Deconstructing boredom in ED (or why ED is too easy)
- Thread starter SentineI
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I agree that the "dangerous" part is a bit lacking right now, but like Medwyn I don't think E
should be about 'increase your ship'. As it is now, every single ship in the game is actually good for at least a couple of purposes. The ships are nicely balanced and should remain so. The Sidey is a very nice cheap ship which, with a couple of upgrades, can be transformed in something either useful or even deadly.
Personally I have a hauler for mining (and small scale trading), an adder for exploration and an eagle to fight. I just got rid of the starting sidewinder by accident. I tried a viper once (even have skins for it) but that was not the ship for me. At some point I'll probably buy something bigger because I'm curious and it might get handy for some things but right now I am more than happy with my mini fleet of mini ships, as its a perfectly viable option and I don't see why that should be changed.
Also : from what I heard of Lakon owners ship maintenance and repairs are quite hefty for the bigger ships. It's appropriately low for smaller ships, which is partly why staying with small vessels is a viable alternative.
As for the Iron Man mode : nobody is stopping you to clear your save whenever you die. I think the penalty right now is okay, considering you and I are actually paying LESS insurance than someone who was not in beta. Maybe you can ask Frontier to reset your insurance costs to that which non-bakers have, as this should increase the death penalty a bit for you too (I mean this seriously by the way).
should be about 'increase your ship'. As it is now, every single ship in the game is actually good for at least a couple of purposes. The ships are nicely balanced and should remain so. The Sidey is a very nice cheap ship which, with a couple of upgrades, can be transformed in something either useful or even deadly. Personally I have a hauler for mining (and small scale trading), an adder for exploration and an eagle to fight. I just got rid of the starting sidewinder by accident. I tried a viper once (even have skins for it) but that was not the ship for me. At some point I'll probably buy something bigger because I'm curious and it might get handy for some things but right now I am more than happy with my mini fleet of mini ships, as its a perfectly viable option and I don't see why that should be changed.
Also : from what I heard of Lakon owners ship maintenance and repairs are quite hefty for the bigger ships. It's appropriately low for smaller ships, which is partly why staying with small vessels is a viable alternative.
As for the Iron Man mode : nobody is stopping you to clear your save whenever you die. I think the penalty right now is okay, considering you and I are actually paying LESS insurance than someone who was not in beta. Maybe you can ask Frontier to reset your insurance costs to that which non-bakers have, as this should increase the death penalty a bit for you too (I mean this seriously by the way).
The game is far too easy. Right now, the main challenge is in the first few hours, as the game isn't very intuative, and then it's easy. It has been suggested before that a way to fix this is to have dangerous sectors be more dangerous, but safe sectors remain easy. I currently have a bounty on my head, but the only thing to collect it is going to be a human. There's no way the police in any sector of the game will hurt me in any way. They won't even hit me unless I let them. The fact that most people's deaths seem to be at stations (forgetting permission, ramming things in the letterbox, accidently hitting the boost button... etc) is telling IMO.
I'd agree with all of the original points. Even death as a trader isn't so bad if you can face the rebuy and aren't doing something that should be risky. Carrying a cargo hold full of the most expensive goods in the game should be risky, and there should be a proft margin vs risk trade off. There is not.
They're going to have to ramp the difficulty slowly though, which is a shame. If they suddenly made the game at least moderately challenging there would be a storm of complaints.
I'd agree with all of the original points. Even death as a trader isn't so bad if you can face the rebuy and aren't doing something that should be risky. Carrying a cargo hold full of the most expensive goods in the game should be risky, and there should be a proft margin vs risk trade off. There is not.
They're going to have to ramp the difficulty slowly though, which is a shame. If they suddenly made the game at least moderately challenging there would be a storm of complaints.
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Oh, they most assuredly can.
All the pieces are in place already.
