Why can't I add shields to my Cobra? It tells me it's too heavy?

[Torqued]

You are talking about different engines right? This is exactly not whats going on, imagine that the civilian engine produces 1800 lbs of thrust and the SAME engine on the military plane creates 15000 lbs of thrust while consuming the same amount of fuel. Would that make sense? This is what ED shield generators are doing.

This would be the case if I was talking about the shield generators. In my example I was trying (and apparently not succeeding) to refer to the construct/crutch that is the shield emitter / "magic hull shield number".

Same power is coming from the power plant to the same shield generator on both the Python and Asp, yet Python shield can absorb twice damage than Asp. We can assume shield generators take power and turn them into shield right? Since the Asp only has half the shield capacity of the Python where did the same power consumed go? Conservation of energy get it? It can't be created or destroyed, it goes somewhere, not into shield, something had to fill the tank, one has 1000 gallons the other 500, where did the extra 500 go? If something is more efficient than something else it means it wastes less. Energy being wasted goes somewhere, usually heat, could be radiation, either way it can't be destroyed. The power draw tell you the rate, and they are the same for both, if one has a straw and the other a 4" pipe, the one with the straw will overflow since the same amount is being pumped in from the power plant, the overflow is waste.

It can be difficult to convey points by analogy. I see the point you're trying to make, but still am not certain I agree yet Let's break this down into steps. If there is a problem somewhere at least we can narrow it to a specific place.

Given: Power plants generate power stuff.
Given: Shield generators take power and turn them into shield. (agree with you here).
Given: We have a "magic hull shield number" that FD want to use to make different hulls have different shield strengths. Let's call it an emitter.

Step 1: Power plant generates X units of power. This injects X energy into the system.
-- analogy: We have a water pump that can flow between 0 and 1 gallon per minute.

Step 2: Shield generator converts X units of power into Y units of shield with some entropy e. Energy / heat is created here due to the entropy, and is a factor of e, and the rate at which power -> shield units.
-- analogy: We have a machine that converts water to shield water by adding blue food coloring to the water, since shields are blue -- it does this at a rate of between 0 and 1 gallon per minute depending on demand. We have an essentially unlimited tank (1000 gallons) that we can store this in (because let's not get too complicated here).

Step 3: Shield emitter takes Y units of shield energy, and converts them to Z units of shield power at some rate Q.
-- analogy:

We have two identical pump -> tank setups (one named python, and one named asp).
At the bottom of each tank, we attach a spigot.
Lets say that each spigot is lined with teflon, and is ultra smooth, so that the entropy here is minimal.

The Python-machine has a giant spigot and a 30 ounce bin to catch the blue water. It can flow 10 ounces of blue shield water per minute to stop nasty attacks. If there is additional pressure in the tank, (due to an oversized pump + blue water converter device), it can flow 20 ounces of blue shield water with A rated equipment behind it.
The Asp-machine has a small spigot and 15 ounce bin to catch the blue water. It can flow 5 ounces of blue shield water per minute to stop nasty attacks. If there is additional pressure in the tank, it can flow 10 ounces of blue shield water with A rated equipment behind it.

In both the python and asp, they have the same capacity to generate blue water. They both can add a similar amount of extra water pressure (due to the weight of the water in the tank -- read better power plant and shield generator), but the outlet on the Asp is half the capacity (magic hull shield number), so it can only generate half the useful output.

I think where the stumbling block is, is that you're assuming that just because the power plant and shield generator "can" produce at some rate, that they perforce must do so. If you rate limit the output, nothing says that the excess capacity must be used or vented to space.

Put another way, just because the water treatment plant up the street is putting 10,000 gallons per minute into the municipal water supply doesn't mean that water in the system has to overflow when you can't turn on enough taps in your house to use all the capacity.

Also to be very very clear, this is just an explanation that seems to fit. It doesn't have to be completely accurate to the game world. For example, I've neglected to add in the effect of a better power distributor. However, it is internally consistent to the best of my abilities (and I can make mistakes here, no doubt) and doesn't involve leaps of physics-defying logic (I think).

Fact is, I think that it is up to FD to actually provide a lore-based explanation that makes sense, is internally consistent, doesn't involve too much bending of physics (some handwavium is necessary for good game play though) and presents all the information at hand when you're making relevant decisions (i.e. on the outfitting screen). The current "magic hull shield number" is, as you say, lacking in these qualities. However, it DOES exist, and for good game play reasons. We just need a better explanation that fits in with ED's lore.

