for the characters and scary for the author. We're talking doomsday devices that destroy solar systems.
Pew pew? More PFFFft!
So I accept the trope as the fun it is. Consider Asimov's Foundation series which is some 75000 odd years in the future and is more like ED, or Dune which is further in the future I think (or maybe around the same time) and tech is more backward than now for a lot of things considering the Butlerian Jihad against tech. Or Planet of the Apes where those maniacs blew it up.
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Pew pew? More PFFFft!
So I accept the trope as the fun it is. Consider Asimov's Foundation series which is some 75000 odd years in the future and is more like ED, or Dune which is further in the future I think (or maybe around the same time) and tech is more backward than now for a lot of things considering the Butlerian Jihad against tech. Or Planet of the Apes where those maniacs blew it up.
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Pretty much my own thoughts. FTL comms are not standard fare in Elite, and haven't been in any of the games I've played in the series. According to some writing somewhere (I don't remember which), the communications between systems are assisted by ships that fly between and dock at various systems (ships travelling at Hyperspace velocities can beat any communication signals except e.g. low-bandwidth, high-energy emergency transmissions that summon system security forces). Anyone can look up information on any system in the galaxy, but the information could be hours out of date if the last ship to arrive with up-to-date information did so hours ago.
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In 19th century, many scientists thought everything in physics has been discovered already and science is going to end completely. This was a totally false statement, but it doesn't mean such an end CAN'T exist. Maybe in Elite universe the Theory of Everything was already polished and nothing is really to discover, and science went to stagnation. World has changed drastically last 200 years, but there is no reason to think that technology will expand everywhere and forever. It seems that in 3000's the boom is long gone and everything returned to normality. Galleys at 500AD and 1500AD were also pretty the same.
As for AI, I don't buy the story people don't build it because of distrust. There are thousands of different societies in galaxy and some of them would surely accept everything that other societies find disgusting. Maybe it was proved that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build sentient electronic brain, and any "organic computer" would be simply the brain's copy, so it is just easier to produce humans, using the same method as 100.000 years ago So, it's probably quite easy to build autonomous ships, but human pilots are so much CHEAPER that there is no reason to do it! Economy is the key here. And remember that with all these planets and space travel all resources are really, really cheap, and manufacturing is heavily automated, so, building a huge ship made of pure palladium with luxurious life-supporting systems can be cheaper and quicker than nursing a semi-sentient computer.
As for AI, I don't buy the story people don't build it because of distrust. There are thousands of different societies in galaxy and some of them would surely accept everything that other societies find disgusting. Maybe it was proved that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build sentient electronic brain, and any "organic computer" would be simply the brain's copy, so it is just easier to produce humans, using the same method as 100.000 years ago
So, it's probably quite easy to build autonomous ships, but human pilots are so much CHEAPER that there is no reason to do it! Economy is the key here. And remember that with all these planets and space travel all resources are really, really cheap, and manufacturing is heavily automated, so, building a huge ship made of pure palladium with luxurious life-supporting systems can be cheaper and quicker than nursing a semi-sentient computer.Science Fiction is the only genre of writing/filmmaking/etc that is actively ashamed of its own history.
The nature of the genre is that people seek to predict and look for real world futures in the extemporised science (pseudoscience) of each devised reality. H.G. Wells was hailed as a prophet for his use of artillery, Asimov for his laws of robotics, etc. But for each of these there are a dozen other stories with cannons firing spaceships (Verne), anti gravity flight (Wells again), Hypnotism after death (Poe), Warp drive (Star Trek), and countless more.
Criticising the pseudoscience of any science fiction text is easy because we aren't living in the reality described. If the science was absolutely accurate and possible, we would likely be living in the future we describe. We criticise based on our experience and learned knowledge, whether factual or assumed to be factual.
The key for any deviser of science fiction is to make the pseudoscience plausible and rationalised to the intended audience. Asimov as a physicist was the master of this, translating impossible theories into a rationalised conversation between characters.
If we choose to criticise Elite, you can list lots of things that are contrivances: - flight model, hyperspace, super cruise, terraforming techniques, speed bleed in a vacuum, landing in space stations, sound in space, etc.
The history and premise of the game is what it is based on the previous games established style and theme. Its rich and varied with lots of opportunities for stories and adventures for players and writers. It will not fundamentally alter. If a particular piece of rationalise doesn't work for you its much more useful to analyse what of that breaks you from your acceptance of the narrative around you.
The nature of the genre is that people seek to predict and look for real world futures in the extemporised science (pseudoscience) of each devised reality. H.G. Wells was hailed as a prophet for his use of artillery, Asimov for his laws of robotics, etc. But for each of these there are a dozen other stories with cannons firing spaceships (Verne), anti gravity flight (Wells again), Hypnotism after death (Poe), Warp drive (Star Trek), and countless more.
