Shields/Combat: What's gonna be left?

Andi

A
After having read that shields at 4 pips are not following the normal reinforce progression but are way off, there are only 2 ways to fix this: Make it smoother or lower the value. I have no idea what's planned, but I'd guess the 4 pips value is gonna be nerfed.

Add to that the upcoming changes to shield cells, which are fine as is from my POV, and we'll not only have weaker shields (they're pretty useless already as is, because they tank pretty pathetic damage unless you feed them cells all the time), but also no more "potions" like we have now.

I can see how these "fixes" are of benefit for PVPers, but since when is Elite a PVP game?

This will significantly weaken us in PVE, and while some people might find the PVE encounters trivial, many of us do not and will struggle with assassination missions come the next patch. The Cobra will suffer from this even more than the Viper I guess. So...

...what's gonna be left?
 
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DefiledDragon

D
Shield potions shouldn't even be here in my opinion. Everybody has shields, the playing field is level. Why are shield potions necessary? If assassination missions are too tough, then balance them, but don't do it by giving players access to magic potions that restore their shields or fights will degenerate to who's got the most shield cells competitions, all other things being equal and that just sucks tbh. Maybe have a module that increases the durability of the shield, or increases resistance to a single damage type with a module limit per ship of 1, but shield potions suck and I would happily see them removed from the game.
 

HavocCommando

H
If you need more then one shield boost in any PvE encounter I have bad news for you (you are very VERY bad). Honestly shield cells are even bigger issue in PvE then they are in PvP because they completely trivialize any PvE encounter. And for understandable reasons they are completely broken in PVP. The nerf/limiting of shield cells is a much needed change.

The game is called Elite: DANGEROUS and shield cells completely remove any danger from the game.
 

Andi

A
In PVP, they hardly matter. Whoever runs out first loses and has to flee - so what?

In PVE, they do give an advantage, because you can't avoid damage properly in a Viper/Cobra against assassination target Anacondas.
Like I said, I don't care if some people find they "trivialize content", because, honestly, 150k for an assassin mission when I could earn 1 million by hauling stuff around is trivial, too - and it's not like we'd even have much choice right now. Search for ages for little pirates, or search for that one big boy, that, come patch day, isn't killable anymore for a LOT of people in Viper/Cobra.

I hope you don't suggest grinding for a Python/Anaconda till I can do those. At that level, farting in the general direction of the target station should net me millions -who in their right mind would do assassinations, if their difficulty level is over the top, compared to a 10 minute semi-AFK trucking session?

Like I said, this is Elite, not Shadowbane, DAoC, Counterstrike or Eve. PVP should take a backseat here. balancing for PVP is totally unnecessary, and even harmful if it damages the PVE content - which Elite is mainly about.

So, again, I wonder, without resistance mods like the armor ones for shields, what's gonna be left?
A pathetic 2-shottable shield with no real means to replenish it, then tank armor, again, with no repair unit, so you CAN even build a tank?
 

Flyinpiranha

F
Andi said:
I hope you don't suggest grinding for a Python/Anaconda till I can do those. At that level, farting in the general direction of the target station should net me millions -who in their right mind would do assassinations, if their difficulty level is over the top, compared to a 10 minute semi-AFK trucking session?

Like I said, this is Elite, not Shadowbane, DAoC, Counterstrike or Eve. PVP should take a backseat here. balancing for PVP is totally unnecessary, and even harmful if it damages the PVE content - which Elite is mainly about.
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From the actions they're taking right now, this just isn't true anymore. In fact being so close to launch and all the developers seem to be talking about on the forums is "pvp balance" I'd say that's the main focus of the game.
 

Andi

A
Unfortunately, it's not possible to not update the game and play offline until they come to their senses.
Thing is, if I wanted PVP, I'd play in open and then I'd take the changes and see what I can do with them.
But I do not, because PVP doesn't interest me.

I did explain what this will do to the little PVE we have right now.
 

hanks01

H
Nothing wrong with shield cells, maybe limit them to one module per craft but they tend to make PVP battles more intense and dramatic (rather than a 30 seconds laser fest that results in one person running away to either recharge or jump out.) Also they can allow players to stay in warzones for longer rather than having to jump out every few minutes (or runaway) to repair hull etc... They add longevity to a bounty hunting session and generally save back and forth.

One module per ship for those focussing on a combat session with however many charges they hold now is fine.
 

krysohmyz

K
Shield cells are meaningless in PvP, true.
In PvE combat, in a ship from a Clipper higher, they can save you a hundreds of thousands, if you made a mistake, though.
Let's say I am indecisive.

What could be a good alternative? What about being able to instantly replenish the shields from sys energy pool? It would, then, recharge, depending on pips in it. So no abuse in PvP and yet a little something when you really need it.
 
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SE-Apocalypse

S
Andi said:
In PVP, they hardly matter. Whoever runs out first loses and has to flee - so what?

In PVE, they do give an advantage, because you can't avoid damage properly in a Viper/Cobra against assassination target Anacondas.
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I can avoid damage properly just fine, the AI is so incredible bad, fly most of the time with 2 pips to shields and still my shields do not fail me.

