Collection of Ideas for Elite 4

Riedquat For A Dream · Feb 5, 2010

Consequences

This is not my idea, but rather Mr Braben's himself! Way back in 1992 I remember being transfixed by the potential of this plan of his, featured in a preview for Frontier in the old Amiga magazine ‘The One’:

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“The point of this game is pretty much the same as the previous one, but trading is now very much a backdrop. The idea is that the whole game will be like a running adventure where every action of the player will have a consequence. So for instance, if a ship is owned by a cruise line running regular services and you blow it out of the sky, the company will notice that it’s not reached its destinations and send assassins after you for revenge.”

“There are lots of individual characters that the computer constantly keeps tracks of and it will generate new ones to replace that have been killed,” explains David. “There will continuously be new ones added, just to keep the game changing. So although there will be a large body of characters that you will deal with, you will always see some people disappear and new ones arriving.”

As to how many of these supporting players there will actually be, David is unsure. “It’s a non-specific amount of the moment, mainly because of the memory they take, but it’s likely to be somewhere in the region of a thousand. It’s quite a lot.”

It would have to be, with David planning to have every single ship in the game piloted by a real character – there are no ‘drone’ ships that are there simply for the sake of it – with possible far-reaching repercussions each time you shoot one down in combat. “The thing that is a bit of a variable between now and when the game is completed is just how much of that is implemented,” he explains.
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This vision of his way back in 1992 is consistent with preview information about The Outsider:

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Several key proprietary technologies, which Frontier has been developing for some time, make their debut in The Outsider and bring the sort of freedom of action first seen in Elite up to date. The developers claim that the game abandons the traditional, prescriptive, mostly linear story of current generation games, and replaces it by simulating characters’ motivations and aims. This gives the player genuine freedom to change the story outcomes. Frontier Developments says that each player will get a unique experience rather than simply switching between ‘good’ or ‘evil’. In an interview with the Gametheoryshow, Braben said that it is this level of freedom that will demonstrate what it is to be a "next-gen" video game.
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As such, I think those old Frontier previews hold a lot of clues as to what Elite IV will be aiming for now that the 512k memory restrictions of the Amiga are removed. If this is the case... then it’s going to be mind blowing.

Imagine all of the pilots having a history, an allegiance, an agenda, an opinion of you, a trustworthiness, a favour to ask, a grudge to settle, a nemesis, a sense of fear...

Just like life, if you keep out of trouble then for the most part trouble should keep out of your way, allowing the game's experience to reflect the player's style. More interested in trade than combat? Then don't upset the locals. This technique could see you even able to slip through the least stable systems unnoticed more often than not. But if you start causing problems then you could be finding yourself running into enemies even on the Sol to Barnard Star run.

Imagine rescuing the crew of a stricken freighter in space and befriending the rescued pilot, swapping trade tips and smuggling information over a period of game-months. Imagine the sense of loss upon hearing that they had been assassinated, then taking it upon yourself to track down their killer...

And all of these experiences, along with the characters you interact with, would be largely unique to you. Wow!

dcforeman · Feb 6, 2010

Dump Elite 4 completely, and do a complete universe reboot.

Set the game 10 - 15 years before the first tharoid war. A time when mankind reached into the stars, and found no alien life. Just a barren universe with simple animal and plant life.

Have the player join the Elite universe as a simple cargo hauller in leave. A cobra Mark III, a cheap pulse laser, and alot of pirates to gain bounty on.

Leave the physics thing out, it's been tried with the Babylon 5 project. Gamers today are not what they where if they can't pick up the controller and use it they'll give up. So a simple boat physics engine with a jump drive. Just like the original, with frontier like gadgets like autopilots, naviation computers, weapons, hyperdrive upgrades, ships, etc. Games like X3, and X-Wing have trained users to think a certain way about space games, no point fighting that.

In the short run, give players the usual. A ship, and th freedom to choose a role. Rip off Eve's ecconomic system, without the MMO bit. Have it completely single player, or add a limited 64 player user hosted server where the user can set difficulty and host it from their own machines as they do in freelancer.

Rip off X3's base building system, but make this very expensive, force users to earn. Do it so it's going to be a minimum of 10 ingame years before they can start thinking about this.

Skill training, again gives the player a sense of achivement, it's common in all roleplaying games.

3d based where the player isn't confined to the ship, but can step out of it, meet clients, go into bars, find shady places. Much like Mass Effect. You can spawn storylines from these locations.