1. Make "Security: LOW" areas far more dangerous than "Security: HIGH" areas.
2. Bring "SECURITY LEVEL" Front And Centre as we navigate the Elite Galaxy
I agree that the game does not feel all that 'Dangerous' at the moment (who's more scared of bugs than the actual AI? I know I am. ) Feudal or Anarchy systems should be scary - so I agree with points 1 and 2. I don't necessarily agree that the Sidewinder is too good as a starting ship, but other low class start options would be nice in game (i.e. apart from the pre-order Freagle), and I do agree that Boost seems to be a 'get out of jail free' card in almost every encounter. 4 is a definite (and according to the manual escape pods 'micro-jump' to stations, which kinda makes a mockery of super-cruise being present in the game doesn't it? Why cant bigger ships micro-jump then? ). As to 5, never flown a big ship in Gamma or Release, so I can't comment there. Even in a Cobra wear and tear does seem to cost a fair amount though.
) Feudal or Anarchy systems should be scary - so I agree with points 1 and 2. I don't necessarily agree that the Sidewinder is too good as a starting ship, but other low class start options would be nice in game (i.e. apart from the pre-order Freagle), and I do agree that Boost seems to be a 'get out of jail free' card in almost every encounter. 4 is a definite (and according to the manual escape pods 'micro-jump' to stations, which kinda makes a mockery of super-cruise being present in the game doesn't it? Why cant bigger ships micro-jump then? ). As to 5, never flown a big ship in Gamma or Release, so I can't comment there. Even in a Cobra wear and tear does seem to cost a fair amount though.Yes it surely need character, it has plenty if you think about it, but it lacks something i cant but finger on!
+1 Op. +1 indeed! I started playing in the premium beta and remember dying at least five times to the Crimson Triumph ( a Sidewinder) - that level of skill level should be associated with Competent. Expert and Master need to mean some serious skills. Picking on an Elite pilot regardless of ship type needs to be bloody hard - and the Elite Anacondas needs to be flying gods of death. Also they should implement "enemy Flights" that coordinate to take a pilot down.
Anarchy systems should have groups of Flights (Squadrons) and Wings (groups of Squadrons) around high priority targets.
Anarchy systems should have groups of Flights (Squadrons) and Wings (groups of Squadrons) around high priority targets.
I'm replying to my first post, with further thoughts on what I said:
If there were dangerous star systems, you can go to one, die horribly at the hands of high-level pirates, and from that learn you shouldn't go to such places again (at least not without getting a better ship & more practice).
This is also why Boosting away from enemies should be much harder (or impossible). It means you may die from the encounter, but you'll learn from it without loosing too much. And rather than just boosting away, you will have had an exciting battle (even if you eventually died).
I think the only reason ED has been made too easy is that it dying is very harsh on traders (they can loose almost their entire net wealth). Even if a trader has enough cash reserves to pay their ship insurance, they can still end-up with no cash to their name (apart from their ship). That's too harsh (if ED wasn't too easy). But Frontier already have a planned solution, they just haven't implemented it yet: Optional cargo insurance. It will cost of course, but given how much money traders can make, it should be fine. And that would allow ED's difficulty to be increased across the board.
I should also add that dying very early on in the game, and loosing everything, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because you haven't played very long, and have a free Sidewinder, you don't have much to loose, so loosing it all doesn't matter much. So there is no need to imbalance the whole game for the sake of a newbie's first first hours venturing to other star systems. So it's no problem if they can't afford cargo insurance. i.e. Cargo insurance shouldn't be so cheap it's effectively free. Frontier have already made it really easy for beginners to make big profits early on, because stuff costing a few hundred credits can net you 50% or 100% profit, where-as later (with more expensive commodities) on you can only make maybe 10% profit (I forget the exact figure).
In many ways this is a GOOD thing, because it means you can fail (die) & learn from it without being unduly punished. It also means that ED can be made less easy, without people giving-up in frustration, because they only get a small penalty.
