You are not the first person in history that erroneously thought that their "Final Solution" was a good idea.
Please fix the Alt F4 exploit
- Thread starter Knorlac
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imagine your in a combatzone and have to go, how you do you leave the game then ?
just let them float for like 15 sec , thats enought.
and i understand ppl who disconnect , ships are expensive ^^
Know what's even worse, there's actual real cash on the line, with this whole Race to Elite competition. Imagine the reviewer thrashing when it turns out the winner of the cash was using alt-F4, or even better, had their router set up so that any chance of PvP was blocked.
The kicker of it is, the advocates of "combat logging" are doing the exact thing they accuse PvPers of doing...maliciously exploiting the game mechanics for "the lulz". Sure, they dress it up as "I'm just protecting muh stuff!", but cheating is cheating, regardless of motive.
Even more amusing, the vitriol doled out on the people who're reporting it. The way I figure, if it's not an exploit and within FD's vision for how the game should work, then "combat loggers" have no fear of getting reported. On the flipside, if it *IS* an exploit, well......
I agree with this wholeheartedly - if you're bad... Like really bad - enough to warrant a significant bounty kind of bad, then expect less-than-pleasant attention from other ships. If you're just trying to get out the god-damned Sidey and into something that can actually make you some cash, and are pootling along minding your own business when *BAM*, then yeah, there's a problem in how the game balances the risks and rewards of certain behaviours.
That would solve a lot of problems but create others.M0b1u5 said:
There's a fundamental contradiction in open mode as it stands, in that people want to play open, but don't want to be ganked. I don't think the contradiction is inherent to the code, but rather inherent to the way people have come to play online - we're all fearless keyboard warriors, and the way that prosocial and antisocial behaviours are mediated largely eliminates consequences.
yesterday i was bh, some cmdrs came into same navpoint and start flying behind waiting till i almost finish wanted ships then join in fight to steal my bounty. After few bounties gone i asked them to go and... But no respond, so decide to take them down, one was a cake burnt in 40sek, other one dc at roughly 20% hull, how to call such noobs. After this i had to pay some 20k fine, plus some bounties left.
my suggestion is lets make a wall on facebook or somewhere, to post nick names of such cmdrs, we are not allowed here as they want to babysit such behaviours, lets do this somewhere...
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
Hi.
I have a couple of thoughts on this...
1) Alt-F4. I have been having some PC issues recently (basically my overclocks have been a little optimistic
) so I have been having display crashes (testing done in offline btw so no mucking up other people). However, I must admit, I found that ALT-F4 does NOT actially kill my process. The only way I can kill it is by task managering it and killing there, and even then it takes a good 30s to actually kill the game. How are you guys alt-F4ing? (Its not that I want to cheat but I must admit I thought FD had already blocked that as a quick exit - In beta it worked fine, but since gamma, it has not worked for me.
2) Some people will cable pull, it happens in all games that there is nothing stopping them from doing it. until FD implement either AI taking hold of your ship for a set amount of time, or an insta fine / loss of rep for doing it, this will not stop.
AI taking over your ship is the fairest way, that way people who crash etc or have net burps do not get punished. People have said because it is P2P this cant work... well, I am no programmer so maybe this is true, however given our saves are held at FD's end I do not see why this cant be coded in that unless a machine exits cleanly, then the "other" PC takes control of the disconnected ship and then uploads the outcome to the server after it is resolved?.
But imo any punishment to people that do this has to go hand in hand with fixing the punishments for psychopaths. We were promised that psychpathy would be possible not NOT a valid way to play the game in terms of progression, and that anyone who chooses to play this way would face the severest of consequences. These consequences are clearly not in place yet.... For those of us who like the idea of seeing other people, but are not interested in mindless ganking, Elite sounded like the perfect game, and I still think it can be..... but until these issues are sorted out I will be sticking in the Mobius group, which is great and all, but is barely any more populated than solo in reality IME.
not being interested in PvP does not always mean loner hermit
I have a couple of thoughts on this...
1) Alt-F4. I have been having some PC issues recently (basically my overclocks have been a little optimistic
) so I have been having display crashes (testing done in offline btw so no mucking up other people). However, I must admit, I found that ALT-F4 does NOT actially kill my process. The only way I can kill it is by task managering it and killing there, and even then it takes a good 30s to actually kill the game. How are you guys alt-F4ing? (Its not that I want to cheat but I must admit I thought FD had already blocked that as a quick exit - In beta it worked fine, but since gamma, it has not worked for me.2) Some people will cable pull, it happens in all games that there is nothing stopping them from doing it. until FD implement either AI taking hold of your ship for a set amount of time, or an insta fine / loss of rep for doing it, this will not stop.