It could even be amusing to have players, whenever they blow up, if they have no money, make it back via an escape capsal, then have to work in teh bar for a few months before they earn enough for a cheap shuttle, have them take on interplanety cargo runs for pennies, until they can get an intersellar ship again.

Then when they'ved worked up to the 15th year doing minor story lines, missions hinting at whats to come, have the whole damned universe turned upside down with a full scale tharoid invasion.

potsmoke66 · Feb 6, 2010

the idea, to start the gameplay at the beginning of space exploration sounds good to me, also that you have (generally) to start as a "nobody" and gain money and experience in various skills is something i really would like to see in E4, but i wouldn't touch the physics of elite, no. there might be a lot of players that are more common with games like "X" or "X-Wing". i got both myself, but i never play them, because i don't like space ships flying around as like there would be a "medium" to fly in (such as air), think about how stupid else, if my "acceleration compensators" could break my main engine, then i would fly with the "acceleration compensators" rather than with the main engine, ok. so no limitations to the physics, they have to be as realistic as possible, else i wouldn't play FE4 and i think a lot of fans here go with me. contrairy to that i wouldn't give a pilot extra's like autopilot or anything else that makes controlling a space ship easier, before he reaches a certain level, to me the most fascinating part of frontier is to control a spaceship manual. it could be more realistic, no wired controls, no automatic alignment to rotation (docking) or horizon (landing) without or with a damaged autopilot.
different setup camera views, that would be nice and a overhauled HUD, overhauled i said, not overloadet, but if you have no wired controls, then you must have things like an artificial horizon, targetting tunnels (the only thing that gives you an idea about your relative speed in open space), acceleration gauges (all three axes).
sorry for all the rookies who can't fly a spaceship

finally the crew should have more effect on the game, like if you have only noobs, then it would be hard to control and no way to maintain a big ship (you have to dock more often), only if technicians, or other specialist are under contract, you could manage certain tasks. maybe, if one's a bad pilot, it should be possible to hire a good or excellent one, who works then like a "advanced" autopilot, or if you hire a "weapons officer" will help you in fight (rearranging ships energy consumption automated, i.e.).

dcforeman · Feb 6, 2010

If I were making a game for just, you, I and other old FFE fans I'd agree.

But the game has to sell. Us old hats, born of the days of the BBC Master, and earily PC's. Can not be focused on. For this game to be a sucess. It must be rebooted, it must be redesigned, and the console player must be considered first.

Only in this way will Elite be marketable, and sellable. Also remember this flight model, isn't outside what we've already experienced. The Original Elite for the BBC didn't have the physics of FFE. It was much closer to X-Wing then any of it's sequals.

Using jump drive technology to cover the vast distances, makes alot more sense than using the newton model FFE used. It also means we don't have to use time dialation, so if Frontier goes MMO as it likely will if it ever gets made. Then we have no problems.

Go back to the roots of elite. Get a new generation interested in the franchies. Remember it's been 15 years, and there are not many of us true elite fans let. Frontier developements has dragged it's heels too long to force a complicated newtonian flight sim onto a bunch of console users with the attention span of a flattened rasbery. Games like X, X2, X3, Eve Online and Freelancer are the modern day trailblazers Elite 4 needs to out do before it can become king of space trading games again.

SuperG · Feb 6, 2010

Well if so fixated on realistic Physics. All other things must be realistic to.

If you planet start expanding to space. Like Nasa Esa etc does. It will be boring. And only doable for real astronauts, astrophysigist. Or some educated hobbist. Someone who want to become one but is a unreachable goal.
The Nasa simulation freaks. There us no trading no combat.

So it more preferable like if you want to travel as john do. Pick up you harley and drive to some where, bar 10 miles down the road. To do that Space version wise would be totaly not in a time where humans start to explore. But more of where there is long time kolonisation. Even independant kolonies and trading between them. And most of all. spacefaring tech reaches the masses. If that even possible. So you go from spacestation to a other space station in orbit on the same planet. In your space tug.

This sets also the tech to extreem fictional on top of the known sience. even now Mars with current NAsa tech is to far away. You need several $Miljards to fund it and even enhance and evole you nation wide tech level underway for several 10th of years. This would be a international effort of mankind.
And a very select trained crew may go there.

So to have trading, like trade with earth the tech must be on a level that reaching Gound space port to orbit must be realy cheap. Not those milions you need now to send a space shutle.

This means some excotic fiction tech for realy fast inter planair speed. And planet side landing. Even some FTL inter planair speed would be nice. Inertia dempening a must. Because if you accelerate with 1G it take still a lot of time to get up to speed. That's for interplanitair travel. For interstallar you need FTL speed that make traveling to a star away 10 LY takes 6 hours to few day's.