If there were dangerous star systems, you can go to one, die horribly at the hands of high-level pirates, and from that learn you shouldn't go to such places again (at least not without getting a better ship & more practice).
This is also why Boosting away from enemies should be much harder (or impossible). It means you may die from the encounter, but you'll learn from it without loosing too much. And rather than just boosting away, you will have had an exciting battle (even if you eventually died).
I think the only reason ED has been made too easy is that it dying is very harsh on traders (they can loose almost their entire net wealth). Even if a trader has enough cash reserves to pay their ship insurance, they can still end-up with no cash to their name (apart from their ship). That's too harsh (if ED wasn't too easy). But Frontier already have a planned solution, they just haven't implemented it yet: Optional cargo insurance. It will cost of course, but given how much money traders can make, it should be fine. And that would allow ED's difficulty to be increased across the board.
I should also add that dying very early on in the game, and loosing everything, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because you haven't played very long, and have a free Sidewinder, you don't have much to loose, so loosing it all doesn't matter much. So there is no need to imbalance the whole game for the sake of a newbie's first first hours venturing to other star systems. So it's no problem if they can't afford cargo insurance. i.e. Cargo insurance shouldn't be so cheap it's effectively free. Frontier have already made it really easy for beginners to make big profits early on, because stuff costing a few hundred credits can net you 50% or 100% profit, where-as later (with more expensive commodities) on you can only make maybe 10% profit (I forget the exact figure).
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Not a probem unique to ED, just ask any WoW player "kill x of y" / "collect ears from foo" (amazing how many of them are earless) / "while killing X free Z from cages" and so on. Not forgetting the "poop" quests.
The core reason I do get bored is the silence. The issue with no comms is this:
- when I play a theme park mmo I can ignore chat for weeks as I am busy grinding content and only really chat for trading or dungeons. So I am occupied by the content
- when I play a sandbox game I need comms more than ever. Trade, exploration, craft and mostly questions on how to play the game. Imagine starting EVE or FALLEN EARTH if you couldn't ask people questions etc. Most of those games have a starter guild with several hundred players who want to help. In addition it's the RP and culture that is generated around these games which keep people coming back. Let's face it, EVE really doesn't have that much exciting Pve content and it's all point and click but I played for 4 years.
in Elite Dangerous I am constantly leaving the game to find answers on how to play or what means what.. The long travel between stars and hours exploring and scanning systems is deathly quiet. The game requires players actions to make a difference. I want to be able to join an alliance chat and drum up support to run missions in a system to cause a civil war or whatever. Right. Is it's a solo decision and you really have no idea if you are making a difference at all. In 2 months of playing pre/post launch, I have come across 5 people and that was due to me actively visiting systems.
without mass pve content to run through games like Elite must have open comms channels or they will turn players off.
- when I play a theme park mmo I can ignore chat for weeks as I am busy grinding content and only really chat for trading or dungeons. So I am occupied by the content
- when I play a sandbox game I need comms more than ever. Trade, exploration, craft and mostly questions on how to play the game. Imagine starting EVE or FALLEN EARTH if you couldn't ask people questions etc. Most of those games have a starter guild with several hundred players who want to help. In addition it's the RP and culture that is generated around these games which keep people coming back. Let's face it, EVE really doesn't have that much exciting Pve content and it's all point and click but I played for 4 years.
in Elite Dangerous I am constantly leaving the game to find answers on how to play or what means what.. The long travel between stars and hours exploring and scanning systems is deathly quiet. The game requires players actions to make a difference. I want to be able to join an alliance chat and drum up support to run missions in a system to cause a civil war or whatever. Right. Is it's a solo decision and you really have no idea if you are making a difference at all. In 2 months of playing pre/post launch, I have come across 5 people and that was due to me actively visiting systems.
without mass pve content to run through games like Elite must have open comms channels or they will turn players off.
in regard to Boost : I fly a mining hauler without shields nor battle weapons to maximize the cargo. Boosting is the *only* way I have to escape, and even then, IF I can escape, my hull will be wrecked. "nerfing" boost will not increase "learning", it will just make some professions worthless. When I'm bounty hunting I try to make sure I have always enough energy on the engines to recover my boost capacity fast enough, in case my target thinks it can outrun me.
