PVP is not Griefing

[Shanaeri]

Perhaps a short term answer is to nerf dumbfires. Either by giving them a reload time between salvo's(realistic) or by greatly reducing the impact they have on shields. I've tested maxing out an eagle with dumbfires and so long as you line up the first shot it's an instant win against pretty much anything.

So, nerfing dumbfires would force the player to take something else to take down shields or use in between reloads thus making the battle more than just 'who shoots first'

There's also a bug I found where you can sell an empty dumbfire launcher for the same price as you bought a full one, thus negating the whole reload cost kinda thing.

 

[CMDR Byrt Makklin]

"It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it.""

I think Bananarama have already provided the answer to the rhetorical question in the OP's post. Interdicting someone and then hitting them with the bang stick repeatedly may not - TECHNICALLY - be griefing, but it's not cool.

Let's be honest.

Even the NPCs send a message - "I'm going to boil you up, greenhorn!" Least that's clear.

Or, "Your cargo is mine. Fact." That is also clear.

"hello. I is nice player person. I want your cargo." That would help.

"Hello. I is not nice. I want your cargo. Then I am going to kill you anyway." Very helpful. Scarier too. But everyone knows where they stand.

"Interdiction detected! Oh, OK, submit then. PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW - wait, how did that happen? I have 60% of my hull left?! What is this guy about?!"

Is not a cool or easily understandable concept for most normal people. Behave like a human, and people won't get their knickers in a twist about PvP so often. I've never had a pleasant PvP experience - "Hey, dude, nice ship. Fancy a fight?" would interest me. "I'M GONNA KILL YA BECAUSE n00b. OH AND YER MOM!" would amuse me. But the couple of times that have made me go into solo have just been complete nonsensical interdiction, straight destruction fests that made me go - "Nah. I don't hate other people. I'm just happier when they're not around." (with a hat tip to Charles Bukowski.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

Aye, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sadly we all know they exist and every precaution has been implemented to avoid it. Which is why it's irrelevant what your own definition is. The one defining thing about griefing is how that player makes you feel and any player can be avoided by any other player. How else can you remove griefing?

.... by identifying and systematically removing those players from "normal" play - the matchmaking system could easily be used to facilitate the removal part once the identifications have been made.

 

[darshu]

You may also start with some cargo and with downgrade of some components it is easy to deck out the starting ship with some dumbfire missles. This is all you need, no need to deck the ship for combat anything more, after all it is a throwaway save.

And yes, while griefing in it's most technical form is one player over and over runining the day for other one.. It doesnt have to be one player, it also can be a group. And a group of players using throwaway alpha-strike ships and throwaway CMDRs to destroy other players is borderline that. The throwaway saves thing makes it griefing - they don't play their commanders, they are using every technical resource in game to ruin the day for other players (considering how close Lave is to starting system - mostly noobs)

Like i already said i can see how having throw away ships can be exploitive But having a player or players patrol a sector for kills or loot is not griefing it can be piracy or role playing or trying to manipulate the Factions power in the system. If you choose to keep flying to or participating in that sector knowing its under siege you are not being griefed you are being something else...

 

[TannakaObi]

.... by identifying and systematically removing those players from "normal" play - the matchmaking system could easily be used to facilitate the removal part once the identifications have been made.

Personally I would take that action as a last option. The best way to avoid griefers is to keep an eye out. If someone is blocking you from doing a quest or something then slip into solo just for a little while.

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

Here is a counter-argument to the PvP is griefing camp:

A new player joins the game and wants to play a pirate
They are flying around in a sidewinder performing NPC piracy, but want to do player-piracy.
A PLAYER-bounty hunter interdicts and kills the player-pirate.


This is the exact same as:

A new player joins the game and wants to play a bounty hunter
They are flying around in a sidewinder performing NPC bounty hunting, but want to do player-bounty hunting.
A PLAYER-pirate interdicts and kills the player-bounty hunter.

Even if you're a trader, a lot of trader's have said "I can't wait to make X amount of money so I start putting some towards PvP!". The only difference is that...we dove straight into PvP and you're putting it off until you get into a comfortable position to spend big money without much worry as to what happens.


Here are more grief ideas:
Find a popular station used for trading and make sure you have enough people to use up all the docks to effectively shut down the station for everyone.

Block the entrence to station with type-9s to prevent anyone from going in-and-out. Station's closed due to space flu.

