Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

ED is not a game of combat skills, it's a game of wits. In the event of someone choosing to forgo other modules in favour of cells, as you say, you can wear them down. If you're good enough.
Fair point, but at the moment, your average combat ship has module space to spare. So the only concern at the moment with Shield Cells is energy. ie: You don't really have to forgo anything to own one (or even two)?

And of course by the sounds of it this is maybe one direction FD will be hitting them (increase their energy use), maybe to make it harder to own two or more.

What of course will be interesting if they do increase power usage, is how many people will load up V1.1, only to find their life support not working as now they're using too much energy :)
 
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I think the best solution was already posted here: beef up the shields and hull on bigger ships, beef up integrity of critical internals (power plant, fsd...) and get rid of cells for good. This would work nicely for both pvp and pve. Malfunctioning components would actually matter and targeting anything else but power plant would now be viable tactics.
I had a nice all cmdr encounter at anarchy nav point where 2 ASPs, some cobra/vipers ganged up on python who had bounty on him. We couldn't do anything. I didn't expect us to win but a reasonable scenario would be at least SOME hull damage on that python. It stood there like an impenetrable fortress and just beamed us one by one to death. Watching the ever recharging shields with basically infinite amount of cells at his disposal was a bit sad actually and left me with a bitter taste.

What would be the problem if these shield cells took ages to cool down ready for the next application? eg: 40 seconds! So in a frantic battle you most likely could only use them once? And if you owned multiple ones, the usage time still didn't change? Just meant you had more "ammunition", not more regular use.
 
What would be the problem if these shield cells took ages to cool down ready for the next application? eg: 40 seconds! So in a frantic battle you most likely could only use them once? And if you owned multiple ones, the usage time still didn't change? Just meant you had more "ammunition", not more regular use.

That's pretty much the way WoW handles health potions (seeing as that analogy has been used in this thread before) - sure you can heal yourself instantly with one button, but you can't spam it - usually one or maximum two per battle. If SCBs have to stay, maybe that's the way to go...?
 
I posted early in this thread imagining the topic was relatively uncontroversial(!) "Of course shield cells are OP" I thought....

57 pages later it seems a lot of people like them and seem to want to keep them. Now I've read about 15 of these pages and it does seem mostly like the Shield Cell-lovers are defending a cherished play style, rather then engaging with the negative effects these modules are having on PvP. They may not be PvP players, they may hate PvP, and if that's the case then fair enough. They want the game to be a certain way, nothing wrong with that.

If Elite: D was PvE only then SCB's would be a good way of making players feel more godlike, but FD decided it would be more fun to introduce PvP, and the requirements of PvP are that one play style cannot dominate the others. Blizzard, a company that you may agree knows a thing or two about MMO's and play balance, dropped the health-potion mechanic from Diablo II when moving to Diablo III, because it health potions are a boring feature that cheapens the combat mechanic. SCB's are health potions...

In short, SCB's have the effect of reducing PvP, and it has worked in my case. PB and Beta1 had rather fun PvP, but the small amount I have indulged in since release has been very samey. Even taking SuBSynk's early comments into account, you still have to go with a very specific loadout to defeat stacked SCB's, so now it's a case of pure PvP'ers can still engage other players, the rest of us had better just run. I think this is boring.
 
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Dogmeat - fully agree, they switched to a cooldown-based potion in D3 which is fine by me as it moved from being your main way of staying alive to an emergency-use item. I can't imagine PvP in something like WoW if someone was able to use 10-15 health potions one after another...

Cooldown based SCB would be easy to work into lore - something like "delivers a quick burst of energy to shield capacitors, but can only do it once every X seconds or you risk burning them out" (could even ALLOW using within cooldown for real emergency but with risk of damaging your ship instead).
 
Please, people, despite the thread having been started with the premise of PvP, SCBs are equally relevant to PvE, where in principle the same pros and cons apply. Reducing it to a concern only of some population of players doing lots of PvP is a (possibly unintentional) strawman.
 
Well, indestructable pythons are still staying even after the nerf. 5 sec spooling means they are to be used right after the second ring collapses and it's still the same thing.
Cost doesn't mean anything. Hell even I shoot torpedoes for fun when I get jumped by harmless sidey when I trade now and then. Since I can make 2.4m/hour in t7 I don't really care whether single cell costs 100cr or 5000cr.
Power draw... well again. I don't really care. A single higher class csb is more than enough for your average pvp encounter.