AI taking over your ship is the fairest way, that way people who crash etc or have net burps do not get punished. People have said because it is P2P this cant work... well, I am no programmer so maybe this is true, however given our saves are held at FD's end I do not see why this cant be coded in that unless a machine exits cleanly, then the "other" PC takes control of the disconnected ship and then uploads the outcome to the server after it is resolved?.
But imo any punishment to people that do this has to go hand in hand with fixing the punishments for psychopaths. We were promised that psychpathy would be possible not NOT a valid way to play the game in terms of progression, and that anyone who chooses to play this way would face the severest of consequences. These consequences are clearly not in place yet.... For those of us who like the idea of seeing other people, but are not interested in mindless ganking, Elite sounded like the perfect game, and I still think it can be..... but until these issues are sorted out I will be sticking in the Mobius group, which is great and all, but is barely any more populated than solo in reality IME.
not being interested in PvP does not always mean loner hermit
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I want you to loose your expensive ship , if you attack non wanted ships. I want the consequence, to make the attacker think , If you attack a newbie in a cobra the newbie can quit , then you get the wanted tag and a bigger meaner ships gets a higher bounty for killing you, another than a cobra that's your equal
Dont like the idea of separate PVP zones, it seperates players from the Elite Universe and just becomes a shoot them up, players should be able to fight anywhere , but ED needs consequence , this we can all agree on. Maybe a DUEL system , both agree and fight , but NO quitting allowed and especially if you have a wanted tag and are under attack
Personally I think the idea of an online PvP arena fight is not a bad idea... basically the Star Citizen Arena commander. I would suggest it being an "arcade" in the space stations.
Think of it like this, in 3300 not everyone gets to live the dream of flying in the real world, so it would make sense that such things would exist for the everyday cleaner/bar keeper etc who just lives a normal job. There could even be fees involved, like an arcade, and with competitions where you gamble (in game) money and winner takes all.....
But other than that dont forget there is already potential for arena fights anyway, for those who want balanced, fair and consensual PvP.... just agree to meet at a low / high intensity warzone, pick your side and job done. But that wont stop the people who just want to stomp trading ships for the giggles.
I think that we can be pretty certain of 2 things.
1) Players killing clean players goes against the developer's 'vision' for the game. Note that it is killing that is the problem - not piracy (see below). The only situation where I could see it being acceptable is when you have been given a 'kill traders' mission.
2) In a 'mature' game (in terms of development and mechanics), combat logging is unacceptable. There may be some argument for its use as a means of peaceful protest against problems in the game, but it should not be celebrated or used for entertainment. Nobody should be intending to use combat logging long term and have that accepted as a legitimate tactic.
So the developers need to work hard at eradicating both 1) and 2).
In terms of killing clean players the simplest approach is simply to dump the killer back to the main menu with the message that they have a day's suspension. Second offense you get a week off. Third offense you are banned from open play indefinitely, but can play solo and in groups where killing clean players is allowed (I'm not sure how the groups work at the moment but would imagine that each one has an 'administrator' that could toggle this on and off). Only exception is whilst pirating - the way I would work it is to have a key assigned to send a generic message demanding cargo. The defender then has 2mins to either drop some cargo (if they partially clear their cargo a further demand can be made) or accept the challenge and try to flee. If the challenge is accepted then they no longer count as clean for the purpose of this mechanic. If they empty their cargo and are still killed this counts as killing a clean player.
In terms of combat logging again I think they should take the simplest approach - if your game disconnects whilst you are in combat in open you are treated as having been killed. When you return to your station you will have lost your cargo and have to re-buy. If you don't have the re-buy the loan mechanic works as currently but with no limit to the amount you can loan. If you combat log in solo or in groups that allow it then there is no penalty. I appreciate this may be harsh on players with unstable connections but would draw the analogy with someone trying to run the game on a 6 year old laptop with no graphics card - the game is clearly online only and so if you don't have a reliable connection you are clearly not going to get the most out of the game.
So in the player killer vs combat logger scenario as we have at the moment, the victim is encouraged to avoid disconnecting so that their attacker gets one of their 'strikes' and is one step closer to being banned indefinitely.
That is the simple part that I think we can all get behind.
Piracy is more contentious but my 2c are as follows. Even in Solo you can get pirated by NPCs, although it happens far less frequently and with far less threat. So I think that it is fair to say that piracy is an acceptable behavior for a player. If you find being pirated frustrating there are a number of options, from changing to a more multi-purpose ship to finding quieter routes to eventually moving to a PvE group. Personally I think that pirating players in transport ships is pretty cheap given that they have little chance of defending themselves and so pose no more challenge than an NPC. Maybe this will change with the introduction of wings. For the meantime I would suggest that anybody using the 'pirate key' on another player immediately becomes visible to all players and NPCs in the system, with a bounty equal to their rebuy amount. I'd probably also look at improving the NPC security coverage in some of the core systems that are supposed to be more secure.