 

[bassman]

I'm confused. How does one restart fresh with a fully specced cobra? I was under the impression anyone restarting would have to be using the basic sidey/eagle and work their way up again?

In any event I agree with the OP, PvP combat is not griefing. Using an exploit to gain an advantage in PvP is not griefing either - it is was it is, use of an exploit.

Being a KS backer I can clear save and start as corbra with a couple of decent grade modules pre installed + 40k cash (or 60k cash if I sell the freagle I also get).

 

[CMDR Byrt Makklin]

Here is a counter-argument to the PvP is griefing camp:

A new player joins the game and wants to play a pirate
They are flying around in a sidewinder performing NPC piracy, but want to do player-piracy.
A PLAYER-bounty hunter interdicts and kills the player-pirate.


This is the exact same as:

A new player joins the game and wants to play a bounty hunter
They are flying around in a sidewinder performing NPC bounty hunting, but want to do player-bounty hunting.
A PLAYER-pirate interdicts and kills the player-bounty hunter.

Even if you're a trader, a lot of trader's have said "I can't wait to make X amount of money so I start putting some towards PvP!". The only difference is that...we dove straight into PvP and you're putting it off until you get into a comfortable position to spend big money without much worry as to what happens.


Here are more grief ideas:
Find a popular station used for trading and make sure you have enough people to use up all the docks to effectively shut down the station for everyone.

Block the entrence to station with type-9s to prevent anyone from going in-and-out. Station's closed due to space flu.

Um, does the player-pirate in your example have a bounty when he is interdicted by a player-bounty hunter? Because my feeling is that everyone in this thread is pretty much OK with that kind of Pvp. Please to not be inventing dah straw man.

 

[Dissentient]

Here are more grief ideas:
Find a popular station used for trading and make sure you have enough people to use up all the docks to effectively shut down the station for everyone.

Block the entrence to station with type-9s to prevent anyone from going in-and-out. Station's closed due to space flu.

And then people switch to solo for a couple of minutes and leave the station completely unhindered

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

Um, does the player-pirate in your example have a bounty when he is interdicted by a player-bounty hunter? Because my feeling is that everyone in this thread is pretty much OK with that kind of Pvp. Please to not be inventing dah straw man.

Thats what I'm saying. You're okay with one instance, but you're not okay with the other even though it's both the same thing. The only difference is yes, the bounty. But the bounty was from NPCs, not players. You're setting a double-standard by saying ONE form of PvP is okay but not the other. With that kind of argument, you would have to just remove piracy from the game altogether because you're essentially saying being a pirate is wrong regardless of what you do and that you should only play a bounty hunter.

So once, again, in an even more simple format:
PvE pirate killed by PvP bounty hunter = OK
PvE bounty hunter killed by PvP pirate = NOT OK

It's not right. It's ether all okay or not at all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You're setting a double-standard by saying ONE form of PvP is okay but not the other. With that kind of argument, you would have to just remove piracy from the game altogether because you're essentially saying being a pirate is wrong regardless of what you do and that you should only play a bounty-hunter.

While it may seem to be a double standard, the fact that piratical endeavours incur bounties (as attacking / destroying clean ships is illegal) indicates that this is a part of the game design - creating targets for the bounty hunters among us.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Um, does the player-pirate in your example have a bounty when he is interdicted by a player-bounty hunter? Because my feeling is that everyone in this thread is pretty much OK with that kind of Pvp. Please to not be inventing dah straw man.

indeed. (One of) the reason(s) why save wipeing and using a starter ship to gank IS tantamount to griefing imo (my last post I said maybe it isnt technically griefing, but having thought about it, I am happy to come off the fence ) is because aside from the lack of investment they have in their character, it also means because they are clean, the whole balancing mechanic of Police and BHers, both AI and Human cannot hunt them down. The AI wont because they see them as clean, and a Human cant becasue they will get a bounty themselves.

This is (yet another) reason why there needs to be a cool down for wiping and starting a new character again.
IMO too many (not all) "PvPers" want to be able to kill humans as a psychopath but dodge any and all repercussions for doing it. The game allows this at the moment, I just hope it gets fixed sooner rather than later to stop it.

Hell, Me personally, I have only had positive experiences with human players in ALL, but that being said, Lave is currently a system I wont be visiting!!!. Just because it has not affected me yet does not mean I dont feel for those who it does affect.

If we are going to have nutters then the game needs to at least hold them accountable. Live by the sword die by the sword and all that.