Boost, as it is now, is very nicely implemented.
Boost, as it is now, is very nicely implemented.
IMO people think that they want this, but they don't. When demon souls came out people went ape about it for the difficulty, and despite it being incredibly frustrating people kept coming back for more (including me), now its one of the most popular series in dark souls. the key is to make it very difficult but make sure players can make tangible progress, then they will continue to throw themselves against it and love every frustrating minute of it.
You can't make it pointlessly difficult that doesn't serve any purpose, like I'm not sure an anaconda would interdict a sidewinder to take his 3 tea hes carrying for a mission, but he might to a type 7 carrying 240 palladium.
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Except, in the current mechanics, he could only pick up about 30 before they self destructed. The repair bill after the interdiction would also be rather large, and he could make a lot more just trading it.
You're point is right though. NPC massive ships shouldn't care about the tiny ships flitting about, so that's one way of making the difficulty smoother. An NPC cobra would be potentially very dangerous to your sidewinder, but nothing bigger would bother with you.
Was that not Lotro , "Go collect goat/reindeer/hog poop and bring it back.. " I caused som stir in forums then
Cheers Cmdr's
I agree there should be more higher rated and harder NPCs and in some systems.
Other than that its not the difficulty level that needs adjusting.
Don't confuse difficultly level with entertainment level.
Most games become easy after awhile once you learn all the "ins and outs".
Games can remain entertaining long after the difficulty has been overcome.
The Grind is there because there is not enough content.
Not enough things to do.
Very little multi player activity beside the odd pirate or two and No global or system chat.
Other than that its not the difficulty level that needs adjusting.
Don't confuse difficultly level with entertainment level.
Most games become easy after awhile once you learn all the "ins and outs".
Games can remain entertaining long after the difficulty has been overcome.
The Grind is there because there is not enough content.
Not enough things to do.
Very little multi player activity beside the odd pirate or two and No global or system chat.
Whilst there are many salient points made in all of the previous postings, I for one am not overly unhappy with the initial release. I do however think the timing of the launch of ED was a very poor decision. IMO whilst I appreciate FD wanted to deliver on its promise to deliver the game by Xmas, generating additional revenue stream(s), as I am sure many a recipient would have got the game as a Christmas gift, the lack of support both technical and game play when the UK has effectively closed down so we can all go by new sofas from DFS etc is an abomination. I myself have found myself on numerous server errors and 'drop outs' !
The game will not benefit from any or all future development all the time 'server issues' are constant thorn in the sides of players - this could be the biggest of blunders that FD could have made, seriously damaging the reputation of both Frontier and ED as the masterpiece Im sure it will one day become !
My understanding is that FD are quite in bed with Amazon, and that the servers are supplied by them ... Where is the technical support from them ? Oh I forgot... its xmas.....
My last venture into this genre was X:Rebirth and after countless updates etc, it was still absolute poo and was a waste of £30!!! I am sure ED will not be, but lets get the basics sorted first, many backers, beta & gamma testers will already be way ahead of the average bod like me, learning the hard way and reliant on the posts of the more expert to educate etc.... The vast majority of the games potential audience will be happy enough in the main with what they already have.
I do appreciate the more experienced among you will be crying out for harder challenges DLCs and the like, but right now just providing a reliable service would be a start. I am convinced the developers will be doing serious overtime come Monday and fixes etc will come thick and fast, tho I fear much damage has already been done.... The upper echelons need to have some serious convos with Amazon too...
In summary FD should have waited until after Xmas to release or should have made far greater provision for support over the yuletide, my feeling is that 'money' was the primary reason for the pre Xmas release, however it could well be a decision Mr Braben may come to regret !!
