The design archive. Maybe not really focused, but 60%/40%.
Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.
- Thread starter KazumaKat
- Start date
Can you link me to this? I honestly don't remember this game ever having a PVP focus, no matter the percentage. I know it had a multiplayer focus but I never got from the developer interviews or write-ups before I bought into beta that this was supposed to have a large chunk (that 40%) devoted to PVP. Please note that I see MP and PVP as different aspects.
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I am a Viper pilot and bounty hunter. The limited hardpoint and internal mounts, coupled with the very limited maximum power available with an A rated power plant, means I have to juggle components and systems to match both my playing style and the task at hand.
Do I want to chase down bad guys? It's an FSD interdictor. Do I want to go toe-to-toe with an Elite Anaconda? I need that Shield Cell Bank. What I never have is a Basic Discovery Scanner, so some star systems are still a mystery to me.
I enjoy the ability to change my load out based on what I'm trying to achieve, and I don't think it adversely affects my enjoyment of the game. I know that all things will be tweaked over time, but I would like to just state to Sandro that I use the Shield Cell Bank between 0 and 3 times when I take down an Elite Anaconda, depending on how aggressively I can stay on the six of the tango. I may have to adjust my play style to boost out of range of the Annie before I take it down if you extend the cooldown on the SCBs more, and I may have to spend more to buy additional cells - but please don't make the power consumption so high that it means a Viper cannot use one.
so, basically, with the change, it costs mroe to run it on most ships, other than that no real change, the only thing thats REALLY getting nerfed is that if the power draw is going up, its just ONE MORE THING, you cant fit on a viper, most ships have the ability to fit most if not all A, and still have plenty of mass/power left over for peripherals, a Viper you can fit to be energy efficient and still be trying to find room to squeeze on the internals and utilities.
so good work, Viper is nerfed again, which will only result in MORE people complaining about the python being "overpowered", and unfortuneately with this nerf theyll be right. but if the viper is in a "good place" then we can assume every ship will be receiving as big of a nerf as possible to make fitting it "a choice" like with the viper
Well, that sucks. It looks like this will not fix any of the problems with SCB's.
Just a plain nerf isn't right IMO. We can discuss if they are OP or not, but in my opinion the main problem isn't that - it's how the SCB's themselves work, and you can't fix that by nerfing them.You fix that by changing how they work.
A weaker (or useless) shield potion is still a shield potion...
Beating an Elite _anything_ should be a challenge. The Elite are the best of the best. If they are in a sidewinder for some reason, it should be an ultra pimped ride, and they will not get drawn into a fight with an asp in that thing.
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Exactly. Ships need to be balanced for roles and niches, not as progression levels.
Even the Anaconda flies like a fighter, and is surprisngly fragile to "balance" this. It doesn't have the feeling of ponderous mass and stayng power it should.
And I think that's great! Pirate gangs ambushing a large ship with a whole bunch of small rust-buckets, losing half of the gang in the process - that's absolute gold!
Ganging up on an Anaconda with a half a dozen eagles and sidewinders sounds epic! That is the sort of fight that should last minutes, without any shield cells. The small ships should be darting in and out, trying to find unguarded sides of the behemoth, and targetting it's surface features. Hitting the weapon mounts should be what we do, not just target the engines for a while, and leave the Anaconda spinning helplessly with almost all of it's hull intact, or even worse, blowing up it's reactor with small caliber weapons as if it's exposed on the outer hull.
an unsupported frigate? it should be damn easy when you can choose the exact moment of engagement so that you can start attacking when you're at the blind spot and keep there until it's dead. it's just that (whether it's a bug or feature) sometimes those AI anacondas turn around like a viper and then you're dead because the game said so. SCBs provide a "get out of jail free card" for such scenarios. seriously, taking down cap ships alone in a fighter is easy in almost any game when you know the blindspot(s) and can just sit there and keep firing until it's dead or you quit out of boredom because it will never out-turn you (as it damn should).