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

While it may seem to be a double standard, the fact that piratical endeavours incur bounties (as attacking / destroying clean ships is illegal) indicates that this is a part of the game design - creating targets for the bounty hunters among us.

Then no one should complain about being pirated. It's basically the villain vs. superhero scenerio. You can't have one without the other. So people either need to deal with it or FD needs to get rid of it all entirely. That includes PvP in all it's forms.

It's not a strawman. It's the fact that it's either everything or nothing. That means everyone, in any form, is able to be a 'victim' of legit PvP and it is not griefing. The argument people make is that traders, or a lot of players, want to do PvE only, or simply trade. Part of PvE happens to be piracy. But I never complained about getting ganked in a Sidewinder when doing PvE piracy by someone in an Eagle. I never complained about griefing. It was PvP. Such is if I want to pirate players running PvE things.

 

[MartinW]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

I sort of agree. But I think what many have experienced is individuals destroying their ships "for a laugh". This, in a real universe, in a real society that had achieved intergalactic travel, would rarely happen. No real world spacefarer would attack another ship unless it was advantageous to do so. The occasional psychopath might, but not a sane pilot. So the mechanics of this aren't really realistic. How you would correct that though is anybody's guess.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Then no one should complain about being pirated then. It's basically the villain vs. superhero scenerio. You can't have one without the other. So people either need to deal with it or FD needs to get rid of it all entirely. That includes PvP in all it's forms.

It's not a strawman. It's the fact that it's either everything or nothing. That means everyone, in any form, is able to be a 'victim' of legit PvP and it is not griefing.

I dont think people are complaining about getting pirated.

Ganking =/= Piracy

Even then tho, even with out and out ganking, if the game handled said gankers in a way that videos were claimed they would be, then I think many people would be able to live even with some gankers. Its just all too easy to be a prat at the moment with little to no downside (as opposed to Player Piracy which, according to many, is probably the toughest profession in the game right now

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then no one should complain about being pirated then. It's basically the villain vs. superhero scenerio. You can't have one without the other. So people either need to deal with it or FD needs to get rid of it all entirely.

Piracy is a valid role in the game, of course. Destroying ships is not piracy - it's murder.

It is expected that players who have been attacked / destroyed by another player will be able to set a bounty on their attacker - this has been discussed but has yet to be implemented. We'll see which way the discussion swings when that feature is introduced....

 

[Skip Intro]

I sort of agree. But I think what many have experienced is individuals destroying their ships "for a laugh". This, in a real universe, in a real society that had achieved intergalactic travel, would rarely happen. No real world spacefarer would attack another ship unless it was advantageous to do so. The occasional psychopath might, but not a sane pilot. So the mechanics of this aren't really realistic. How you would correct that though is anybody's guess.

This, I'm sorry to inform you, isn't a real univerese. It's a game.

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

Let me give context as to why I used this example then:

I started in LHS3447 and wanted to do piracy and piracy only. I got to a bounty of 50,000cr (exclusively from PvE) before a CMDR in an Eagle jumped me and took me out. But I realized something there in that moment. The idea was, if I wanted to piracy, I couldn't do it in high-populated areas. The reason why is because for whenever I did it, I would, for sure, get jumped on by people. The simple fact is before I even got killed by the Eagle, I was interdicted into the ground by other players who were bounty hunters.

So in a way, noob pirates can very much be griefed since they won't be allowed to play the way they want to play in noob areas. However, at the same time, it is not griefing because that is how the game is designed. So what I did, after I was killed my first and only time by another player, was pack my Sidewinder up and go somewhere else less populated. Now I am out there running PvE piracy things while jumping on players in less-populated areas where I know I'll be less likely to be found. The same thing goes for people who are getting ganked by pirates in more populated systems...it's not griefing, it's simply how the game is.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This, I'm sorry to inform you, isn't a real univerese. It's a game.

its ATTEMPTING to be somewhat of a life in space simulation, it was never advertised as a PvP arena shooter.

 

[darshu]

Piracy is a valid role in the game, of course. Destroying ships is not piracy - it's murder.

It is expected that players who have been attacked / destroyed by another player will be able to set a bounty on their attacker - this has been discussed but has yet to be implemented. We'll see which way the discussion swings when that feature is introduced....

I think that's a great idea i also think it should not be able to be payed off but have a caped amount of credits a player can place with each death.( Increasing with the attackers combat rating) I am not against punishing pirates or murderers. I am against calling their profession, RP life style or gameplay preference(s) a issue to be removed from the game when it was designed to include them.