Basically the only thing this will achieve is an indirect nerf to bounty hunting. Less cells = less time at nav point before resupplying + lesser profit. So if it stays like this, not only pvpers but now even pve bounty hunters are just going to be more annoyed. PVP arsenal will still be limited to high thermic burst, kinetic weapons remaining borderline useless except maybe rocket spam.
 
Please, people, despite the thread having been started with the premise of PvP, SCBs are equally relevant to PvE, where in principle the same pros and cons apply. Reducing it to a concern only of some population of players doing lots of PvP is a (possibly unintentional) strawman.

The problem is that not all PvE players are as enlightened as yourself - they like the NPC/player asymmetry that shield cells bring and so are content with the status quo. I guess if NPCs were generally stuffed to gills with cells we see a lot more "engagement" in this issue by PVEers.
 
Fair point, but at the moment, your average combat ship has module space to spare. So the only concern at the moment with Shield Cells is energy. ie: You don't really have to forgo anything to own one (or even two)?

And of course by the sounds of it this is maybe one direction FD will be hitting them (increase their energy use), maybe to make it harder to own two or more.

considering how you'll only have active one at a time since having more will only use them simultaneously, it's a moot point and again, only makes the combat gap between the big multirole ships and small combat centric ones even smaller (and it already was way too small for comfort. or believability. or balance. or common sense)
 
I posted early in this thread imagining the topic was relatively uncontroversial(!) "Of course shield cells are OP" I thought....

57 pages later it seems a lot of people like them and seem to want to keep them. Now I've read about 15 of these pages and it does seem mostly like the Shield Cell-lovers are defending a cherished play style, rather then engaging with the negative effects these modules are having on PvP. They may not be PvP players, they may hate PvP, and if that's the case then fair enough. They want the game to be a certain way, nothing wrong with that.

If Elite: D was PvE only then SCB's would be a good way of making players feel more godlike, but FD decided it would be more fun to introduce PvP, and the requirements of PvP are that one play style cannot dominate the others. Blizzard, a company that you may agree knows a thing or two about MMO's and play balance, dropped the health-potion mechanic from Diablo II when moving to Diablo III, because it health potions are a boring feature that cheapens the combat mechanic. SCB's are health potions...

In short, SCB's have the effect of reducing PvP, and it has worked in my case. PB and Beta1 had rather fun PvP, but the small amount I have indulged in since release has been very samey. Even taking SuBSynk's early comments into account, you still have to go with a very specific loadout to defeat stacked SCB's, so now it's a case of pure PvP'ers can still engage other players, the rest of us had better just run. I think this is boring.

I think they are awful for PvE as well. It makes the game Elite:Not Dangerous.

The playstyle seems a lot like my 10 year old sons. We were playing minecraft together, which is a easy enough game on survival, but he likes creative. I told him "daddy likes a challange" his response was "I like to win easy."

I'd hate to either gimp myself on purpose to make PvE interesting or worse if they were to start to "balance" around shield cells.
 
Basically the only thing this will achieve is an indirect nerf to bounty hunting. Less cells = less time at nav point before resupplying + lesser profit. So if it stays like this, not only pvpers but now even pve bounty hunters are just going to be more annoyed.

I play solo in a Cobra without shield cells, never had an issue with PvE bounty hunting. I won't bother trying to solo an Anaconda without them, any other NPC ship is not an issue. I only ever leave the Nav point when I run out of multicannon ammo or run out of targets and decide to go and do something else rather than waiting for some new ones to spawn.

I've only ever seen one Anaconda that opened up on me without anyone else joining in before I had to turn tail and run as well.
 
Basically the only thing this will achieve is an indirect nerf to bounty hunting. Less cells = less time at nav point before resupplying + lesser profit. So if it stays like this, not only pvpers but now even pve bounty hunters are just going to be more annoyed. PVP arsenal will still be limited to high thermic burst, kinetic weapons remaining borderline useless except maybe rocket spam.

It would nerf only the anaconda missions, which are really pretty horribly designed placeholder style missions. Beating an elite anaconda with a viper spamming shield cells is hardly a good design.
 
Well, indestructable pythons are still staying even after the nerf. 5 sec spooling means they are to be used right after the second ring collapses and it's still the same thing.
Cost doesn't mean anything. Hell even I shoot torpedoes for fun when I get jumped by harmless sidey when I trade now and then. Since I can make 2.4m/hour in t7 I don't really care whether single cell costs 100cr or 5000cr.
Power draw... well again. I don't really care. A single higher class csb is more than enough for your average pvp encounter.

