Insurance/Re-buy changes - less frustration, same price

[excalibus]

The system as it is works how it is intended

I can see the benefit of flagging the rebuy text in red IF the person does not have the funds to pay it but it should NOT put up any requesters when launching etc, it should ONLY be a cosmetic thing for those who who might otherwise overlook it...

It WONT stop the problem people face from not being financially responsible from happening so it won't stop them losing their ships...

I have amy sidey parked, my viper bounty hunter / assassin parked, my cobra smuggler / trader parked and I just brought a type 6, upgraded the cargo bays and took my first 100 ton of gold for trading nearby, I had 92K left in the bank and rebuy was under 50K, now I have upgraded the FSD and Power Plant and will now move forward with some trading and will be an asp owner (AGAIN) soon enough (I sold the ASP shortly after buying it to do bounty hunting and conflict zone fun)

Point is I will keep the ships as I buy them, use them and upgrade them... I will ALWAYS have a fall back position not a free trip to a free sidewinder and 1000 cr

 

[Riepah]

The system as it is now punishes people for one, admittedly avoidable, mistake, so harshly that it's not unlikely to make someone quit the game. That isn't good for them, it isn't good for Frontier and it isn't good for you, either.

Personally, I've never been in the situation that I lost my ship without being able to cover the re-buy cost, but it's clear that it does happen to people at times, and sometimes they do something safe enough, only to fall victim to a bug.

I don't see the point of a mechanic that has the potential to drive people away from the game, if it serves no other, apparent purpose. I don't think anyone would quit over somebody else being able to keep their ship when they die. And for everyone who says that it's "Elite: Dangerous", don't we remove the "Dangerous" part if we refuse to leave stations without the re-buy cost on hand, anyway, which is what everyone says is the smart thing to do?

Being supposed to have the re-buy cash on hand doesn't make the game any more or less difficult, it just makes it so that you either have to constantly overshoot your goal in terms of credits, having to farm more cash than you need to purchase what you want, or lose everything you worked for in the blink of an eye. It makes the feeling of finally being able to buy that new ship so much less satisfying, because you'll know, while you may now finally own it, you can't fly it yet, for fear of losing it all.

I can deal with the current mechanics, but I really see them doing more harm than good in the long run.

I'm genuinely curious; would my proposed change hurt anyone, here? Would any of you quit if it became possible to re-buy your ship at any given time after losing it, rather than only immediately after your death?

 

[Slategrey252]

I'm failing to see why the game should do your risk management for you.

It's Elite - Dangerous, not Elite - Social Services.

 

[Riepah]

I'm failing to see why the game should do your risk management for you.

It's Elite - Dangerous, not Elite - Social Services.

Because people quitting over something like this, which is something that will happen, isn't good for anybody involved. Anyone who leaves this game in anger won't buy the expansions, and less sold expansions, means less money in Frontier's pockets, which may mean less updates for everyone down the line. You can call this game Dangerous all you like, but game elements that have a considerable chance of causing people to lose their progress and quit aren't a good idea if you're trying to retain customers.

 

[Corwyn]

My suggestion is for people to take responsibility for themselves, learn proper money management, and accept that if they fly without enough money in the bank, they risk it all. Stop whining, stop blaming the game for their own bad judgement.

Without risk, the rewards are worthless.

 

[Riepah]

Without risk, the rewards are worthless.

By never leaving a station without enough money in the bank, you remove the risk anyway.

 

[Corwyn]

By never leaving a station without enough money in the bank, you remove the risk anyway.

Perhaps, but you won't whine if you lose everything for it.

 

[Riepah]

Perhaps, but you won't whine if you lose everything for it.

You state, on the one hand, "Without risk, the rewards are worthless", and on the other hand, that taking said risk is "bad judgement". So what is your recommendation now? Do you fly with spare re-buy cost in your pocket because it's too risky otherwise, or do you go ahead and fly without the spare cash, because, without risk, the rewards are worthless?

 

[speighty]

Sorry, but this discussion has been ongoing for over a year now. The DDA and 100's of threads afterwards have evolved the system to what it is today, which is basically the same as previous versions of Elite. I can't see that FD will spend any time or money trying to find another solution that will inevitably be found wanting by some % of the community.

There is enough on the web and this forum to warn any players of the game BEFORE they buy it. Even a simple search or review will highlight this to the unsuspecting.
If you dont know about it before you buy it, you havent researched the game, and can reasonably expect to meet up with various surprises along the way.