Very rough estimate for the closest kolonisable and kolonised exoplanet would be around 50LY way, like beyond 7 closest stars. And then 5 other kolonies spread up to 100 LY in any direction. Intelligent ALien life form might found at closest 40Ly to 100Ly. Like avatar indian aliens, low tech. Alien Being with advanced FTL ready might be 500 LY.

So a "FireFly" TV show universe is also possible. Even if there are aliens.

Like most space games wich start with a Fighter, wich make no sense to me. Would have need extreem acceleration with enertia dempening. But only for short range. stike and defence range. compared to like driving around in a harly. A space tug if not military. That like a car. If you go realistic you won't start in a military vessel as civilian in save space. We don't drive Tanks or a hummer with a bushmaster .50 on it. Wenn we go to work.

Traveling you do on a spaceship not a fighter. A Blackbird SR71 pilot fly's for 12hour missions. But free untrained civiliens do not. And have some more then basic luxory with it. The equalavent of such ship would be a yacht size ship. Of 15 to 20 meters. In space you depends on more faile saves and reduncdant systems and need more extra space. And bigger engines . So a bit ship would be 30 to 50 meters. Like a non excistaned commercial civilian submarine.

In such space traveling time, Fly by wire and Auto navigating would be something common like breathing. Wenn you are in the middle in a space traveling age. where civilians travel. You don't take a Astranaut career. Where you branch of to, from militair pilot career. And nation spends milions on your training. you are selected out of 1000 competitors. It would be more like a tad more advance drivings license. And you don't need the astronaut capabilities to be able to achief that.

So real Physics would be totaly no problem. And going to orbit is just a punch on a butten. And later in game a crew member handles the button smashing.

Only in un save space where (wild wild West) wild wild space, you can get millspect vessels as non military.

This means if you level up in game you need a homebase somewhere on borderline of save space. To put your illigal vessels.
Or have a licence.

So if tad more then everage joe can and may travel space. Space traveling would be very accessable even with real physics and be fly by wire and very automated.
If part of a crew you have at least one or more members cable to do all task needed to do.

Even the old cheap ship would have a basic ship computer. You can interact with. In those time it would be a crap computer compared to the new and milspec stuf. But to us real people and current real tech. It would be someting like a super computer cray thing. But very compact thing.

To be it like driving a car would be something realy extreem.

But similair as like "fire fly". Where you buy a old vessel. With a smal crew. You have a low level captain licence and your pilot manage the navigation.

It would be like independant trucker doing international runs. Driving 24 hours with a crew of 2 or 3. But in thise case it will be like Space trucking.

So how to start. Well you start in a small old Freighter or personal carrier or a hybrid.

The game could start getting the licence as a small training, wich would be the first quest. Then your second quest is to find and buy your first ship.

In reallife you can classifie ships as you want. But ships follow in structure etc just the Physics rules. So the choice of ship spects depends on what you want to do most of the time.

Steve · Feb 6, 2010

SuperG · Feb 6, 2010

I'am a PC hardware enthausiast since we got or first PC. iNtel based 80386S 25Mhz. And a gamer.

So It are PC Parts by code.

potsmoke66 · Feb 7, 2010

a4000, with a scsi-cart emulator for the cd drive.
those PC fans, must be very proud of them rotten "papertape feed waving machine controller" sorry, i have to state (even if i use actually a x86 based machine), intel outside (or like others stated PC's are braindead).

and likewise with my frontier ranking, i can tell you what i want, there's no proof.

c'mon, all drives are still lowlevel and if a drive's busy, nothing can be done.

potsmoke66 · Feb 7, 2010

back to topic
i'm not shure, but i think mainly people get lost in grafx of a game. it's a riddle to me, but it's true, you can have a complete braindead gameplay like final fantasy but those little movies are so nice to watch, that the game became a success. i never liked it,completly stupid role playing game with no possibilty for the player to act, except to select attacs and items or spell's, if there where no grafx, no game. but it was that way from the beginning (and it's like with those tv series which no one watches, but they're succsessful). i started off computergames with a intellivision, because i liked the many sports games and that most games was setup for 2 or more players (somewhat it depends on cpu power and romsize 8-16kb, sadly often enough you couldn't play alone). but who did you think made the match in the first battle for consoles? coleco, stupid re releases of arcade hits, sprite grafx which moved like cheap japanese anims, 2 frames for a movement, while the inty "runningman" was setup by little squares, which could be moved fluid (32 frames) in 16! directions. stupid fight games, which still have there sequels today and still are crap to me, watch the movements, they're still very low animated, but the custumers love it.
what i want to say is, when the grafx are top, there will be a lot of people buying the game (buy, play is not important). and the game will be hailed in the press, you can bed your ***. it's a sad fact.
speaking about roleplaying/adventure games try, "advanced dungeons and dragons" from old inty and you'll see what it could had become.
talking about grafx, i never liked those stereotype looking people and animals/monsters, still if you look at a lot of games the "avatar" is characterless, if you go and look for arts done as replacement or for dev. still these stereotype looking guy's, i don't know, it looks like if they would have been all together on the same arts school.