hell, even IRL, a lone fighter or attack helicopter could likely destroy or massively cripple even a carrier or destroyer if a scenario like the ED assassination missions were to be replicated. hopefully Wings will also add the option to hire AI bodyguards so that you can protect your precious 'conda from players running circles around you, but making small cheap capships (remember the 'conda and python are basically glorified freighters that are used a small capships only by small [and likely on a budget] navies)... speaking of capships, i hope the factions will get more than the 1 lone cruiser each to make those scenarios a little bit more believable with some proper battlegroups
problem is that you cannot (or at least it's extremely difficult) balance around both, a change that makes something good in PvE will likely make it OP in PvP or the other way around (at least in my experience with games that have both SP and MP components)
I've skimmed through -most- of the thread and I've read very good suggestions from... all sides, to be honest. It mustn't be easy to be a game designer, that's my first thought. Also, I'm glad not all of us are.
I simply want to add something from the Python user point of view. Bare with me, I don't do combat, I've never used a SCB.
Still, 3 things :
- it's obvious (to me) that some people arguing against the power of the Python do not realize its cost. It sounds quite... eery, frankly, to read comments about viper / eagle / sidewinder / cobras fighting a Python. I'm not saying those comments are right or wrong, I'm saying people should realize what the price, the time, the commitment is. 3M is rougly 80 times less money than 250M. Or, 250M is 8.000% more than 3M. Look at your salary (please, play along for this one). Multiply it by 8. That's an awful lot, right ? I mean, I would be the happiest with even a 2 times better salary. Regardless, now multiply your salary by 80. As you can see, the difference is insane, too big to even grasp (your salary*80 I mean). This is no longer on the same level. This changes everything in your life. Ok but back to ED, my point is, 80 times is a lot. And in this game, this means time and dedication. So please, keep up the good suggestions, but try to keep this scale in mind while doing so.
- this consideration about price extends to the risks, too. Rebuy costs are insane. A 250M Python would cost 12.5M just to rebuy. When a 3M Viper will cost 150k, and the bestest of Cobra could go up to what, 500k ? Yes, one may think that a Python owner will be able to make money faster than a Cobra owner, and they probably will, but not close to 25 times faster.
When you say, or think, "5 Cobras should definitely be able to strike a Python down, and if not, then there's clearly something broken here", please look again at the situation via the actual money at risk : 2.5M (supported by 5 individual players, so really it's 500k x 5) vs 12.5M (supported by 1 guy).
At my "level" (268 cargo hold) and with my current half-decent route (10.000cr/ton/hour) - that I actually spent hours looking for and testing, so yes, there is an investment here too, a Python doesnt "pop" into your shipyard by itself - it would take me around 5 hours of continuous farm just to secure that rebuy cost.
A Cobra with 40 Cargo hold, using the same route, would take 1 hour 15 to secure his rebuy cost.
If he had a T6 with 100 cargo hold, and using the same route again, it would take him 30 minutes.
I'm not a balance designer, I have no solution here. Just want to bring that to your collective attention : the stakes are not the same.
- lastly, I've read good (in my eyes) suggestions about SCB purpose/removal and buffing the hulls of big ships. I have no definite opinion on the matter other than : here, again, I want to point out the price of hull repairs for a "big ship" like the Python. They are is in-sa-ne. You cannot look at what it costs you to repair your eagle / viper / sidey / cobra and apply that to a Python, this is not on the same level, this is not linear. It costs hours of farm just to repair hull damage.
So, again, please, keep up the good suggestions, but try to keep this scale in mind while doing so.
My 2 cents, for what they're worth.
I simply want to add something from the Python user point of view. Bare with me, I don't do combat, I've never used a SCB.
Still, 3 things :
- it's obvious (to me) that some people arguing against the power of the Python do not realize its cost. It sounds quite... eery, frankly, to read comments about viper / eagle / sidewinder / cobras fighting a Python. I'm not saying those comments are right or wrong, I'm saying people should realize what the price, the time, the commitment is. 3M is rougly 80 times less money than 250M. Or, 250M is 8.000% more than 3M. Look at your salary (please, play along for this one). Multiply it by 8. That's an awful lot, right ? I mean, I would be the happiest with even a 2 times better salary. Regardless, now multiply your salary by 80. As you can see, the difference is insane, too big to even grasp (your salary*80 I mean). This is no longer on the same level. This changes everything in your life. Ok but back to ED, my point is, 80 times is a lot. And in this game, this means time and dedication. So please, keep up the good suggestions, but try to keep this scale in mind while doing so.