1) Players killing clean players goes against the developer's 'vision' for the game. Note that it is killing that is the problem - not piracy (see below). The only situation where I could see it being acceptable is when you have been given a 'kill traders' mission.
2) In a 'mature' game (in terms of development and mechanics), combat logging is unacceptable. There may be some argument for its use as a means of peaceful protest against problems in the game, but it should not be celebrated or used for entertainment. Nobody should be intending to use combat logging long term and have that accepted as a legitimate tactic.
So the developers need to work hard at eradicating both 1) and 2).
In terms of killing clean players the simplest approach is simply to dump the killer back to the main menu with the message that they have a day's suspension. Second offense you get a week off. Third offense you are banned from open play indefinitely, but can play solo and in groups where killing clean players is allowed (I'm not sure how the groups work at the moment but would imagine that each one has an 'administrator' that could toggle this on and off). Only exception is whilst pirating - the way I would work it is to have a key assigned to send a generic message demanding cargo. The defender then has 2mins to either drop some cargo (if they partially clear their cargo a further demand can be made) or accept the challenge and try to flee. If the challenge is accepted then they no longer count as clean for the purpose of this mechanic. If they empty their cargo and are still killed this counts as killing a clean player.
In terms of combat logging again I think they should take the simplest approach - if your game disconnects whilst you are in combat in open you are treated as having been killed. When you return to your station you will have lost your cargo and have to re-buy. If you don't have the re-buy the loan mechanic works as currently but with no limit to the amount you can loan. If you combat log in solo or in groups that allow it then there is no penalty. I appreciate this may be harsh on players with unstable connections but would draw the analogy with someone trying to run the game on a 6 year old laptop with no graphics card - the game is clearly online only and so if you don't have a reliable connection you are clearly not going to get the most out of the game.
So in the player killer vs combat logger scenario as we have at the moment, the victim is encouraged to avoid disconnecting so that their attacker gets one of their 'strikes' and is one step closer to being banned indefinitely.
That is the simple part that I think we can all get behind.
Piracy is more contentious but my 2c are as follows. Even in Solo you can get pirated by NPCs, although it happens far less frequently and with far less threat. So I think that it is fair to say that piracy is an acceptable behavior for a player. If you find being pirated frustrating there are a number of options, from changing to a more multi-purpose ship to finding quieter routes to eventually moving to a PvE group. Personally I think that pirating players in transport ships is pretty cheap given that they have little chance of defending themselves and so pose no more challenge than an NPC. Maybe this will change with the introduction of wings. For the meantime I would suggest that anybody using the 'pirate key' on another player immediately becomes visible to all players and NPCs in the system, with a bounty equal to their rebuy amount. I'd probably also look at improving the NPC security coverage in some of the core systems that are supposed to be more secure.
All this game needs is some sort of pro npc hunters for psychos running rampant in safe sectors or more consequences for bad actions. Separating pvp from the rest of the open is a terrible idea let alone nerfing the death penalty which is currently mild at best. I bought Elite: DANGEROUS and slowly starting to realize it is a lovely place full of unicorns, rainbows and cuddly bears...
yeah it's quite dull, oh well, i've seen it all, all types of crazy reasoning for why force shutting down the app/pulling plug is perfectly ok.
Remember those games were you had 3 lifes to complete the storyline with, if you died, you started from level 1, then they added continues with later games, then checkpoints, now you can just pull the plug anytime you want. and people are okay with this.
In the end, only the Dev's will know what is right, my instinct tells me they know this is a flaw, and hopefully somthing can be done, if not some form of middleground can be met, even though personnally, if your not committed to the risk of open, you should not be there anyway, and instead take advantage of the groups or solo mode.
Sigh. This is not an exploit. This is a design decision by the developer of the game. When/if they decide to change it, they will.
In EVE Online it was the same for long years, one could just log off and escape interdiction bubbles etc. Then the developer decided to change the game mechanics. In this case this is a bit more difficult, since the game was promised to have a single player offline version, and the missions already count down in real time, the last convince feature left for people who prefer to play alone is the ability to turn off the game whenever they feel like it.
In EVE Online it was the same for long years, one could just log off and escape interdiction bubbles etc. Then the developer decided to change the game mechanics. In this case this is a bit more difficult, since the game was promised to have a single player offline version, and the missions already count down in real time, the last convince feature left for people who prefer to play alone is the ability to turn off the game whenever they feel like it.
They implemented a timer if you log off manually but you can pull the plug or kill the task and it skips it.