finally one can say, if a game's become a succsess depends mostly on the efford you take in it's promotion.

fun fact: before inty was closed by mattel, developers thought about a new machine, motorola 68000 based.....

potsmoke66 · Feb 7, 2010

5£ are not much money, i remember i payed for inty's PGA Golf Sfr.120 (size 8k).

SuperG · Feb 7, 2010

I remember writing asembler for a 6800x based controler on a 8086 XT in my education years way back in the past. And feeding also a Z80 based controler with machine code in hex form trough a hex key pad.

My opinion.

I think marketing is very important. Only the big titles have the funding resources for that to do it large scale. And so the resources to get a top dev studio with enough funding and time to pull it of. Also sequels of big IP give some design routine they can fall back at. And extend and refine it. Espacialy if the same studio makes the sequels.
Graphics supports marketing a lot. And as a gamer I do like Graphics a lot and is a important thing to have for me. Also Triple AAA games often don't have to choose between GFX and gameplay often they do deliver on both. Or the deliver a game that is more in balance on every aspect. Might eb that one stand out. But non forgotten.

Because GFX and gameplay are independant. But they share dev resources.

Like Crysis. It stand out by it GFX. But the physics AI and gameplay where high level. Only the choice to switch from modernwarfare US vs North koreans. To a Lostplanet snow like Aliens I didn't like that theme. But was well done to.

The biggest heap of games that come out are clones and low or with limited project budged and thus funding resources and very important lack of time needed. And a deadline they shall not pass. GFX is a must. And then every part of the game fight for resources. GFX mostly wins. The reasons that lot of games don't deliver or are rushed and so buggy.

Console games are filterd by there platform owner. So a dev have to deal with publsiher but also each console firm. Who previews game progress to.
So the worst games are filterd out.

So for Elite 4
For the GFX vs Gameplay thing.
If there is time to focus on both do it al or focus on Gameplay.

Also I believe in those 10 to 25 years. The game audience has evolved to more casual. Computer and consoles are more common so hardcore market growe to. It in realy with the more new casual players a lot bigger. But making games with top notch GFX take big teams to develop that high level of Content and enough of it to fill a full game.

Also accesebility is very important. Also Space genre has evolved by it competitons. The industry have found a bigger market the casual mass market.

MW2 is very accesible. Doing X3 or Universal combat way. Is bad thing for sales. Freelancer is a example of a polished and finished and accesable space game if lokin in the same genre.

Also if lokin at current tech used in latest superiority jet fighter. It's a goal to make all of it accesable and overseable so the yet fighter pilot can focus on the action and tactics. So automate and assist. Most Yet's depend on fly by wire. With out it they fly unstable. Example B2, Stealth Fighter etc.

So n my opinion real physics and getting into orbit and sling shot manoeveres are done by onboard assisting system's. Also docking.

OzFalcon · Mar 3, 2010

Paper models in game.

Really simple idea.
When you buy a ship in game, You get to print a paper model of that ship
to cut, fold, glue and hang from a piece of cotton or string.

OzFalcon · Mar 5, 2010

Co-Op Play

I'd really like to see co-op play in a non-mmo environment.
eg.
You have a list of friends - The game checks to see who is also playing.
At any time you can sync your game with various friends games.
You can park your ship for a nominal fee and join the crew of your friend.
Or lock in a ship formation and navi computer if group flying.
Or just go your separate ways and meet up later at some location/stardate.
You can play around with the comms, making local comms instant and comms between stars lag - dependent on distance.
Other details like matching stardates would have to be resolved.

Some fully dedicated comms, navi and turret screens are needed too.