The game will not benefit from any or all future development all the time 'server issues' are constant thorn in the sides of players - this could be the biggest of blunders that FD could have made, seriously damaging the reputation of both Frontier and ED as the masterpiece Im sure it will one day become !
My understanding is that FD are quite in bed with Amazon, and that the servers are supplied by them ... Where is the technical support from them ? Oh I forgot... its xmas.....
My last venture into this genre was X:Rebirth and after countless updates etc, it was still absolute poo and was a waste of £30!!! I am sure ED will not be, but lets get the basics sorted first, many backers, beta & gamma testers will already be way ahead of the average bod like me, learning the hard way and reliant on the posts of the more expert to educate etc.... The vast majority of the games potential audience will be happy enough in the main with what they already have.
I do appreciate the more experienced among you will be crying out for harder challenges DLCs and the like, but right now just providing a reliable service would be a start. I am convinced the developers will be doing serious overtime come Monday and fixes etc will come thick and fast, tho I fear much damage has already been done.... The upper echelons need to have some serious convos with Amazon too...
In summary FD should have waited until after Xmas to release or should have made far greater provision for support over the yuletide, my feeling is that 'money' was the primary reason for the pre Xmas release, however it could well be a decision Mr Braben may come to regret !!
I actually think the rapid early progression curve of the game might hurt it, as well. When you get right down to it, it doesn't take very long for a determined player (even a complete post-launch buyer like me,) to claw one's way up to an Eagle, a Viper, then a Cobra, etc, with this rapid, consistent feel of moving from one ship to another bigger, badder ship. After the Cobra, the next step up is only really applicable if you're into trading, with the T6, (and I can't help but wonder how many people decided to try trading in part because it was the next ship up,) and then, over five million credits later, the Asp. Over ten million credits later, the T7, the Clipper another five or so after that... don't even get me started on the Python or Anaconda.
What begins as a rapid ascent in terms of ship improvement suddenly becomes more and more of a slog, with the sense of material progression hitting a bit of a brick wall. Now, one can choose to upgrade one's existing ship, of course, but the improvements there are subtler, and I only really appreciated the differences when I rebought a stock Viper and skipped it up to B-grade gear. When I had incrementally been going E-D-C-B, I'd barely noticed the improvement. If the sense of growth had been hampered a little from the get-go (maybe widening the gap between the Eagle and Viper, and then between the Viper and Cobra,) there wouldn't be the feeling of blasting through your obstacles, only to trip and faceplant halfway through. I think that part of the reason there've been outcries of 'Make The Endgame Ships Cheaper!' is that some players got conditioned to expect rapid gratification, only to get a cold splash of water when they hit the inevitable wall. Having increased the gap from the start, and perhaps filled the interim with other forms of material progression- other things to spend your credits on, basically- could have helped with that. Hopefully whenever ship interiors become a thing, it'll open up a new avenue of internal customization.
Agree with the Sidewinder, it strikes me more as an ideal 'Run Away!' ship; with nerfed tactical abilities, I do think it should receive a sizable speed boost. Having a super vulnerable ship raises the stakes, but having a super vulnerable ship that can't even get away from half the pirates replaces challenge, ("Can I get clear before my hull explodes?!") with frustration, ("Okay, hit the boost and... that Viper is still closing the distance. And here comes the missiles, oh look, the vacuum of SPACE.") Spend the early game trading, exploring, taking on other Sidewinders, but otherwise avoiding those big, bad ships that can obliterate you very quickly... build a healthy appreciation for when such a ship is eventually yours.
With regards to an Iron Man mode, it might be best if they can address the repetitive mission structure and such first before introducing such a mode, to make it a little more appealing and increase how widely it's adopted. In my case, at least, more than a little of my current progress on the whole ship-owning front was from slogging the same back and forth trade route at least eighty or ninety times, (damnit, I WANT A CLIPPER!) and while the concept of permanent death normally interests me in terms of that extra edge, the prospect of slogging back through all that over again is just... not even remotely worth it. @_@ Heck, I keep almost obsessive care to make sure I never go under my rebuy cost.
