Proposal Discussion add FPS dimension : example with Dust 514

[Buffalo974]

I did not forget that spaceship driving was the core of the game , that's okay !!!

i noticed that players who refuse FPS extension seem to be afraid , that this adding causes a bad impact on their usal gaming experience , or in the game development .

So , if we give them insurance that they won't suffer in any way , we could show them
what we mean .

Some astrophysician think that a dark hole contain another hidden big world inside .
We could benefit of a FPS-Dark-Hole at the center of milky way or Andromede .

It could be our little sandbox , a kind of parallel world, for showing our arguments.

There , we could make a demonstration about interactions and opportunities permitted by living outside a space ship. This life could have fighting period , but also constructive
activities , or social meeting (to buy a house , to walk down streets , to manage a corporation , to develop bank activities , man hunting , spy ...).

If the experience is very positive , it will develop itself without trying a bit harder !

Gameplay have to evolve , we have to prepare games for the next decade .
We don't play today like in 80's , 90's or 2000's .
Be positive mind , think about how to bypass obstacle , future will link several games in one universe .

I would be so proud having Being backer's of the very first game who successed in it .
This game could be Elite Dangerous .
This Universe should be Elite Dangerous one !

let's take advantage of current funding models !

 

[Slawkenbergius]

I'm looking forward to the first-person expansion, but don't think a Dust 514 or Planetside 2 structure would really work well with the kind of game Elite is. The space portion of Elite is more of an adventure game than a shooter, so I'd expect the same thing of the first-person element. My vision would be more like some kind of blend of Skyrim, but also extending the space part of the game. So a smuggling missions might involve one player dropping a narcotics package in the atmosphere, and the other player trekking across the planet's surface to pick it up.

If you went with out and out 'territory warfare' FPS, it would feel tacked on, and frankly a bit rubbish. You could do the same thing with racing and tack on a racing game, or farming, and tack-on a farming simulator... Ultimately though, they would probably be served best (and make more cash for Frontier) sold as completely separate games, or possibly spin-offs.

It would be cool if there could be massive ground battles on planets at some stage, don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure about making that a big focus of the game. Especially when the networking limitations are a bit tight for that kind of thing.

 

[Arowx]

I've been working on an Indie game called Space War, the idea is to get it working as a multiplayer space battle, take the ideal of battlefield 3 and put it in space.

But as has been mentioned troops are tiny, almost insignificant elements in any space based conflict.

As any board game strategist will tell you once you have air, or in this case, space superiority the fight is over in any ground/planet based conflict, then you are back to guerilla tactics.

What would make space based troop combat interesting is boarding actions, otherwise troops in space without a ship are just slow moving cannon fodder.

E.g. imagine dropping the Jetman into any arial combat situation, give him a gun or rocket launcher and combat body armour and still he's a sitting duck.

But stealth him and give him a breaching charge and C4 and he's a potential menace that could bring down your largest ships.

 

[Arowx]

Mind you if you take your space trooper and Iron Man or Mech then up for space based combat maybe they could be really great little shock troops that in a group could take down ships and still do boarding actions.

Just imagine a squadron of Iron Man style space troopers zooming up from a planet you're trying to blockade, with shields/stealth and heavy weapons combined with high speed and maneuverability they could cause you some serious harm and be hard to hit.

 

[Buffalo974]

hey guys !
i found something funny to illustrate what i mean by DCA and massive invasion !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWhrGGrs3Ow

enjoy !

 

[KING5TON]

The problem with DUST was that it played like crap.
Player movement was extremely floaty, guns didn't seem to have much impact and the maps seemed devoid of detail.
I only played it a little when it was first released so it might have gotten better but I've not had the time to try it.

 

[JeffRyan]

The problem with DUST was that it played like crap.
Player movement was extremely floaty, guns didn't seem to have much impact and the maps seemed devoid of detail.
I only played it a little when it was first released so it might have gotten better but I've not had the time to try it.