And as great as it may sound, I don't think I really want a 1st person perspective. Mabie in-ship ie. Run around fixing damage or repelling a pirate boarding party, But nothing more.

turwhitt · Mar 5, 2010

OzFalcon said:
I'd really like to see co-op play in a non-mmo environment.
eg.
You have a list of friends - The game checks to see who is also playing.
At any time you can sync your game with various friends games.
You can park your ship for a nominal fee and join the crew of your friend.
Or lock in a ship formation and navi computer if group flying.
Or just go your separate ways and meet up later at some location/stardate.
You can play around with the comms, making local comms instant and comms between stars lag - dependent on distance.
Other details like matching stardates would have to be resolved.

Yeah this has been discussed before, and it's a great idea. It would be quite revolutionary too.

It solves the problem of "lonely" play and also that of people who don't like to come into contact with the more moronic element within MMO player bases.

It could be a real selling point, to appeal to both sides of the divide.

I think the stardate problem could be resolved by giving a length of time by which the mission/elements must be complete, rather than a date. When in "group mission mode" your calendar is replaced with a mission timer, so that all team members refer to this rather than to dates.

DraQ · Mar 5, 2010

If you limited time compression to SP and formation flight, it wouldn't even get in the way. Syncing up could consist of game arranging the laging player to wait in accelerated time - while landed, or orbiting, that's actually quite brilliant as it would remove almost all the nuisances caused by time compression in non-massive multiplayer online games hosted locally.

Frontier, hire this guy, he has good ideas!

DraQ · Mar 8, 2010

Bumpdate:

Given the coop mode described, freely intermeshing with single player, why not go even further? Allow the kind of setup where one of the player would be sort of a game-master instead, with an array of tools allowing for all kind of interventions in the gameworld and for storytelling. It would basically work like a PnP RPG session (though not "canonical" one, due to lack of stats) with GM setting up an adventure for the players.

Can it get any better?

SuperG · Mar 8, 2010

CoÖP Oh yes. Remeber some long ago fun in a F15 dubble seat superiority fighter. '
Or a RTS game where you handle all assets together. A game with Zergs?

DraQ · Mar 8, 2010

The rough draft of this coop system would be:

On connection, the lagging player (meaning the one whose stardate is the earliest) parks in the previously agreed on spot, where the game waits it out in accelerated time, till the players all arrive there and their time is in sync from now on, for the remainder of the session, individual control over time compression is disabled, and it can only be activated by the current squad leader when the other ships are in formation and have set their guidance to "slave", squad leader's thrusters are automatically throttled down if there is any ship in the formation that is slower than his.
The session ends with desync, which allows all players to get on with their single player business.

One of the players can be GM - he doesn't need a commander file, and has an array of tools allowing him to fully control what happens in the universe at his disposal, he can also communicate with players and override their time compression, as well as switch their soundtracks for dramatic effect, if the game has dynamic music.

SuperG · Mar 11, 2010

Well that one option. But so much as there are Multiplayer modes. You can put several Coöp modes in it.

There could be a adhock mode where coop player could drop in to assist main player and drop out wenn ever they want. Could be handy for a presistend singlplayer game session. Where Coop player may drop in. If you enable that.

Then there can be a option where one coop player has full acces like main player. Two corporates suit cooperate!
Or a mode where mainplayer set parts of it units in controle of those players. Or mode where you set units or part of corporation in shared mode.

Or each Coop player has his own full coperate division.

I would not go into merging and sync two or more persistend singleplayer gamesessions into one. I think that can get very complicated. If Player are isolated by starting point and don't have same posesion in shared systems. It could.
But Coop player don't play together all the time. one could be casual while the other play's the game a lot. So you have to deal with idle coporations. And at some point the corporation get to big where merging get difficult but possible if you take drastic solutions.

DraQ · Mar 20, 2010

SuperG said:
I would not go into merging and sync two or more persistend singleplayer gamesessions into one. I think that can get very complicated. If Player are isolated by starting point and don't have same posesion in shared systems. It could.
But Coop player don't play together all the time. one could be casual while the other play's the game a lot. So you have to deal with idle coporations. And at some point the corporation get to big where merging get difficult but possible if you take drastic solutions.

Well, you could also work around it by allowing two SP modes - a dedicated SP one and an SP/Coop one - the latter would limit the non-mergeable influences to Coop part.

This kind of coop mode would have a great advantage in terms of persistence over the conventional one, without relying on MMO model with all it's undesirable parts and hefty limitations.

Also, GMing, dammit!, GMing!

TBH I didn't think much about corporations and such - I'm not a fan of this kind of gameplay and other stuff, like contacts or reputations of players are physically separate and lack major impact on the gameworld, so they would be readily mergeable.