What begins as a rapid ascent in terms of ship improvement suddenly becomes more and more of a slog, with the sense of material progression hitting a bit of a brick wall. Now, one can choose to upgrade one's existing ship, of course, but the improvements there are subtler, and I only really appreciated the differences when I rebought a stock Viper and skipped it up to B-grade gear. When I had incrementally been going E-D-C-B, I'd barely noticed the improvement. If the sense of growth had been hampered a little from the get-go (maybe widening the gap between the Eagle and Viper, and then between the Viper and Cobra,) there wouldn't be the feeling of blasting through your obstacles, only to trip and faceplant halfway through. I think that part of the reason there've been outcries of 'Make The Endgame Ships Cheaper!' is that some players got conditioned to expect rapid gratification, only to get a cold splash of water when they hit the inevitable wall. Having increased the gap from the start, and perhaps filled the interim with other forms of material progression- other things to spend your credits on, basically- could have helped with that. Hopefully whenever ship interiors become a thing, it'll open up a new avenue of internal customization.
Agree with the Sidewinder, it strikes me more as an ideal 'Run Away!' ship; with nerfed tactical abilities, I do think it should receive a sizable speed boost. Having a super vulnerable ship raises the stakes, but having a super vulnerable ship that can't even get away from half the pirates replaces challenge, ("Can I get clear before my hull explodes?!") with frustration, ("Okay, hit the boost and... that Viper is still closing the distance. And here comes the missiles, oh look, the vacuum of SPACE.") Spend the early game trading, exploring, taking on other Sidewinders, but otherwise avoiding those big, bad ships that can obliterate you very quickly... build a healthy appreciation for when such a ship is eventually yours.
With regards to an Iron Man mode, it might be best if they can address the repetitive mission structure and such first before introducing such a mode, to make it a little more appealing and increase how widely it's adopted. In my case, at least, more than a little of my current progress on the whole ship-owning front was from slogging the same back and forth trade route at least eighty or ninety times, (damnit, I WANT A CLIPPER!) and while the concept of permanent death normally interests me in terms of that extra edge, the prospect of slogging back through all that over again is just... not even remotely worth it. @_@ Heck, I keep almost obsessive care to make sure I never go under my rebuy cost.
Not sure I agree with all the points, they make the game too hard for a newbie
However i do like the idea of bringing system security levels to the front and making the NPC populations within the more hostile systems that much nastier, to the point that if you're trading you really only want to be passing through that system and not hanging about for very long at all
However, I think the key to giving the more experienced players something to get their teeth into are missions, there needs to be some seriously hard but rewarding missions to take on, something a newbie could have a crack at but likely fail in completing due to inexperience and/or ship performance. I know lots of you consider the ship AI rubbish, but if there were conflicts with just you and your wingmen pitted against a convey of elite ships of various shapes and sizes I am sure that would prove a little more difficult.
For all I know there are a multitude of missions already in place that are harder that I've yet to see or that are planned out for the future to give you more experienced / bored players something to aim for rather than grind / big ship upgrades...
However i do like the idea of bringing system security levels to the front and making the NPC populations within the more hostile systems that much nastier, to the point that if you're trading you really only want to be passing through that system and not hanging about for very long at all
However, I think the key to giving the more experienced players something to get their teeth into are missions, there needs to be some seriously hard but rewarding missions to take on, something a newbie could have a crack at but likely fail in completing due to inexperience and/or ship performance. I know lots of you consider the ship AI rubbish, but if there were conflicts with just you and your wingmen pitted against a convey of elite ships of various shapes and sizes I am sure that would prove a little more difficult.
For all I know there are a multitude of missions already in place that are harder that I've yet to see or that are planned out for the future to give you more experienced / bored players something to aim for rather than grind / big ship upgrades...
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