The EULA and Data Farming

[ggpwnkthx]

Don't get me wrong you must be a clever chap to put a program together like this. You're also quite right, it's just the same as big groups of people sharing information with each other.

Still gives those using these types of things an advantage over everyone else playing the game as it was meant to be played.

If FD wanted me to be able to see all the trade prices of everyone that's ever been to any station since the game came online... Wouldn't they have added that feature to the game?

Then you get normal players, like me, that don't use these 3rd party trading tools, that simply cant find decent trade route anywhere, ever. Why? Because those that use these types of tools trade them into extinction.

Your program might help you, and your friends that use them, but, at the same time, they make the game much more difficult for everyone else that doesn't use them.

I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that it disrupts the game play. If anything, it invigorates it.

What FD wants, and what you want, are arguably different things indeed. There's a deep philosophical rabbit hole we could run through for ages just on that very subject. Just because it hasn't been produced yet doesn't imply its not wanted. The official stance, at current, is that an API is a good idea. That being said, it is something they want us to experience, but do not have the time to invest in just yet.

 

[Slopey]

they make the game much more difficult for everyone else that doesn't use them.

Define exactly how people using tools or sharing data make the game more difficult for other players, because in my experience (and large vault of data), it doesn't matter one iota.

- Markets can't be stripped effectively to prevent other people buying goods unless the supply is so low to be nonexistent.
- The markets until a few weeks ago were screwed, by over trading AIs - not by players, which FD has subsequently resolved - so any problems you were having before weren't likely caused by players.
- Markets can't be blockaded (as you can just play in Solo mode and bypass others), so that avenue is non-existent
- The markets tend to flat and have done since Alpha - price variation is minimal in most places, but without a 3rd party tool that'd be impossible to discover.

So - can you give me a single proven tangible example of how your game has been directly affected by people who are sharing data?

Then you get normal players, like me, that don't use these 3rd party trading tools, that simply cant find decent trade route anywhere, ever. Why? Because those that use these types of tools trade them into extinction.

No - it's not because the rug is being pulled out from under you by sharing players. It's because there's too little variation in market prices across the board, making profitable runs very difficult to find if you don't share data.

Sharing data isn't the cause of these issues, the economy in game is. My BPC tool was offline for 3 days in Beta while I had some database issues, and during that time, it was still lauded as the root of all evil, destroying trade routes left right and centre, when it wasn't even working!

The problem is the economy model, not people sharing data - it has virtually no impact given the player density across the universe (there's a function to tell you where people are (the top 20 systems) in the BPC which I'll wager money is not where you are). 3rd party tool users are NOT causing the economy to implode - it does it itself.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

barring your incorrect interpretation of 3e, such a Eula clause would be void and unenforceable.

Probably so, which begs the question why it is there at all.

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Define exactly how people using tools or sharing data make the game more difficult for other players, because in my experience (and large vault of data), it doesn't matter one iota.

- Markets can't be stripped effectively to prevent other people buying goods unless the supply is so low to be nonexistent.
- The markets until a few weeks ago were screwed, by over trading AIs - not by players, which FD has subsequently resolved - so any problems you were having before weren't likely caused by players.
- Markets can't be blockaded (as you can just play in Solo mode and bypass others), so that avenue is non-existent
- The markets tend to flat and have done since Alpha - price variation is minimal in most places, but without a 3rd party tool that'd be impossible to discover.

So - can you give me a single proven tangible example of how your game has been directly affected by people who are sharing data?

I have to agree with Slopey, "the plural of anecdote is not data".
[edit] ^ I'm not sure how to articulate that differently. I apologize if that came off rude. It was not intended.

 

[Unpleasant]

I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that it disrupts the game play. If anything, it invigorates it.

What FD wants, and what you want, are arguably different things indeed. There's a deep philosophical rabbit hole we could run through for ages just on that very subject. Just because it hasn't been produced yet doesn't imply its not wanted. The official stance, at current, is that an API is a good idea. That being said, it is something they want us to experience, but do not have the time to invest in just yet.

Don't use 3rd party trade tools, then come tell us it doesn't disrupt other peoples trading.

Why would someone come up with these 3rd party trading tools if it didn't give those that use them an advantage in finding decent trade route? Please don't try and make out you don't get any kind of advantage in using them... That's simply lying.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

The point standing is that people play the game differently. By virtue of the game being online means you have to deal with people making friends and working together. If you chose not to do that, you can't imply that those that do are exploiting the game mechanics. If anything, that is exactly the kind of experience FD intended.