Oh yeah I agree with you and Buffalo on this. The problem with DUST isn't the concept. Or even trying to tie it into EVE gameplay. It's the execution that really didn't work. The reasons for the failure have been pretty accurately described in this thread. The PS3 only deal. The poor implimentation. The fierce competition in the FPS market.

The idea was great (I was an EVE player at the time, I finally left about a year ago) and I was super-excited about the possibilities it offered, even though I'm not a FPS player myself. I did like the idea of trying to tap that market. AND having it persistant; I disagree with those who think that was a bad idea. I think having your actions having consequences and being part of a bigger fight COULD have made DUST 514 stand out from the competition. It was that 'something' different that might just have given it that edge.

But yeah I agree the problem with DUST was DUST. That doesn't mean the concept was bad.

 

[Razorwire]

But the concept *is* bad...

In (most) space sims, you are one pilot. If you are shot down, you lose your ship and escape pod your way back to a station to replace it. Or you reload from a previous save.

In (most) FPS, you get killed, you respawn. You're either playing a series of near identical faceless soldiers, or one supersoldier with a hand-wavey mechanism to survive getting killed.

These things are not alike. EVE/Dust was actually a damn good shot at reconciling the differences, as the universe supports cloning and memory downloads.
It won't work in Elite, unless the two aspects are kept seperate.

 

[govny]

I don't like the FPS idea for Elite.
What I hope in future expansions is the possibility to visit and explore, to make some recon or delivery mission. At most some bounty Hunting mission in a FPS style. But I think a large scale combat like DUST or BF, would be bad for a game like elite.

 

[SirGeldi]

The FPS part is what worries me most anout Star Citizen.
Must be because i don't like FPS in general.
There is so many FPS games out there we realy don't need to shoot space zombies here.
So i hope Elite sticks to it's roots and becomes a nice clean space sim.

 

[Slythe]

I don't like the FPS idea for Elite.
What I hope in future expansions is the possibility to visit and explore, to make some recon or delivery mission. At most some bounty Hunting mission in a FPS style. But I think a large scale combat like DUST or BF, would be bad for a game like elite.

I don't mind a bit of FPS combat as long as it's suitable for the existing game and doesn't feel like stepping into a different world. The "charge in shooting/die/respawn/repeat" model of FPS would be totally wrong IMO, but something more like a stealth shooter, in which the consequences of being shot are serious and to be avoided at all cost, could work.

 

[KING5TON]

FPS elements don't have to be your standard FPS death match type deal like COD or large scale battles like DUST of Battlefield.
It can be incorporated so that it is just another layer to the game play that fits the game very well.

Think love child between E: D and Deus EX.
You can't tell me that's bad idea unless you're extremely blinkered (or don't know what Deus EX is, then shame on you!).

End of the day as I've said in other threads, there is a planned an EVA expansion. Since it's paid for DLC it will need to be compelling or no one will buy it. Walking about and looking at stuff is NOT compelling. It's a novelty that will be done a few times and never again. The ability to shoot stuff when EVA adds a whole host of compelling game play opportunities.

Ideally I'd like even more game play options that walking about, looking at stuff and shooting stuff. The more things you can do the deeper the game play experience is.

Take the recently released GTA V as an example. Would it have sold $1 billion worth in 3 days if all you could do is drive around and shoot stuff? I don't think so. The ability to drive, shoot and so much more is what made that game so great and such a commercial success (along with a number of other things like great plot, writing, music etc..)

 

[KING5TON]

I don't mind a bit of FPS combat as long as it's suitable for the existing game and doesn't feel like stepping into a different world. The "charge in shooting/die/respawn/repeat" model of FPS would be totally wrong IMO, but something more like a stealth shooter, in which the consequences of being shot are serious and to be avoided at all cost, could work.

I agree.

But, if FD could add in some kind of Virtual battlefield where the TDM or large scale battle types of games can be played out then I'd be all for it.
You don't have to play them if you don't want to (that's the main thing and the reason people who say they don't want it shouldn't stamp their feet too much).

They could be kinda like a future version of computer games or a gladiator arena.

