Recent answers = "More in the coming weeks"

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Tar Stone

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The last comment I saw from Michael on the DDA is that it was never set in stone and was always just a guideline or wish list.

There was a tremendous amount of community work involved in it.

Edit - and while Sandro talks about their own unseen 'list of cool stuff', the DDA is never mentioned....
 
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The last comment I saw from Michael on the DDA is that it was never set in stone and was always just a guideline or wish list.

There was a tremendous amount of community work involved in it.

I have also seen Mike Evans (I think it was him) say the same thing recently.

Funny how for the entirety of the pre-release development, Frontier never once said that. They never even implied it.
 
IMO FD went from a what I perceived as an "indie" feel good vibe to full on EA rubbish. There's a long list of outright lies, denial, shady (at best) and just "keep quiet" and it'll go away crap I never expected from FD. It's not about dates, roadmaps or "secret future information" it's about being honest with your customers.

The whole "offline" thing was the start of what IMO was the beginning of it. Let's pretend offline is impossible and doesn't fit with David's vision of a "rich gaming experience". Ok, I can choke that down, even though I know its rubbish as "offline" wasn't big on my personal list of must haves, I can swallow that. What I choked on was the denial flippant way David blew it off in several interviews. The next thing was the way refund request were handled. It was and still is ongoing and IMO is dirty sleazy greedy rubbish. It's just wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.

Then there's the DDF/DDA and what the vast majority of us thought was "finalized" design turned into "a neat wishlist of things we never promised would be in the game but, decided to talk about for fun" so to speak. So, the DDA is out the window and barebones features were implemented so at least (for example mining) was "in the game" at release and now apparently that was always the plan. Rubbish.

How about the big premiere event? We all remember the "I bring friends" staged rubbish FD put on. If you've never played the game one would think "Hey! ED has great multiplayer/coop gameplay!" but, as we all know, that's not the case. It may be possible but it certainly isn't like FD portrayed it, not even close.

About that "release trailer". What a bad joke and classic rubbish, ties in nicely with the "I bring friends" rubbish as both are misleading at best.

Billionaregate is another blunder that is just total amatuer rubbish. Who decides these things? I have no issue with billionaires but, it was just a poor decision in a long list of stupid calls.

How about that "rich" gameplay offline was scrapped for? Guess what? It's not there. It's broken and doesn't work and even when/if it's fixed, IMO, it's hardly "rich" or justification to pull offline. The whole "background simulator" is a mess and hasn't to date worked correctly.

Ships. Where are they? How about the 25 (we'll forgo the other 5) ships? We have half what was promised after two years.

Missions are a handful of rinse and repeat tasks that I'm sure will grow and become better but, if missions are "complete" them I'm a monkey's uncle.

I could go on and on but, lets just do a quick check of what isn't complete.

1. Multiplayer/coop? Nope
2. Ships? Nope
3. "Background simulator"? Nope
4. Navigation? Nope
5. Weapons? Nope
6. Modules? Nope
7. Anything? Nope

Was this the plan all along? NOPE

I understand that adding content, features above what was supposed to be in the release is normal for some games but, these are things that were supposed to in the game at release but, has turned into "the plan all along". No, no it wasn't "the plan" all along. It was a financial decision to maximize profit and beat the glut of new space games that's already released and to be released over the next couple years. Surprisingly. I love the game and I'm ok with spoon fed updates to get the game where it was supposed to be at release. What I'm not ok with is the rubbish spin that magically made this "plan all along". It's just simply not true and FD knows it. So stop blowing smoke up our butts telling it is.

IMO, if FD had been honest, I'd be ok but, again IMO, FD is less than honest and playing the "cover our butt" games. I'd have so much more respect for FD if they had just told the truth. Something like the following"

"In order to continue developing the game it became necessary to release it in an incomplete form above and beyond what the normal "incomplete" means for a game. In this case incomplete entails missing and/or barebones features, content and mechanics. We apologize but, feel we made the right choice to ensure the continued growth and development of this amazing game."