 

[Unpleasant]

Probably so, which begs the question why it is there at all.

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I have to agree with Slopey, "the plural of anecdote is not data".
[edit] ^ I'm not sure how to articulate that differently. I apologize if that came off rude. It was not intended.

If it didn't give you an advantage in finding high profit trade routes, which you can grind to near extinction, you simply wouldn't use it... period.

Are you saying you've gone to all this trouble of writing this program and it benefits you in no way at all?

 

[Slopey]

Don't use 3rd party trade tools, then come tell us it doesn't disrupt other peoples trading.

Why would someone come up with these 3rd party trading tools if it didn't give those that use them an advantage in finding decent trade route? Please don't try and make out you don't get any kind of advantage in using them... That's simply lying.

Of course there's an advantage - the advantage is that you don't have to fly around 30 different places in the blind to try to turn a profit.

Still waiting for how that tangibly affects your, or anyone else's game though...

 

[dale0404]

Thought this might be interesting, I was wrong.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Not really sure what OP is talking about here.

In short: Does/will FD allow any 3rd party app to enhance user experiences? To what extent can these applications leverage data from the game?

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Thought this might be interesting, I was wrong.

EULA are rather boring.

 

[dale0404]

EULA are rather boring.

Yep and unfortunately I have read a few...

 

[ggpwnkthx]

If it didn't give you an advantage in finding high profit trade routes, which you can grind to near extinction, you simply wouldn't use it... period.

Are you saying you've gone to all this trouble of writing this program and it benefits you in no way at all?

The advantage comes from collectively aggregating data. Working together for a greater cause. If that was never an intended design, why make a game that allows players to interact at all?

 

[baael]

In short: Does/will FD allow any 3rd party app to enhance user experiences? To what extend can these applications leverage data from the game?

They cannot do anything about it but show directions to developers. It is like prohibition, more you are fighting with it, more advanced it is. When there is some kind of API or data, people will not care about making advanced tools, at least not many. Otherwise there will be a new tool every week.

 

[Slopey]

In short: Does/will FD allow any 3rd party app to enhance user experiences? To what extend can these applications leverage data from the game?

Well, from my personal experience, I asked Michael Brookes if the BPC would be ok if it didn't scrape any data and had users type it in, hence it wasn't banned when the scraping tools (Andreas's Market Dump) were back in Beta. I've never heard anything to the contrary to date. FD know where to find me, and as I have said from day 1 (although you'll need DDF or Alpha forum access to confirm it), if FD tell me to shut down the BPC I will do it immediately, with no questions asked. Not because of a legal issue or EULA wrangling, because I respect their position as the author of a game I've waited 30 years to play, and which from the original has been a major influence on my life to date.

 

[Unpleasant]

Of course there's an advantage - the advantage is that you don't have to fly around 30 different places in the blind to try to turn a profit.

Still waiting for how that tangibly affects your, or anyone else's game though...

Because even if I play in solo mode, I still share the market with everyone else. I work for days exploring to find a profitable trade route. but 1 of slopey's gang enters the system, logs all the station prices and boom. A shed load of trades come, grind the trade route so it's not profitable anymore.

I then have to go off and spend days finding another profitable trade route. Only to have that ground away in a similar fashion.

And you know what boils my pee even more... The same guys come in the forums shouting about how it's easy to find profitable trade routes, etc etc etc.

Edit: maybe I understand the trade routes and pricing wrong, if so I'll apologies and happily be educated.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Well, from my personal experience, I asked Michael Brookes if the BPC would be ok if it didn't scrape any data and had users type it in, hence it wasn't banned when the scraping tools (Andreas's Market Dump) were back in Beta. I've never heard anything to the contrary to date. FD know where to find me, and as I have said from day 1 (although you'll need DDF or Alpha forum access to confirm it), if FD tell me to shut down the BPC I will do it immediately, with no questions asked. Not because of a legal issue or EULA wrangling, because I respect their position as the author of a game I've waited 30 years to play, and which from the original has been a major influence on my life to date.

And I think a lot of freelance devs stand with you in that sentiment. You've got a great app. I have a bit of a hard time believing its free, TBH. But not having any real guidelines as to whether or not it's breaking the EULA bothers me.