Accept it for what it is ..... it's unlikely to change.

 

[ash73]

Insurance should be a weekly/monthly fee based on the value of your ship, not a one off payment. Insurance companies profit from the people that *don't* make claims; everyone should pay whether they claim or not, but your fee should increase for a while after a claim.

The current mechanic is ruining the game for too many people. Who cares who's fault it is, just fix it. Personally I'd prefer it to just send you back to the last station you visited, so you lose cargo/profits/kills from the current flight. It's meant to be fun.

 

[Toramo]

Well commander... space is dangerous...

Do you really want a game where you can't die ? Do you want to fly safe after spending all your money on platinum metal and make your profits freely ?
Sorry but, in my opinion, no...
There are nothing better than taking risks. Take your cargo, fly as fast as you can and avoid interception, fear about loosing everything to make more credits, it is elite, it is dangerous...

Some tips :

- Allways keep 2 ships up to date ... For example, your main and your Cobra. If you loose one you are not starting from scratch on a sidey...
- Play safe and keep enough money to pay your insurance...
- Never fight someone better than you ...
- do not use burst inside station ^^
- and more...

Fly dangerous, but safe.

Bye commanders.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Or just give the player X% of the value of the ship back in cash (where X is sth between 50-70) minus the insurance costs.

Like e.g. if the ship is 100M and the insurance 5M.

If the player has 106M and loses his ship he loses 5M insurance.
If the player has 104M and loses his ship he loses 104M, aka everything (current system, which I find unreasonably harsh).
If the player has 104M he loses 35M (suggested system).

 

[Tanith Low]

I don't get what the problem is here. The mechanic is simple and easy to understand. It's harsh but it gives death meaning beyond oh I guess I re spawn now.

I understand how people post on here in frustration. I've been in the bad place where I flew my brand new Cobra out of the docking bay, hit a Lakon, then hit the station and died. I didn't have the money for insurance and "back to sidey for me". I was furious. But you know what, I've done that once, and not made that mistake again. I also didn't come on the forums demanding that they change it because I'd had a bad experience. If you're doing this repeatedly (and some people are apparently) then I would politely ask that you learn from your own mistakes. Because that's what flying without insurance is, your mistake. The game shouldn't change so that mistakes don't matter.

Beyond that the fact that dying is harsh makes every close dogfight, every run from the pirates or the cops, every near miss at the docking window all the more tense and exciting. Without the penalty for death this would just be Elite : Dossing around in space.

Instead it's Elite: Dangerous

 

[Riepah]

Well commander... space is dangerous...

Do you really want a game where you can't die ? Do you want to fly safe after spending all your money on platinum metal and make your profits freely ?
Sorry but, in my opinion, no...
There are nothing better than taking risks. Take your cargo, fly as fast as you can and avoid interception, fear about loosing everything to make more credits, it is elite, it is dangerous...

Some tips :

- Allways keep 2 ships up to date ... For example, your main and your Cobra. If you loose one you are not starting from scratch on a sidey...
- Play safe and keep enough money to pay your insurance...
- Never fight someone better than you ...
- do not use burst inside station ^^
- and more...

Fly dangerous, but safe.

Bye commanders.

Excuse me, but being able to shell out the re-buy cost a while later than at the point of your death, doesn't make this a game where you can't die. It also doesn't mean you're flying safely after spending all your money on platinum - that platinum will still be gone. Besides, trading isn't exactly the most "Elite" or "Dangerous" path to take to begin with.

And, you as well, say "There are nothing better than taking risks" on the one hand, and "Play safe and keep enough money to pay insurance" on the other, in the same post. You can't really have it both ways. You either take the risk, or you avoid it. If you choose to avoid the risk by always carrying enough money around, it means your game isn't any more "dangerous" now than it would be if people who DO take risks could re-earn their re-buy cost after losing their ship.

 

[bitstorm]

Please don't assume the player is inept and then shape game mechanics around such people, it lowers the standard for everyone.

Treat your players like adults, Elite allows a player to shape their own fate - please allow let them do so.

Shaping your own destiny very much includes the person who chose to run without insurance in order to pull in more profit, but then messed, paid the price and learnt a lesson the hard way.

 

[Riepah]

Without the penalty for death this would just be Elite : Dossing around in space.