Basically the only thing this will achieve is an indirect nerf to bounty hunting. Less cells = less time at nav point before resupplying + lesser profit. So if it stays like this, not only pvpers but now even pve bounty hunters are just going to be more annoyed. PVP arsenal will still be limited to high thermic burst, kinetic weapons remaining borderline useless except maybe rocket spam.

pretty much this. plus, it will make the gap between small and big ships even bigger, resulting in even more boring grinding for anyone who wants to have a chance in combat. hilarious how people think these nerfs to shield cells would fix anything
 
The problem is that not all PvE players are as enlightened as yourself - they like the NPC/player asymmetry that shield cells bring and so are content with the status quo. I guess if NPCs were generally stuffed to gills with cells we see a lot more "engagement" in this issue by PVEers.

I like not needing shield cells because I play solo and don't try and take down Anacondas on my own in my Cobra.

If NPCs started carrying them routinely in solo so they'd become a necessity for PvE combat then I would indeed be fuming - there would essentially be no small mulit-purpose ships anymore.

I mostly explore with a bit of bounty hunting and trading along the way - if shield cells became a requirement for fighting NPCs successfully as well then I'd need to decide whether at any point in time I was exploring with trading (install cargo racks) or exploring with bounty hunting (install shield cells).

Right now, as a solo player, I'd happily see them dropped altogether (although in that case some route for naval progression that doesn't involve solo-ing an Anaconda might be needed or more high profile if it is there and I've not seen it yet).
 
Fair point, but at the moment, your average combat ship has module space to spare. So the only concern at the moment with Shield Cells is energy. ie: You don't really have to forgo anything to own one (or even two)?

And of course by the sounds of it this is maybe one direction FD will be hitting them (increase their energy use), maybe to make it harder to own two or more.

What of course will be interesting if they do increase power usage, is how many people will load up V1.1, only to find their life support not working as now they're using too much energy :)

It depends what you're doing. I have to give up scanners as a trader and that cuts me off from exploration income. Or extra cargo space. There's always trade offs. And in a game with a wide range of player ages it makes little sense to reduce combat to a twitch skill. It has to be make people work for the kill and it has to give less able players who have the wit, a means to live to fight another day.

If you just beef up hulls you'll just have people complaining that armour is too efficient. In the end I guess it's philosophy. I like long involved tactical combat with scope for weapons choice, tactical sub-system targetting, wearing down of shield cells, complex power management etc. Naval combat not fighter aircraft. And if most engagements end with one party limping away then that's fine.

With wings and better grouping we'll have ways of dealing with armoured turtles.

For me this suits a wider customer range and you do see this in other MMO's. Everything I play or have played from Star Trek Online, through LOTRO to Elder Scrolls and ArcheAge have insta-heal mechanics. And most have a vocal PvP element who find it inconvenient.

Nothing will kill Open quicker than making combat less survivable, particularly for traders and that's the risk too much emphasis on PvP runs.
 
It depends what you're doing. I have to give up scanners as a trader and that cuts me off from exploration income. Or extra cargo space. There's always trade offs. And in a game with a wide range of player ages it makes little sense to reduce combat to a twitch skill. It has to be make people work for the kill and it has to give less able players who have the wit, a means to live to fight another day.

If you just beef up hulls you'll just have people complaining that armour is too efficient. In the end I guess it's philosophy. I like long involved tactical combat with scope for weapons choice, tactical sub-system targetting, wearing down of shield cells, complex power management etc. Naval combat not fighter aircraft. And if most engagements end with one party limping away then that's fine.

With wings and better grouping we'll have ways of dealing with armoured turtles.

For me this suits a wider customer range and you do see this in other MMO's. Everything I play or have played from Star Trek Online, through LOTRO to Elder Scrolls and ArcheAge have insta-heal mechanics. And most have a vocal PvP element who find it inconvenient.

Nothing will kill Open quicker than making combat less survivable, particularly for traders and that's the risk too much emphasis on PvP runs.

Understood, but with someone going into combat, I'd currently suggest they generally have module space to spare, as they're not interested in cargo and the like. So carrying two shield cells is no issue at all. Indeed even carrying three? Hence we get into the realms of shield cell wars, which is where this thread started :)

I think shield cells should be limited so it doesn't matter if you own one or more, the rate at which you can deploy the cells is the same. Your power distributer/shields can't take it any more frequently. If you want to carry more than one unit so you can deply them longer fine... But it won't let you deploy them more often.
 