The cells are still nice, because they allow you to kill those pseudo elite 50k anacondas in less than 90 seconds, because you don´t have to evade fire and can concentrate fully on doing damage to the powerplant. Doing it so quick makes sure that the Anaconda does not get away, which is kind of nice. If you do it in default viper without cells they actually have a small chance to escape. No Chance to get pass your 4 pips in shields still, but unless you use simply 4 dumbfire launchers you suffer from low energy on weapons.

Anyway, is not kind of ironic that you are apposing a balance change which would make PVE just a little more difficult with the argumentation that the game is all about pve? If it is all about PVE and assassination missions are the most challenging endgame content the game has for you, shouldn´t you be happy that your content gets at least a little bit more challenging?

And is it not even more ironic when we consider that we get 'soon' wings to group up for pve content?

edit:
Oh and if you really have trouble, use an missile ASP, takes 20 second flat to kill a Pirate Lord that way. ;-) No risk at all involved.
 
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Battleship Kickass

B
You ever notice how people that don't use shield cells have to make it a point to let you know they don't use them?

They could use a bit of balance IMO. I think combat would be more interesting in that just because your shields dropped first you are not guaranteed to lose or at least not win as it is currently. IE you may drop someone running all MC's shields down first, but you better get to work on his hull or you're toast when yours drop. Current combat is shield cell til someone drops shields then the shieldless player runs away because he knows it is going to be impossible to win if they have shield cells still. The only workable PvP loadouts are those that burst shields very fast currently, I just feel it would be more fun and you would see more variety and choices in weapon/armor/outfitting in general loadouts.

That has to do with PvP mainly, but the same could be said for pve. Removing them completely would really make the game more challenging, but if you have a problem killing elite anacondas I can understand why you don't want them changed.
 
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Andi

A
I can't relate to your "stand and tank" opinion. Anacondas rip you apart in a Viper, even more so in a Cobra, when you just stand there head to head for a shootout. Their damage kills shields faster than the shield cells can refill them, so this point is moot.

You can avoid damage? No matter where I fly, in front, behind, above, below the Anaconda, I take damage.I can avoid missile hits from afar when recharging shields by fitting a point defense, and I can avoid a certain percentage of damage for a few seconds by the gimbals with chaff, but Anaconda pirate lords don't only have those, they do also fire normal weapons - either that, or chance is in their favour a lot.

This means, you do take damage and you need a way to avoid or mitigate it. Mitigation currently works, when you have more than 1 shield cell bank an in Cobra, or are fast enough in a Viper to outmaneuver a part of the hits. The Viper can currently withstand enough damage to actually kill the target with one bank, the Cobra can not.

Yea, I may not have your hand eye coordination anymore, but do I have to? Why? Even with my at best mediocre skill set I should be able to configure a pure fighter craft (Viper) or a pretty maneuverable all-rounder (Cobra) so it beats a NPC worth 150k, and the mission takes somewhere around 20-30 minutes, too.

I don't see the irony at all, care to explain yourself?
 

Andi

A
Rall said:
Can you provide your source? I've not seen this stated by any of the Frontier Staff.
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There's a thread reporting the 4-pips-irregularity somewhere, don't know the thread name, and there's a "nerf shield cells" somewhere around, where a dev discussed this with players. Both contain dev replies and both state that they'll "do whatever" (4 pips) / nerf (cells).

The right now lame shields will take a double hit when they really could need a boost. Then you wouldn't have to use cells and we all could be happy.

BTW I don't want to kill a cruiser with an explorer fitted for missile damage. I want to fight enemies in a fighter (Viper) or in a ship designed to handle combat situations (Cobra). Asp is mainly an exploration vessel.
 

Grundfuttock

G
HavocCommando said:
If you need more then one shield boost in any PvE encounter I have bad news for you (you are very VERY bad)...

The game is called Elite: DANGEROUS and shield cells completely remove any danger from the game.
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I've no wish to antagonise but I'd ask that if you voice the opinion that it makes someone bad if they need to use more than one, then you also say how that someone can improve.
I'll admit that I certainly have a lot to learn as I use quite a few in assassinations as I never seem to be able to get and stay behind the target. I'd suggest that we, the folks who do need to use shield cells fairly frequently that is, recognise we aren't the best so would appreciate the help.

The "it's called dangerous" line is a familiar one. I'd suggest that we don't need reminding, we need help on becoming dangerous ourselves.
 

Andi

A
Grundfuttock said:
I've no wish to antagonise but I'd ask that if you voice the opinion that it makes someone bad if they need to use more than one, then you also say how that someone can improve.
I'll admit that I certainly have a lot to learn as I use quite a few in assassinations as I never seem to be able to get and stay behind the target. I'd suggest that we, the folks who do need to use shield cells fairly frequently that is, recognise we aren't the best so would appreciate the help.

The "it's called dangerous" line is a familiar one. I'd suggest that we don't need reminding, we need help on becoming dangerous ourselves.
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And add to this that fighting in this game is actually a "for fun" activity right now, not a money making activity. I know, you CAN earn some cash with it, but that's a way more cruel grind than trading is.

Want fighting PVE enemies to be more challenging? How about multiplying the payout of those missions and bounties then, to bring it in line with zero risk hauling?
Trading is fine as is, BHing is not, but I could live with it if things would stay "trivial" enough for old farts like me to actually play this part of the game, too.
 
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