 

[BigBadB]

Still don't understand why they don't want to do bespoke generators while basically having bespoke generators.

Simplicity.

The current setup means there are a maximum of 40 shield generator modules in the game (Rating A-E for Class 1-8).

A system that required unique shield generator modules for each ship would end up (once all 30 ships are in the game) requiring several hundred - if we assume each ship has an average of 3 classes of shield generator, each with A-E ratings, it'd be 450.

That's an order of magnitude increase in the number of shield generator modules that both the devs and players have to deal with.

Not to mention that you'd need to find a new notation/naming system to clearly indicate which ship a shield generator is for, and that it would be inconsistent with every other type of module in the game, all of which are 'generic' and not ship-specific. You'd have a lot of players wondering why all the other modules are shared by all ships, while shield generators are ship specific.

 

[AgentGB]

hmmmm had somthing similar when trying to outfit my type 9, sold the shield generator, tried to equip a smaller version (shield gen size 5) in a number 5 slot, got a error to do with mass or hull size, so tried to refit the previous shield generator back in it's original place, and still got the same thing, so i had to sell the type 9, buy it back, and not fiddle with placement of the shield generator.

What strange is on previous occasions i have had no trouble doing this, least to say, didn't really have the funds to play about and test this again to see what was causing.

 

[BigBadB]

hmmmm had somthing similar when trying to outfit my type 9, sold the shield generator, tried to equip a smaller version (shield gen size 5) in a number 5 slot, got a error to do with mass or hull size, so tried to refit the previous shield generator back in it's original place, and still got the same thing, so i had to sell the type 9, buy it back, and not fiddle with placement of the shield generator.

What strange is on previous occasions i have had no trouble doing this, least to say, didn't really have the funds to play about and test this again to see what was causing.

That sounds like a bug - I'd send a ticket.

 

[Dejay]

Sidewinders firing pulse lasers at an Anaconda for example get their damaged cut to 1/3 their normal damage potential.

I just threw up a little.

 

[Kintch]

Those formulas have a lot of magic numbers in them; a sure sign that it isn't what we're using. The shield formula is pretty simple. Take the base strength, look at the difference between hull mass and optimal mass and create a modifier to the base strength based on the linear interpolation between the shields best and worst modifier depending on whether you're over or under weight.

If you're exactly at the optimised mass then you'd get a modifier of 1 so no change.

A C2 shield generator has 28t 55t 138t mass curve and modifier limits of 1.5 to 0.5. So being at 28t would give you a modifier of 1.5 to base strength. Being at 138t would give you a 0.5 modifier to base strength. Being somewhere in between would be a linear interpolation of those values and 1.

Hm, one question I can't seem to find a clear answer to -- what happens if you mount a Shield Generator that has a way higher Optimal Mass than the ships Hull Mass? How does that modify the shield strength then; does it increase the strength, does nothing or lowers the strength of the shields?

Example -- take an Asp with 280t Hull Mass, mount a 6A Shield Generator with Optimal Mass of 540t... how does that affect its shield strength?

 

[Ogidch]

Nothing to do with the armour. The ship's "Hull Mass" is the limiting factor for shields and that is static and doesn't change based on your load out. Adding armour would increase the ship's total mass, not hull mass so it doesn't matter.

Mike,

Not sure if you will see this but trying to understand the shield mechanics here and cannot keeping thinking about "Hull Volume" as opposed to "Hull Mass"....bear with me!

Ok, as I understand the shields are energy based and repel, energy weapons as well as projectile. A ship with a larger hull mass will be effected more by projectile weapons and energy weapons should not be affected by hull mass. I look upon a shield as an energy bubble surrounding your ship and within a close proximity to the ships hull, in order to offer the required protection.

The larger this energy bubble the more spread out the shield, therefore the same shield generators power of deflection would change depending on the bubbles volume. You could have 2 ships with equal mass but one could have double the volume, therefore surely this would have shields which were less effective?