Criticising the pseudoscience of any science fiction text is easy because we aren't living in the reality described. If the science was absolutely accurate and possible, we would likely be living in the future we describe. We criticise based on our experience and learned knowledge, whether factual or assumed to be factual.
The key for any deviser of science fiction is to make the pseudoscience plausible and rationalised to the intended audience. Asimov as a physicist was the master of this, translating impossible theories into a rationalised conversation between characters.
If we choose to criticise Elite, you can list lots of things that are contrivances: - flight model, hyperspace, super cruise, terraforming techniques, speed bleed in a vacuum, landing in space stations, sound in space, etc.
The history and premise of the game is what it is based on the previous games established style and theme. Its rich and varied with lots of opportunities for stories and adventures for players and writers. It will not fundamentally alter. If a particular piece of rationalise doesn't work for you its much more useful to analyse what of that breaks you from your acceptance of the narrative around you.
Yeah all future settings for games/books/movies/tv can easily be criticized as current tech progresses. Look at the changes on the bridge of the Enterprise from the original 1960s Star Trek and the current reboot in the previous two Star Trek movies. In Firefly, Star Trek, and Star Wars, old ships are still in use. In Star Trek Online it's 2409 and ships designed in the mid 22nd century are still in use although they also have more advanced ships. Currently in the real world, NASA is experimenting with warp bubbles, private companies are designing ways to mine asteroids (Planetary Resources), we have the tech to terraform Mars in a 100 year time frame, and permanent settlements on the moon and Mars are in the planning phases for implementation within the next 20 years (or in Mars One's case 2024). I find it quite likely that once exploitation and colonization beyond Earth accelerates we could very well be drawn into a corporate war, civil war, religious war, or be devastated by some alien bacteria or virus. It is also quite likely AI development or cloning gets out of control, we humans love to push every envelope and it doesn't always turn out for the best and tech may change but humans do not (unless you believe in the idealised version of Earth ala Star Trek but even they have the Maquis...). In short, anything can happen between now and 3300!
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One of the recent novels - Out of the Darkness - actually contained a preface that has some relevance for Elite Dangerous, too. What I got out of it is that interstellar travel was slow even with jump drives, and pilots had to use "stardreamer" capsules (a reference to the time lapse feature in previous Elite games) to place themselves in hibernation. That's how it worked for hundreds of years, and the various ships we see in the game are old because they were so successful and robust, leading to those names building up a reputation the corporations likely were unwilling to risk with newer products when they didn't offer much improvement. Instead, successful designs would see their lifetimes prolonged by newer series building on top of that reputation, such as with the Cobra Mark III or the newest iteration of the Viper.
Also, we've got to remember that those ships are, in effect, mostly just hulls (and thus just an exercise in geometry), with their interiors receiving a lot more upgrades and updates over the decades than the outsides. Another novel - Wanted - features the Fer de Lance, which is said to be a design over a hundred years old, but still called "the best heavy interceptor ever built" by pilots. However, as the FdL's owner in the novel points out, her ship has been completely refurbished from the inside, and modernised to state of the art specs.
Anyways, the setting most recently saw a huge technological breakthrough with the commercial release of the Frameshift Drive, which allows ships to create an energy density field of negative mass and travel via spatial contraction at speeds far greater than that of light. Suddenly, entire systems could be crossed in mere minutes when it took days or weeks before! And the kicker is, the FSD works in hyperspace as well, cutting down jumps between systems to mere seconds. This is the start of Elite Dangerous: where a whole new generation of pilots is suddenly faced with the ability to travel across the galaxy, a prospect that was considered unthinkable for their forefathers who had "only" normal hyperdrives. Thus, as David Braben once mentioned in an interview, we now have an entirely new "gold rush" where humanity pushes outward, far beyond the frontiers settled during the previous "gold rushes" (first sublight deep space exploration, first hyperdrive invented, ...).
I'm sure other scientific advancements were made as well, but mostly on the fields of optimisation and miniaturisation rather than conjuring breakthroughs out of thin air. This is just part interpretation, part personal preference, however, as I feel that a technologically stagnant setting is "grittier" than one where thousands of worlds all invent new tech every week. We should also keep in mind how the two greatest power blocks in human colonised space - the Terran Federation and the Empire of Achenar - are not exactly focused on constant scientific advancement. The Federation's culture revolves around media and entertainment, keeping the populace happy and docile, whereas the Empire consists of people who either participate in a galactic contest of "who is the most decadent", or are serving them as slaves.