Instead it's Elite: Dangerous

Nobody is asking for the penalty for death to be removed. Death will cost exactly the same as it does now. Unless you regularly dip below your re-buy threshold, your game isn't any more "Dangerous" now than it would be after my proposed change. You even call flying without insurance a "mistake".

Not everyone will decide to start over after they lose their progress, like you did. Yes, it's commendable to learn from mistakes. But it's a bad thing when a player leaves because they had either progressed farther before making the same mistake, or simply aren't as willing to start from scratch and would rather drop the game and play something else.

This game needs every player it can get. Frontier will want as many people as possible to purchase expansion packs to keep this game going. If this game bleeds customers because of people making a single mistake and losing all their progress over it, it'll suck for everyone in the long run. You may end up with "Elite: Empty" rather than "Elite: Dangerous" at some point.

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Please don't assume the player is inept and then shape game mechanics around such people, it lowers the standard for everyone.

Treat your players like adults, Elite allows a player to shape their own fate - please allow let them do so.

Shaping your own destiny very much includes the person who chose to run without insurance in order to pull in more profit, but then messed, paid the price and learnt a lesson the hard way.

Making one mistake doesn't mean somebody is inept. I'm not sure why you'd lose the feeling of being treated as an adult if other people could work for their re-buy cost in retrospect.
And flying without insurance doesn't mean they were trying to pull in more profit. I'd wager a good chunk of the people who fly without insurance, do so because they were finally able to afford that new ship they wanted, and were eager to give it a test run.

 

[Corwyn]

You state, on the one hand, "Without risk, the rewards are worthless", and on the other hand, that taking said risk is "bad judgement". So what is your recommendation now? Do you fly with spare re-buy cost in your pocket because it's too risky otherwise, or do you go ahead and fly without the spare cash, because, without risk, the rewards are worthless?

The point is accepting that there is risk, and If the worst happens, don't cry over it.

I've gone out many many times without enough to cover insurance, It's a rush, exciting, and if i did get my ship shot out from under me and couldn't afford to rebuy it, I'll accept going back to a sidey, knowing it was my own fault. If it's due to a bug, I'll post a ticket. That's the mature way to play. I won't rage quit, or come to the boards and whine how the game is unfair.

 

[Riepah]

The point is accepting that there is risk, and I'd the worst happens, don't cry over it.

I've gone out many many times without enough to cover insurance, It's a rush, exciting, and if i did get my ship shot out from under me and couldn't afford to rebuy it, I'll accept going back too a sidey, knowing it was my own fault. If it's due to a bug, I'll post a ticket. That's the mature way to play. I won't rage quit, or come to the boards and whine how the game is unfair.

Okay, good. That's commendable enough. I wonder how you could prove that it happened due to a bug, though, or how to prevent abuse. But why do you oppose this change for other people, exactly? You could still fly under re-buy cost and simply opt not to make use of the postponed re-buy of your former ship. Nothing about your playstyle would have to change, but the new system may help to retain some customers who may otherwise have quit the game.

 

[Corwyn]

Okay, good. That's commendable enough. I wonder how you could prove that it happened due to a bug, though, or how to prevent abuse. But why do you oppose this change for other people, exactly? You could still fly under re-buy cost and simply opt not to make use of the postponed re-buy of your former ship. Nothing about your playstyle would have to change, but the new system may help to retain some customers who may otherwise have quit the game.

I oppose it because it caters to the whiners, giving a free way out of risk and danger, and destroys my fun by doing the same to me. If it's only an option, it's a cheaters way out.

 

[Riepah]

I oppose it because it caters to the whiners, giving a free way out of risk and danger, and destroys my fun by doing the same to me.

Not everyone who'd quit the game over a big loss of progression is a "whiner" - I'd guess more people would quit the game in silence than decide to take it to the forums, honestly. It's not a free way out of risk and danger either, as they're paying the same price for death as everybody who decides to fly in a more careful manner by keeping money on hand. They just pay their price in retrospect rather than on the spot. They still suffer more than somebody who keeps the re-buy cost ready, as they'll have to earn it back through less effective means than somebody who gets their good ship back right away.

If you feel your fun would be destroyed by being offered an easier way to deal with death, it sounds like the upcoming ironman mode is exactly what you're looking for, and could solve your personal gripe with this suggestion. Will you still oppose this once the ironman mode is offered?