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That's the whole point of military technological development. Hence the crossbow, hence better armour, hence repeating rifles, hence gatling guns, hence fire and forget missiles. Etc.
Of course, but the thing with technological development is that soon after someone invents a uberweapon, effective countermeasures are also invented - bulletproof vests, chaffs/ECMs, etc. In this case there is really nothing to counter the SCBs with. If there, for example, was a huge anti-shield gun that would collapse a shield in a single shot, while having some equally huge tradeoffs (super-slow rate of fire, power consumption, weight, etc), then we could say that "hey, if you want to effectively fight SCB spammers - get the SuperAntiShieldGun and stop whining", and that would be perfectly fine.

ED is not a game of combat skills, it's a game of wits. In the event of someone choosing to forgo other modules in favour of cells, as you say, you can wear them down. If you're good enough. You not wanting to wear them down is another matter entirely, your feeling that a player so skilled as yourself being made to do that is somehow 'unfair' notwithstanding.
I would agree, if the tradeoffs of using multiple SCBs were significant. Currently, when an ASP fills all module slots with SCBs and gets 42 (!) shield charges, the only thing it loses is the cargo space, which is nothing, compared to the benefits - most players have a separate ship for trading anyway. Also, the point of my post was not that "I'm the best, but can't kill anyone because noobs spam SCBs", it was that SCBs are imbalanced. ED, no matter how cool, is a game, so it SHOULD have balance to be a GOOD game.

I see no reason why 'skill' as you define it should take precedent over wit (or patience) or indeed, having deep pockets to afford to fly in a heavily armoured and protected ship.
Like I said, ED is a game, and good games tend to be balanced. Imagine that SCBs are gone, for a moment. Would that mean that a medium-skilled player on a heavier bigger ship (for instance, a Python) would ALWAYS lose to a "madskilled" player on a smaller ship (say, a Cobra)? Of course not, because larger ships would still be better armed, armored, shielded, etc. However, the guy on the Cobra would get at least SOME slim chance of defeating a fatter Python, if he's a better pilot, and given some luck. The smaller ship would still lose most of the time, because the bigger one is superior, but the gap wouldn't be as huge as it is now. Some people think that there SHOULD be a huge gap - say, a Cobra shouldn't even be able to make a dent in a Anaconda or Python, but I think it's ridiculous - even in our days, a bigger-sized tank/plane/ship/whatever doesn't guarantee that its armor will be impenetrable to something smaller.

tl;dr;
In short, as I see it, the combat rating of a ship is currently very LINEAR: a bigger ship is always harder to kill with anything smaller than itself. I think that it should be NON-LINEAR: a bigger better equipped ship should offer better defense and firepower, BUT should still be somewhat vulnerable to SOME tactics/builds of smaller ships. If the situation is not changed, nobody will fly smaller ships end-game, simply because "if you can afford a Anaconda, there is no reason NOT to buy it", and that kind of mechanics suck.
 
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Nothing will kill Open quicker than making combat less survivable, particularly for traders and that's the risk too much emphasis on PvP runs.

Play EvE then ;)

Anyone that fragile in open is going to go solo after their first "unjust" pvp death where they lost 1 million in their unupgraded hauler. Elite needs a lot of changes to how pvp and pve works, but shield cells are an obvious badly implemented idea.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
tl;dr;
In short, as I see it, the combat rating of a ship is currently very LINEAR: a bigger ship is always harder to kill with anything smaller than itself. I think that it should be NON-LINEAR: a bigger better equipped ship should offer better defense and firepower, BUT should still be somewhat vulnerable to at least some tactics/builds of smaller ships. If the situation is not changed, nobody will fly smaller ships end-game, simply because "if you can afford a Anaconda, there is no reason NOT to buy it", and that kind of mechanics suck.

It could swing the other way to the extent that nobody would fly the Anaconda because there is a sub 1M Cr. ship / loadout that will almost always destroy it in the hands of a competent pilot.
 
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Please, people, despite the thread having been started with the premise of PvP, SCBs are equally relevant to PvE, where in principle the same pros and cons apply. Reducing it to a concern only of some population of players doing lots of PvP is a (possibly unintentional) strawman.

Well said Mephane. Elite's core gameplay is PvE, but it's also not supposed to be separate or split. The NPCs are a bit rubbish right now, but it's not supposed to work so that you farm the NPCs with zero risk, and then equip your PvP gear "for the real fights". The game is nothing like that.
 
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