Considering how, in mankind's history, scientific advancement seems mostly driven not by enlightenment but rather military need, perhaps it just took the Cold War between the Federation and the Empire or the Thargoid War to promote interest in funding R&D .. after several centuries of humanity just d**ing around in space believing they were all alone. Ironically, that's the only reason we actually stood a chance against the Thargoids at all, who have travelled through space far longer than mankind - but, very much like ancient China, at some point just stopped advancing and stagnated, allowing the human newcomers to catch up.
Speaking of China, perhaps this helps understand how a culture can just "stop" advancing, and that the setting in Elite is thus quite possible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...China#Scientific_and_technological_stagnation
Also, we've got to remember that those ships are, in effect, mostly just hulls (and thus just an exercise in geometry), with their interiors receiving a lot more upgrades and updates over the decades than the outsides. Another novel - Wanted - features the Fer de Lance, which is said to be a design over a hundred years old, but still called "the best heavy interceptor ever built" by pilots. However, as the FdL's owner in the novel points out, her ship has been completely refurbished from the inside, and modernised to state of the art specs.
Anyways, the setting most recently saw a huge technological breakthrough with the commercial release of the Frameshift Drive, which allows ships to create an energy density field of negative mass and travel via spatial contraction at speeds far greater than that of light. Suddenly, entire systems could be crossed in mere minutes when it took days or weeks before! And the kicker is, the FSD works in hyperspace as well, cutting down jumps between systems to mere seconds. This is the start of Elite Dangerous: where a whole new generation of pilots is suddenly faced with the ability to travel across the galaxy, a prospect that was considered unthinkable for their forefathers who had "only" normal hyperdrives. Thus, as David Braben once mentioned in an interview, we now have an entirely new "gold rush" where humanity pushes outward, far beyond the frontiers settled during the previous "gold rushes" (first sublight deep space exploration, first hyperdrive invented, ...).
I'm sure other scientific advancements were made as well, but mostly on the fields of optimisation and miniaturisation rather than conjuring breakthroughs out of thin air. This is just part interpretation, part personal preference, however, as I feel that a technologically stagnant setting is "grittier" than one where thousands of worlds all invent new tech every week. We should also keep in mind how the two greatest power blocks in human colonised space - the Terran Federation and the Empire of Achenar - are not exactly focused on constant scientific advancement. The Federation's culture revolves around media and entertainment, keeping the populace happy and docile, whereas the Empire consists of people who either participate in a galactic contest of "who is the most decadent", or are serving them as slaves.
Considering how, in mankind's history, scientific advancement seems mostly driven not by enlightenment but rather military need, perhaps it just took the Cold War between the Federation and the Empire or the Thargoid War to promote interest in funding R&D .. after several centuries of humanity just d**ing around in space believing they were all alone. Ironically, that's the only reason we actually stood a chance against the Thargoids at all, who have travelled through space far longer than mankind - but, very much like ancient China, at some point just stopped advancing and stagnated, allowing the human newcomers to catch up.
Speaking of China, perhaps this helps understand how a culture can just "stop" advancing, and that the setting in Elite is thus quite possible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...China#Scientific_and_technological_stagnation
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I don't think the future of space exploration is unmanned probes in any case (provided a safe warp drive like technology can be created of course). Human nature is about discovering the unknown but also reaching out and touching it. Human evolution and progress would be greatly held back if space exploration were limited to unmanned missions. Regardless of the reasons touted for sending humans to mars etc the real reason is that it doesn't feel real to us as a species unless we have been there and seen it. The holiday industry for example would be a poor business if we didn't want to 'see' the world. I can browse the net and watch TV shows to my hearts content about the amazon rain forests or coral reef but until I go and see it and experience the majesty in person then it'll only ever be a picture stuck under my sun visor!
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in 1000BC, people were fighting each other with spears / swords, shields and bows......2500yrs later they were still doing it!, Technology moved very slowly until a few key periods of enlightenment took place, and indeed, didn't jump noticeably until two major wars in close succession were fought in the 20th century. (necessity is the mother of invention). However, we have not moved 'that' much forward since.
Computers / phones and jet aircraft all present in WW2 and still used today albeit in a more refined form. We wont move significantly again until Nano technology becomes better known and widespread.
It would be easy to view the Elite universe as following on from a period of enlightenment, that has now stalled until another key breakthrough is found.
Computers / phones and jet aircraft all present in WW2 and still used today albeit in a more refined form. We wont move significantly again until Nano technology becomes better known and widespread.
It would be easy to view the Elite universe as following on from a period of enlightenment, that has now stalled until another key breakthrough is found.