Insteads, again IMO, we got something like this:

"Elite: Dangerous is a finished complete game. We never promised anything, the Kickstarter and DDF/DDA was a wish list of neat discussions and never meant as a design document or guideline, you weren't promised anything and should have known that things implied as supposed to be in the game were just wishful thinking on our part. Our marketing was creative visions of what's in our heads and does not reflect actual gameplay or features, we like to call it "mood pieces". MMO does not mean what has become the standard understanding of gamers across the world, it just means you may see other players from time to time on your "island". "

"However, now that you've purchased the game, we will sell you ship "skins" and other rubbish trinkets to maybe get the game where we implied (never promised) the game would be when you purchased it. We want to stress that we never have promised anything and actively avoid boxing ourselves into a corner we can't get out of by saying "we never promised that". We may (in the coming weeks) tell you what we intend or would like to do with the game but, we don't know yet so you'll have to be content with "in the coming weeks". As far as your Kickstarter/backer rewards, we never said "when" (except those couple of times we lied) the rewards are coming so, you'll have to wait with no information until we get our act together after recovering from this mess of a "release" we've created is under control and we can deal with it. Remember, now that the finished release is out we will continue to work towards a "release" version of the game but, can't promise that'll ever happen."

"It's not our fault some of you took what we implied as fact, shame on you for thinking that but, we will have a few more contests and "mood pieces" plastered incoherently in pieces across various social media sites that you'll need to hunt for the results to weeks after it was supposed to be over."

That's how I feel right now anyway. Do I like the game? No, I love the game. Will I continue to play it? Maybe, if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth. What I would absolutely love though is an end to the PR cover our butts spin FD has been putting out and instead an open, honest and COMPLETE discussion about the current mess ED is in with some kind of "plan" moving forward that's different than what the last few months has been. There's been entirely too many bad decisions, spins. slips and just plain stupid amatuer mistakes that's somehow no one's fault except our's, the customers.

I feel there's been a whole lot of covering of butts and way too little open and honest answers to obvious questions. Continued development of ED was always the plan but, NOT LIKE THIS. If anyone at FD claims that releasing ED in the state it was in on Dec. 16th was "always the plan" is a liar and/or an idiot. The "plan" as it was implied (never promised) was a COMPLETE game with paid expansions down the road. It was not "planned" to be rushed in the ninth hour to get it out the door in order to "complete" it "in the coming weeks, months or years". I know a game is "never finished" but, that's just a play on words (covering of butts) and a pee poor PR spin.

If we could just get a simple "We had to get it out the door to be able to keep realising our dream" or "Hey, we screwed up, we're sorry" or something similar to that I'd request this thread be closed and/or deleted but, apparently what I believe is the truth is like pulling hen's teeth, it just isn't going to happen. FD, is that so hard? Wouldn't it save time, effort and money just "coming clean"?

That's how I feel right now anyway and that's about all I have to say at the moment.

[edit] I lied, I have more. I should state that FD has done a lot of what I feel is good things, some are great. My issue is with "management" NOT the entire dev team and should not be taken as a slam against the "little people" at FD. I'm sure those FD employees unfortunate enough to read the forum has had a few cringe worthy reactions similar to mine on more than a few occasions.




This ^ ...white knighters need to be publicly flogged, with flogs.
 
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soon as FD post about their 'wall of crazy' I and I suspect everyone else is outta here ;)

open, clear, concise, transparent, frequent communication. things will change, say when they do, things will get dropped, say when they do, dont hide behind bull crap, be up front and this player base will support ED for years. treat the playerbase like mushrooms and they will all be playing SC (if it ever launches)
 
25 ships were promised at release, not 30.
This was changed to 30 eventually because they acknowledged they wouldn't make the 25 target by release.
The 5 additional "free" ships were in compensation for missing the deadline for the 25 ships.

They didn't really make it clear that they would miss the 25 target by so much, but since this is one of the few things that was admitted as not being ready i time, and there is so much else, it should be taken as meaning they are very very far behind schedule on this.

Sorry Fergal, but unless you can produce a statement that supports 25 ships at launch, it's supposition, not fact. I quoted the reference from the KS regarding the additional 10 ships (above the initial 15 intended), it only stated there that there would be another 10 ships (making 25 in total) not that they would all be ready for release. It's the players interpretation and repetition by players that creates that myth.

I'm sure if FD could have had 25 ships ready at release, they would have done, but they were never obliged to do so. Regarding the 5 extra ships (making 30), in the newsletter (#49) where this announcement was made, there was no reference to this being compensation for not having 25 ships at release. If anything, as it coincided with the announcement of no-offline mode, it could be construed as an apology for that - but that would be purely conjecture on my part.

It is always the issue with forums that those participating take commentary and make it fact, they forget the context of a conversation or paraphrase a message and that is repeated. I've seen this on many topics on these forums and I imagine it's why those whose comments are taken most seriously (Developers) are so careful about how they word their responses. It doesn't matter of course, because people will believe what they want to not what they're told.