You dock at a space station, sign up for a virtual battlefield, get plugged into virtual reality and face off against other pilots doing the same.

Not saying that it should be all that the EVA expansion should be about but if the devs did add this I'm sure people would use it from time to time as a breather from the core game.

 

[Oss133]

FPS elements don't have to be your standard FPS death match type deal like COD or large scale battles like DUST of Battlefield.
It can be incorporated so that it is just another layer to the game play that fits the game very well.

Think love child between E: D and Deus EX.
You can't tell me that's bad idea unless you're extremely blinkered (or don't know what Deus EX is, then shame on you!).

End of the day as I've said in other threads, there is a planned an EVA expansion. Since it's paid for DLC it will need to be compelling or no one will buy it. Walking about and looking at stuff is NOT compelling. It's a novelty that will be done a few times and never again. The ability to shoot stuff when EVA adds a whole host of compelling game play opportunities.

Ideally I'd like even more game play options that walking about, looking at stuff and shooting stuff. The more things you can do the deeper the game play experience is.

Take the recently released GTA V as an example. Would it have sold $1 billion worth in 3 days if all you could do is drive around and shoot stuff? I don't think so. The ability to drive, shoot and so much more is what made that game so great and such a commercial success (along with a number of other things like great plot, writing, music etc..)

All fair points, but I think the problem is reconciling the escape pod mechanic with the potential bang-bang-you're-dead mechanic.

I am looking forward to all the planned expansions but we just want them done right and to be consistent.

 

[KING5TON]

All fair points, but I think the problem is reconciling the escape pod mechanic with the potential bang-bang-you're-dead mechanic.

I am looking forward to all the planned expansions but we just want them done right and to be consistent.

Fair point but unless the EVA expansion is just walking around stations/your ship and watching cargo being loaded then being EVA outside your ship in space carries the same issue.
If you're on a spacewalk and someone shoots you from their ship or an asteroid smashes into you or you fall off and drift into the sun then you'd be dead with no way to get to a escape pod.

I can think of several ways to handle player death such as clones, heirs, not being able to die (e.g. you have nanites in you that fix your injuries after a short time) or teleportation that allow you to continue your game in a believable way.

End of the day it's a game and FD have complete control over what is and isn't possible re player death and continuing your game. Space angels could come and return your body to the nearest space station, sprinkle it with pixie dust and use the power of greyskull to raise you from the dead, I'd still be happy as long as the EVA part was compelling.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I think the death mechanic will have to be re-thought for the walking on planets & stations add-ons. To have no death in those features would make them unrealistic and pointless imho. They'd just become boring sight-seeing tours with an invulnerability cloak around you. I can't imagine anything more immersion breaking than players running around with invulnerability shields or some WoW style pop-up saying 'you can't harm so and so here' if you try to fire your laser pistol at someone. Its supposed to be a sandbox.

However I'd hate to see the traditional FPS-style gung-ho stuff in ED whenever you set foot off your ship, but something more subtle and civilized. More akin to the wild west and not a WW2 battlefield. Something that you know has the element of risk, especially if you go to the wrong place where an altercation is quite possible (seedy bar or a dodgy arms dealers drug den), but there will be severe consequences if you're the instigator!

As long as you know the rules and understand your life is fragile away from your ship and there are severe consequences for attacking someone on a station or the surface of a non-anarchy world then I think it will curb peoples behavior in the way they play that part of the game.

For DUST style gameplay there could be military missions for those that seek more fast-paced shootouts and tactical warfare. Stuff like having to assault a land-based pirate hideout, or storming a station that's fallen into enemy hands. Even an "Aliens" style bug hunt with colonial marines would be great fun to be part of. But on the whole I'd like FD to keep Elite on the firm road of crime & punishment with dire consequences for your actions - and away from mindless slaughter and rambo style gameplay that traditional shooters serve up.