 

[BigBadB]

Hm, one question I can't seem to find a clear answer to -- what happens if you mount a Shield Generator that has a way higher Optimal Mass than the ships Hull Mass? How does that modify the shield strength then; does it increase the strength, does nothing or lowers the strength of the shields

Based on what Mike said, it's fairly simple:

* If the shield generator's Optimal Mass = your ship's Hull Mass, you get the shield strength listed on the ship
* If Optimal Mass > Hull Mass, shield strength is increased
* If Optimal Mass < Hull Mass, shield strength is reduced

There are limits on how much the shield strength can be increased or reduced, based on the Minimum and Maximum Mass stats of the shield generator (note that I don't think Min Mass is listed in game, but Mike gave a list earlier in this thread) and its modifier values (which depend on its rating).

Example -- take an Asp with 280t Hull Mass, mount a 6A Shield Generator with Optimal Mass of 540t... how does that affect its shield strength?

I don't know the modifier values for an A rating shield generator, but Mike gave an example of a C rating generator having a range of 1.5 to 0.5

Assuming that this is consistent for all C rating generators and using the numbers from Mike's posts:

6C generator has Min Mass 270t, Optimal Mass 540t and Max Mass 1350t. It has modifier limits of 1.5 to 0.5

So, if you were to fit it to a ship with a Hull Mass of 270t (the generator's Min Mass), you'd get a modifier of 1.5 (ie, 50% stronger than the ship's base shield strength). If you were to fit it to a ship with Hull Mass of 540t, you'd get a modifier of 1 (ie, the ship's base shield strength). If you were to fit it to a ship with Hull Mass of 1350t, you'd get a modifer of 0.5 (ie, half the ship's base shield strength).

An Asp has a Hull Mass of 280t and base shield strength of 140. As Mike said that the modifiers scaled linearly, that means with a 6C generator, you'd end up with a shield strength of about 207.4.

(Once again, assuming the 1.5-0.5 modifier range is common to all C rating generators, which I suspect it is, and that my back-of-an-envelope math is right).

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The larger this energy bubble the more spread out the shield, therefore the same shield generators power of deflection would change depending on the bubbles volume. You could have 2 ships with equal mass but one could have double the volume, therefore surely this would have shields which were less effective?

It would, if the game had a hull volume stat that was independent of the hull mass stat. But from Mike's posts, it doesn't. Hull Mass is used to represent the volume of the ship in comparison to other ships, at least for shield generator calculations.

 

[Sparkie]

Think in terms of the ship itself driving the strength of the shield and the generator just augmenting the final resistances and what not. Some ships just have better base shield strength built in and the generator can make that better or worse.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the great feedback in this thread. When you say "Some ships just have better base shield strength built in", are you referring to the discussion about shield strength varying as a function of 'mass vs shield mass ratings' or something secondary? I assume the former but would welcome a clarification.

Many thanks,
Sparkie

 

[taleden]

It's the modifiers yes and I do have that info but when outfitting tells you the final shield strength that will cover it.

If you're planning to modify the in-game outfitter to display final shield strength anyway, would you perhaps be willing to share the underlying shield generator stats and formula with us now, so that I can correct the calculation on www.edshipyard.com and you won't have to keep answering questions that are based on an incorrect calculation?

 

[BigBadB]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the great feedback in this thread. When you say "Some ships just have better base shield strength built in", are you referring to the discussion about shield strength varying as a function of 'mass vs shield mass ratings' or something secondary? I assume the former but would welcome a clarification.

He is, I feel confident saying, talking about the fact that some ships have better base shield strengths than others. For example, the Viper has better base shields (120) than the Cobra (80). The Python has far better base shields (390) than the Orca (220), Dropship (200) or Clipper (180). And so on.

 

[BigBadB]

If you're planning to modify the in-game outfitter to display final shield strength anyway, would you perhaps be willing to share the underlying shield generator stats and formula with us now, so that I can correct the calculation on www.edshipyard.com and you won't have to keep answering questions that are based on an incorrect calculation?

He's explained the formula and stats, all we're missing are the modifier ranges, other than for C rating generators (1.5-0.5).

(Assuming that the modifier ranges he specified for C2 generators apply to all C rating generators, which I suspect is highly likely).

I rather suspect that they'll be nice round numbers. Something like:

A 1.7-0.7
B 1.6-0.6
C 1.5-0.5
D 1.4-0.4
E 1.3-0.3

Or maybe:

A 1.6-0.6
B 1.55-0.55
C 1.5-0.5
D 1.45-0.45
E 1.4-0.4

It would be nice if we could get them, so here's hoping.