- this consideration about price extends to the risks, too. Rebuy costs are insane. A 250M Python would cost 12.5M just to rebuy. When a 3M Viper will cost 150k, and the bestest of Cobra could go up to what, 500k ? Yes, one may think that a Python owner will be able to make money faster than a Cobra owner, and they probably will, but not close to 25 times faster.
When you say, or think, "5 Cobras should definitely be able to strike a Python down, and if not, then there's clearly something broken here", please look again at the situation via the actual money at risk : 2.5M (supported by 5 individual players, so really it's 500k x 5) vs 12.5M (supported by 1 guy).
At my "level" (268 cargo hold) and with my current half-decent route (10.000cr/ton/hour) - that I actually spent hours looking for and testing, so yes, there is an investment here too, a Python doesnt "pop" into your shipyard by itself - it would take me around 5 hours of continuous farm just to secure that rebuy cost.
A Cobra with 40 Cargo hold, using the same route, would take 1 hour 15 to secure his rebuy cost.
If he had a T6 with 100 cargo hold, and using the same route again, it would take him 30 minutes.
I'm not a balance designer, I have no solution here. Just want to bring that to your collective attention : the stakes are not the same.
- lastly, I've read good (in my eyes) suggestions about SCB purpose/removal and buffing the hulls of big ships. I have no definite opinion on the matter other than : here, again, I want to point out the price of hull repairs for a "big ship" like the Python. They are is in-sa-ne. You cannot look at what it costs you to repair your eagle / viper / sidey / cobra and apply that to a Python, this is not on the same level, this is not linear. It costs hours of farm just to repair hull damage.
So, again, please, keep up the good suggestions, but try to keep this scale in mind while doing so.
My 2 cents, for what they're worth.
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You can get credits from Algae trading. You can't get wingmen from Algae trading. You can't learn how to fight by doing algae trading. That's my thoughts about the price discussion.
Also you know, there's nothing stopping you from running.
And if Big ships are too weak, why not just make them stronger? Seems a lot simpler...
Ok...
What cost? I actually measured net profit on my new trade route with shielded t7 216t cargo. I am getting 3m/hour and I would consider the route (4 stations) just slightly above average. So that's like what? 20 hours to get a stock python? 10h more to equip it semi decently for combat? I work 40h/week and I don't see how big commitment it is really. I would say it's currently very easy to get python and situation in open only confirms that. I see more and more pythons everytime I dock at a station or jump at nav point. I am sure FD has more relevant data than this my little observation though.
Wanting something ridiculously overpowered and argumenting how you gave it "those hours" (haha) to justify it... that's just plain silly. Especially from someone who "doesn't do combat and never used csb". Sorry to to be so open but that's just how it is.
Does this mean that a shield which goes down during the 5 seconds won't get any benefit from using the cell? You basically have to press it 5 seconds in advance of your shields failing?
Sounds like it. I don't think it will make much of a difference, though. Damage is so predictable that, well, you can just press it 5 seconds earlier than you would have before and we're back at square one.
I guess thats the idea.
No, that's how you read it. And it seems that you misunderstood me.
I'm not taking this on a personnal level, I don't even plan to keep the Python.
I was talking about perspective. You speak about being open. Me too !
At any rates, I said what I wanted to say.
Having to time them better will most certainly raise their skill celling.
Press your SCB (which has a blatantly obvious visual effect by the way) and I'm going to hold my fire, move pips to SYS to better absorb your fire, if any, then near the tail end of your SCB use, I will move four pips to WEP, and burn through your shields long before you have time to use another SCB.
A five second spool up will totally change how they are used, especially for smaller ships.
Does the visual effect take place during the delay between activation and healing, or does it happen only when it starts replenishing? And yes. It drastically changes the effectiveness of shield cells on the already highly disadvantaged smaller ships, which to begin with could carry very little scbs and had power troubles as well as weak shields. Meanwhile, larger ships are less effected by it since they have a large enough pool of shields, that even recharging at 25% is a massive boost.