As much as I do like your app, as an end user I'd welcome some competitive as well as companion apps. But as it stands, other devs are left to loosely translating the EULA and risk misinterpreting before spending who knows how long trying to develop some new idea.

 

[Slopey]

Because even if I play in solo mode, I still share the market with everyone else. I work for days exploring to find a profitable trade route. but 1 of slopey's gang enters the system, logs all the station prices and boom. A shed load of trades come, grind the trade route so it's not profitable anymore.

Go and give me a specific example please. I have market data going back over 6 months, and for the last 2 months, I know where people have been updating prices from (which is where they are) so I can see if anyone has "swooped" in and trashed a trade route.

In my experience, and I'm not saying you're wrong, it hasn't happened, even when we only had 55 systems to play with, and in that case, FD themselves artificially changed prices of progenitor cells to make it *the* most profitable run ever, with virtually infinite stock.

But according to my data, what you're describing never ever happens. For example, the BPC has tracked 1718 jumps into Eravate in the last 24 hours - I don't see the forums raging there's no profit to be made there.

But if you can find a new route, upload it to the BPC, then let me know and I'll monitor it for the next 6 weeks.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Because even if I play in solo mode, I still share the market with everyone else. I work for days exploring to find a profitable trade route. but 1 of slopey's gang enters the system, logs all the station prices and boom. A shed load of trades come, grind the trade route so it's not profitable anymore.

I then have to go off and spend days finding another profitable trade route. Only to have that ground away in a similar fashion.

And you know what boils my pee even more... The same guys come in the forums shouting about how it's easy to find profitable trade routes, etc etc etc.

Edit: maybe I understand the trade routes and pricing wrong, if so I'll apologies and happily be educated.

For the record, for the trade information to be available, someone has to go to a station and record the data. Slopey's app doesn't do anything that a group of people couldn't already do with a Google spread sheet. My question to FD is, does doing something as simple as sharing, even recording, this data break the EULA? Because, at current, I'm left to wonder the contradiction between the deliberate design of the game and the wording of the EULA.

 

[Unpleasant]

Go and give me a specific example please. I have market data going back over 6 months, and for the last 2 months, I know where people have been updating prices from (which is where they are) so I can see if anyone has "swooped" in and trashed a trade route.

In my experience, and I'm not saying you're wrong, it hasn't happened, even when we only had 55 systems to play with, and in that case, FD themselves artificially changed prices of progenitor cells to make it *the* most profitable run ever, with virtually infinite stock.

But according to my data, what you're describing never ever happens. For example, the BPC has tracked 1718 jumps into Eravate in the last 24 hours - I don't see the forums raging there's no profit to be made there.

But if you can find a new route, upload it to the BPC, then let me know and I'll monitor it for the next 6 weeks.

Unfortunately I've been sat in space stations waiting for 8 rares to spawn for half an hour to avoid buying expensive sock and not have anywhere to sell it for a profit. So I can't give you examples to look at. It's just a fear I have with tools like these.

But... If you're saying it's never happened, I'm prepared to take you at your word and adjust my feelings on the subject.

 

[Armour]

Crowdsourced data is cheating. There's no getting around that. Those that use it can rationalise it any way they want, they are cheats. However, the point is that they are cheats, and thus care little for the spirit of the game itself.

Frontier can either:

• Wage a War on Insider Traders. They would probably fare as well as the SEC and other IRL regulators, i.e. pitifully. The resources wasted on this could also be astronomical, although seeing the odd careless fool getting permabanned would still be funny...
• Provide better, more accurate and timely tools in-game. This will mean the whole "Age Of Sail meets Rome...in Space" spirit of the game will be altered (for the worse IMO), but as mentioned earlier, these are cheats, and thus care little for that.

The blurb about enhanced Galnet services being "available for a subscription" is probably an indicator that the latter path is the one they will choose to follow.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

They cannot do anything about it but show directions to developers. It is like prohibition, more you are fighting with it, more advanced it is. When there is some kind of API or data, people will not care about making advanced tools, at least not many. Otherwise there will be a new tool every week.

As far as the API goes, I think you're right about there being a multitude of apps. Or at least I hope that to be the case. However, I think you'll find people that have a desire to find creative ways to be innovative. There are a seemingly infinite ways to display, parse, and manipulate data.