Some consequences for criminal activity in populated environments (i.e. on stations, planetary installations, and planet surfaces in highly policed regions) :

• Swift security or police response to an unprovoked or unjustified attack.
• Physically attack someone (without a weapon) - fined and possibly a short term in a detention area or penal colony.
• Use a weapon on someone - you can be shot on sight by law enforcement or bounty hunters, your ship and contents are impounded, massive fines etc.

Basically you would have to have a bloody good reason to attack someone unlawfully on a station or high-security planet as the consequences would be dire - far worse than they would be in ship to ship combat due to the nature of the environment you're in.

All this could be scaled down depending on the security levels of where you are. So in the lawless outer reaches, it would be like the wild west. You takes your chances. Consequences still exist but are not as severe.

As far as death goes and where/how you reawaken, I think FD will have to come up with something plausible. Its supposed to be difficult to kill someone in space combat due to the toughness of our ships and the fact we have an escape pod. But once you're out of that protected environment and are just you, your avatar, walking around, you should be as fragile and as vulnerable as you are in real life. Anything else will be immersion-breaking.

 

[Oss133]

As far as death goes and where/how you reawaken, I think FD will have to come up with something plausible. Its supposed to be difficult to kill someone in space combat due to the toughness of our ships and the fact we have an escape pod. But once you're out of that protected environment and are just you, your avatar, walking around, you should be as fragile and as vulnerable as you are in real life. Anything else will be immersion-breaking.

Personally, I find the idea of "dying" in a game rather pointless and very immersion breaking. The player can never actually die. In single player I am booted back to some sort of loading screen and reload a save position. In E: D I am going to do something similar and carry on playing.

I am INVINCIBLE!

 

[jabokai]

I don't plan on playing the "walking about" expansion at all anyway. So, I'll be way safer than you guys getting off your ships as I'll still be in my boat with its indestructible escape pod!

 

[Riandor]

I admire what DUST attempted, but there are fundamental differences to that universe and this one. Huge differences alone in the concepts of EVE in space and Elite.

Elite in itself can be very much a form of Space FPS and as a result I do not believe that Elite needs or has scope for mass warfare and I would be happy about that.

Elite at the end of the day is a Space sim with ships and that "should" be the main concept. Go all Battlefield and you change the whole purpose of the game and I have little interest in this game in becoming another nameless re-spawning soldier in a pointless grand-scale conflict.

it doesn't enhance me, it doesn't enhance my ship and therefore it doesn't enhance Elite.

Now, the calls for a GTA style of thinking makes more sense, IF that is what Frontier envisaged from the off. The issues EVE and it's extended universe are suffering from is not the idea, it's the fact that this idea was not part of the original design and thus is always a bolt on.

I am not against FPS in an avatar vs avatar sense, I love FPS, but it has to be for a purpose. That purpose in my view would be ship to ship boarding, assassination, Space ship hostile takeover events maybe even, but small squad based incursions or single vs a few. Hunting for rare and exotic items to sell back in space...

Those items enhance the core game, which is journeys through space in ships.

DUST and EVE are separate games (platforms even), but what we have here is ELITE and it's enhancement within the same game. If it hasn't been planned from the get-go, it won't work.

I like the concepts, I think there is definitely a market where that does work, but I am not convinced it is with this game.

Now if a GTA is foreseen with this (not particularly the criminality, just the free-form interesting world aspects) then I am all for that. but ultimately anything i do planet-side should enhance my Space Ship game and not turn the flight aspects into trivial travel to then have a planet-side game where FPS is the new core.

 

[Jenner]

DUST and EVE are separate games (platforms even), but what we have here is ELITE and it's enhancement within the same game. If it hasn't been planned from the get-go, it won't work.

For me this is the core issue. For FPS gunplay to work in Elite it has to follow along the same logic as the rest of the universe and not feel like a totally different experience. It also can't be the focus, as the focus should stay with spaceships and spaceflight. I'm actually really looking forward to the expansion that allows PCs to walk around their ships and stations, as this is a logical extension of the core gameplay. Anything that adds immersion should be considered!

As has been said before, it all needs to be complimentary and offer new and exciting gameplay elements for it to be worthwhile.