 

[Mike Evans]

I rather suspect that they'll be nice round numbers. Something like:

A 1.7-0.7
B 1.6-0.6
C 1.5-0.5
D 1.4-0.4
E 1.3-0.3

Bingo! The optimal modifier changes to in the same fashion (0.8 - 1.2).

 

[OBoile]

IMO some people get way to worked up over this stuff. It's a game. (note that I'm referring to people who want some sort of realism, not the people that just want to understand how it works).

 

[BigBadB]

Bingo! The optimal modifier changes to in the same fashion (0.8 - 1.2).

Thanks for the confirmation, Mike.

 

[Xzanron]

IMO some people get way to worked up over this stuff. It's a game. (note that I'm referring to people who want some sort of realism, not the people that just want to understand how it works).

But they're having so much fun! Isn't it a requirement to be slightly OCD to enjoy simulators

 

[Brujah]

So...

Why not have shield strength per ring be directly calculated from hull mass, then increase the number of rings based on how 'combatty' the ship is? Better yet, make that a module in its own right that you can buy (or not) depending on how you plan to use the ship?

Whilst we're at it, would it not be possible for ships to simply have a 'hull capacity' that is just all of the internal compartment sizes added together and let people install what they want (within the boundaries of hull integrity and power that are already in place)?

Edit: Or, indeed, just include the number of rings provided in the rating of the shield generator. Or, let's say my 'hull capacity' idea is implemented... If you install a bigger shield generator than you require, it adds a ring. Bigger yet, it adds two and so on.

 

[.Stu.]

thruster package

Probably needs an upgrade to cope with the weight you've added.

So either pony up for lighter and more expensive shields of a thruster package that cxan cope with the new mass of your ship.

Imagine if you undocked and then could not move 'cos your thruster pack was too puny to cope with your ship? you'd either time out and get shot for trespass or log out and back in to be floating idle in space about 12 km from the station with no way in !!

I was wondering why I can't add shields to my Cobra? It tells me it's too heavy? Surely the fact I have very heavy armour fitted to my Cobra to give me added protection against beam weapons should make no difference to the fact I need shields?

As it is when I go into combat and I take a hit it immediately starts reducing my armour and if I am fighting 3 or 4 pirates who are wanted then they have the upper hand on me because I have no shields to start with.

 

[JonathanVB]

Those formulas have a lot of magic numbers in them; a sure sign that it isn't what we're using. The shield formula is pretty simple. Take the base strength, look at the difference between hull mass and optimal mass and create a modifier to the base strength based on the linear interpolation between the shields best and worst modifier depending on whether you're over or under weight.

If you're exactly at the optimised mass then you'd get a modifier of 1 so no change.

A C2 shield generator has 28t 55t 138t mass curve and modifier limits of 1.5 to 0.5. So being at 28t would give you a modifier of 1.5 to base strength. Being at 138t would give you a 0.5 modifier to base strength. Being somewhere in between would be a linear interpolation of those values and 1.

I can't get this to line up with my measrements. I've plotted them here (red points is theory, blue points are measurements). These points were obtained through power required to recharge shield.

View attachment 9850

 

[Major Lag]

Simplicity.

The current setup means there are a maximum of 40 shield generator modules in the game (Rating A-E for Class 1-8).

A system that required unique shield generator modules for each ship would end up (once all 30 ships are in the game) requiring several hundred - if we assume each ship has an average of 3 classes of shield generator, each with A-E ratings, it'd be 450.

That's an order of magnitude increase in the number of shield generator modules that both the devs and players have to deal with.

Not to mention that you'd need to find a new notation/naming system to clearly indicate which ship a shield generator is for, and that it would be inconsistent with every other type of module in the game, all of which are 'generic' and not ship-specific. You'd have a lot of players wondering why all the other modules are shared by all ships, while shield generators are ship specific.

Ship.Type.Name + ' ' + ShieldGenerator.Class + ' ' + ShieldGenerator.Rating

Hows that for simplicity?

We already have an order of order of magnitude increase that player and devs have to deal with. Every ship in the game currently has bespoke shield generators, they just happen to be named the same and cost the same and consume the same power, in their actual function they are unique, might as well imagine the outfitting screen is filtering them down to your ships shield generator except for the fact you can sell it from one ship and buyback on the other.

Generators are ship specific! They can't be reasoned about generically! How confusing is it that the shield generators all look the same but have wildly different and inconsistent performance on each individual ship?

I just threw up a little.

You're not the only one.