I also imagine this is part of the reason why developers are evasive or vague in responses, I imagine it is difficult to be too effusive in one's response as a developer when your every word and nuance is going to be analysed and then expounded as gospel. It does make it frustrating for those people (like Sanderson) who are sensible enough not to be waving a pitchfork and torch around and just want some straight answers - not to hound FD if something doesn't come to fruition, but just be reassured about what is going on.
 
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Tar Stone

Banned
I think the number of ships at launch is the least of the missing game features and is hardly worth arguing over. We know we'll get ships, we don't know we'll get persistent NPCs or the other 60% of the DDA.
 
I think the number of ships at launch is the least of the missing game features and is hardly worth arguing over. We know we'll get ships, we don't know we'll get persistent NPCs or the other 60% of the DDA.

What kind of missing game features(that are proven or atleast highly likely to be) that were promised at launch are missing?(this is not a sarcastic question,but a honest one) and i'm not talking about features that were annouced as comming after release,if they were promised after the game was released it's a feature to be implemented(instead of "missing" as in promised to be ingame on launch) and this a huge diffrence to me.
 
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The day we don't have the expectation of mysterious 'more coming' is the day that my joy in this game dies a little.

Then.... I'll fire up the Shady Lady and go exploring.
 
What kind of missing game features(that are proven or atleast highly likely to be) that were promised at launch are missing?(this is not a sarcastic question,but a honest one) and i'm not talking about features that were annouced as comming after release,if they were promised after the game was released it's a feature to be implemented(instead of "missing" as in promised to be ingame on launch) and this a huge diffrence to me.

A functioning background simulation for one.
 
A functioning background simulation for one.

A non-functioning background simulation still means there is background simulation(this doesn't make it right in anyway to be not functioning ofcourse even though bugs should be expected is such a hopefully complex system) but i have a question now,is there proof to tell if the background simulation is not working or maybe even currently not active?
 
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A non-functioning background simulation still means there is background simulation(this doesn't make it right in anyway to be not functioning ofcourse even though bugs should be expected is such a hopefully complex system) but i have a question now,is there proof to tell if the background simulation is not working or maybe even currently not active?

Yes, dozens of threads with lots of proof. They are pretty easy to find if you are interested in seeing what they have to say. :)
 
See,

Here's the thing from my point of view. What I bought around christmas was a modern version of the game I played on the BBC and C64 back in the eighties and this is what I got with a few more bells and whistles on it. I know some people have been disappointed by the lack of MP functionality, but if you take it from the perspective that it is modern version of elite 1984 with a well designed framework to add extra functionality to it (that FDev will do), it's not as doom and gloom as you may think.

Really, give this game some time. It has incredible potential and I can't wait to see what FDev will do with it. That's the other thing, very few gaming companies will reveal their detailed plans for a platform like this. For 2 reasons: Firstly, they'll be hounded by the user base when they announce certain features (pros and cons debate/trash talk). Secondly, they'll be hounded by the same people to give a release date for those features. They will only announce stuff when it's ready for beta and then they won't give a release date. Just because this is a kickstarter does not mean that the backers have a say in what should and should not be in the game. FDev will make those decisions and you will just have to deal with them.

I honestly thought that the ED forum and user base would be different. Maybe slightly older and a bit more mature. But this game has a community just as toxic as any other game I've played. So, I'm grand with FDev doing what they're doing. In fact I find them a little more willing than other companies to engage their user base. Unfortunately, that willingness will probably disappear with time as they get more disillusioned with the members.

+1 ... exactly how I feel. Nothing to add to this, except some rep.
 
I honestly thought that the ED forum and user base would be different. Maybe slightly older and a bit more mature. But this game has a community just as toxic as any other game I've played. So, I'm grand with FDev doing what they're doing. In fact I find them a little more willing than other companies to engage their user base. Unfortunately, that willingness will probably disappear with time as they get more disillusioned with the members.

Ironically whilst the forums do have a lot of negativity, that has only been present on its current levels since 16 December. There are still a lot of decent posts here, even though they may be buried.
 
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Yes, dozens of threads with lots of proof. They are pretty easy to find if you are interested in seeing what they have to say. :)

Hmm okay,i will have a read about it later,so i will take you'r work for now on the background simulation for now. However as i already said Bugs and maybe even simulation breaking bugs should be expected,and as i said a post earlier it doesn't make it right in anyway,but on one thing so far i can agree with everyone,That the Devs should maybe be more open,Don't get me wrong i don't want them to tell me everything they are going to or how every little thing is caluculated, but maybe they should just straight out tell us if the Background Simulation for example is currently not working or inactive, i think it's best to stand up to your mistakes even if it sucks to admit it,however i would give a Dev who stands behide his mistakes and admit it's his fault alot more Support and understanding, then the current silence we are getting.

(Also i am sorry about my english)
 
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Tar Stone

Banned
Darksider - persistent NPCs and something replacing the placeholder USS mechanic. Those are the two biggies for me. Can't get an answer on either of these, holding out for them being mentioned in the roadmap. It's likely that persistent tier 1&2 NPCs specced in the DDA can't be done for networking reasons.

It's not that they were absent at launch, it's that they seem to be forgotten about entirely, that's the issue.
 
> toxic

There's plenty civil and constructive threads/posts. There'll always be the alternative kind and the lack of thinking usually associated with those posts are just prime meat for everyone to pile in on.

Most people have the common sense to see past "just because there's more negativity on here, it must be true". I don't see any sense in thinking we're being swept along, as a community, by it.

Simply ignore the crap (including this post since it's OT) and complement what you find useful.
 
See,

Here's the thing from my point of view. What I bought around christmas was a modern version of the game I played on the BBC and C64 back in the eighties and this is what I got with a few more bells and whistles on it. I know some people have been disappointed by the lack of MP functionality, but if you take it from the perspective that it is modern version of elite 1984 with a well designed framework to add extra functionality to it (that FDev will do), it's not as doom and gloom as you may think.

Really, give this game some time. It has incredible potential and I can't wait to see what FDev will do with it. That's the other thing, very few gaming companies will reveal their detailed plans for a platform like this. For 2 reasons: Firstly, they'll be hounded by the user base when they announce certain features (pros and cons debate/trash talk). Secondly, they'll be hounded by the same people to give a release date for those features. They will only announce stuff when it's ready for beta and then they won't give a release date. Just because this is a kickstarter does not mean that the backers have a say in what should and should not be in the game. FDev will make those decisions and you will just have to deal with them.

I honestly thought that the ED forum and user base would be different. Maybe slightly older and a bit more mature. But this game has a community just as toxic as any other game I've played. So, I'm grand with FDev doing what they're doing. In fact I find them a little more willing than other companies to engage their user base. Unfortunately, that willingness will probably disappear with time as they get more disillusioned with the members.

Yours is a perfectly reasonable attitude to have. However, one doesn't typically get into game development (especially open, crowdfunded game development) unless your skin is thick enough to handle the feedback - feedback that was asked for, at least in the beginning - to the point of creating a Design Discussion Forum. Even major changes were made in regard to that feedback. Granted, as with any feedback on a public forum, you need to be able to separate the wheat from an abundance of chaff, but FD are certainly able to do so.

The thing is, you're likely not to get exactly what you want unless you ask for it. What you ask for may be met with excitement, disinterest, or even disgust - but you'll never know unless you ask. Not to speak for the OP, but to me he seems concerned that in terms of communication and acceptance of feedback, what was once met with excitement seems to him and others to be trending the other way. If he seems upset, it's because he's very passionate about this game and he wants to see it - and the company making it - succeed (he, like me, has been around since alpha - and he, like me, is one of the biggest fans of this effort you'll find.) Continuous open communication will go a long way toward making success a trend.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: criticism, as long as it is constructive, can be a very valuable tool. Especially for the ones receiving the feedback.
 
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Darksider - persistent NPCs and something replacing the placeholder USS mechanic. Those are the two biggies for me. Can't get an answer on either of these, holding out for them being mentioned in the roadmap. It's likely that persistent tier 1&2 NPCs specced in the DDA can't be done for networking reasons.

It's not that they were absent at launch, it's that they seem to be forgotten about entirely, that's the issue.

Ahh, Ok, then i am very sorry for twisting your words, also i have to agree with the USS mechanic,While i do think they make somewhat sense in the hunting missions(and sometimes the scavenging missions,but sometimes not(Some missions text reads that they have "destroyed" a convoy carrying X,but didn't mark the location or something is just strange) i stll think they should be a better way then the USS mechanic.
 
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That is a road map, as in they have mapped out their first two major releases this year. Certainly better than them doing what a lot of companies do is release road maps 12 months ahead and then up meeting none of the targets on that road maps.

No offense intended but remind me never to get in a vehicle with this chap as the navigator.

"So we know where we are going then?"

"Yea, straight on then right"

"Yea, I know the way to the motorway, I meant after that?"

"Straight on then right. That's all I got."


In all seriousness, though, the OP has a well thought through point and has presented it in a most constructive manner. It is almost the epitome of constructive feedback. If we could reasonably expect the devs to respond directly to any thread on this board it would be this one, according to all the rules and suggestions about how to supply constructive criticism.
 
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