Getting suspended/banned for killing a player kind of makes piracy a LITTLE difficult, don'tcha think? Piracy works by use of force. "Give me your cargo or die."
"Give me your cargo, clean hauler"
"LoL no you can't kill me you'll get banned. *FSD*"
Yes, I know you can "shoot to disable", but really, would YOU risk a ban, due to killing your target? Even then, we already see complaints about nuking the FSD/thrusters as is.
I'd also disagree that players killing clean players is against dev wishes. "Clean" vs. "Wanted" is already a flag monitored by the system. Had Frontier wanted to keep clean players safe, they'd simply code in a snippet that prevents clean players from being fired on. They didn't, and it's a pretty fundamental design choice, as opposed to "combat logging", which they've already taken steps to stop.
I do think some of the bounty systems need to be tweaked, and gameplay changed up a little. Anarchy zones should be pirate strongholds, where the Wanted people get the benefits of "civilization"....i.e. you shoot a wanted player in an anarchy system, the resident "police" come gunning for you (assuming said wanted person has good enough criminal standings.) Conversely, wanted people should have a helluva time navigating "safe" areas, via a combination of PC and NPC resistance.
If Frontier doesn't take steps to stop it, "Combat logging" is going to be the word of the day for Open. If traders can do it, PvPers can too, and I doubt the trader/bounty hunter types will be happy with "LoL kill every trader I want, pull plug to escape retribution, repeat as needed."
I have a not-so-fond memory of getting my backside blistered and grounded for a year because of one of those games. Dad had bought a brand new, really expensive, totally modern (for the time) 32" TV. I lost my last guy on level 7-2 of the original Mario Bros., and chucked the controller at the screen. Big crack right down the middle.
I'm sure Frontier is working on the combat logging thing, here's hoping they roll it out quickly.
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I'm well known for disliking piracy but even I agree with this one. While I don't like piracy and wouldn't miss it if it was gone, I accept that it's a part of the game when played appropriately (rather than used as an excuse for griefing).
Yep, agreed again... though the "fix" (whatever it turns out to be) for combat logging should be implemented at the same time as the "fix" for griefing.
During development Braben spoke about putting griefers and exploiters in a group all together and banning them from open. Seems appropriate.
Assuming they've created a working, balanced "pirating mechanic", sure. As to appropriate methods for handling these things, I don't pretend to have answers there. With the combat logging thing you really need to be able to differentiate between someone task killing and a genuine disconnect... the problem is that if you can't differentiate you need to err on the side of grace and have the game assume it was genuine. You can't penalise someone for going through a train tunnel and losing signal while playing ED on their way to work, but that's always going to be easy to exploit. That comes down to monitoring, official warnings for a pattern of behaviour, and eventual locking into an exploiter's group.
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As an example of why its fraught with issues;
1. Player A interdicts player B
2. Player B knowing they have a great internet connection chances he is hosting the instance
3. Player B severs the p2p connection with player A
4. Player B cpu takes control of player A's ship
5. Player B ruins NPC controlled ship
6. Player A logs in dead having appeard to have combat logged
There is no overriding authoritative server looking after the instance, matchmaking from my understanding simply places people into relevant instances ie hosted by you or me.
1. Player A interdicts player B
2. Player B knowing they have a great internet connection chances he is hosting the instance
3. Player B severs the p2p connection with player A
4. Player B cpu takes control of player A's ship
5. Player B ruins NPC controlled ship
6. Player A logs in dead having appeard to have combat logged
There is no overriding authoritative server looking after the instance, matchmaking from my understanding simply places people into relevant instances ie hosted by you or me.
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While I understand the difficulty I think that longer term a fix to combat logging has to be found.
FD have designed the game so that PvP combat is a large component. They want this, and they want the players that like it.
This issue breaks the mechanic wholesale and will likely result in PvP orientated players not wanting to play anymore. There are in-game mechanics for bugging out if you're in trouble (FSD) so it's not like this is the only way to 'tactically retreat' (run away).
There are knock on issues that affect the non-PvP crowd too..
If you can behave badly and simply combat log when (insert whatever in-game mechanic tries to stop you - police / bounty hunters / etc.) there's no consequence and the poor behaviour continues.
2 pence.
FD have designed the game so that PvP combat is a large component. They want this, and they want the players that like it.
This issue breaks the mechanic wholesale and will likely result in PvP orientated players not wanting to play anymore. There are in-game mechanics for bugging out if you're in trouble (FSD) so it's not like this is the only way to 'tactically retreat' (run away).
There are knock on issues that affect the non-PvP crowd too..
If you can behave badly and simply combat log when (insert whatever in-game mechanic tries to stop you - police / bounty hunters / etc.) there's no consequence and the poor behaviour continues.
2 pence.
if this is the case then you are right, that is going to be a right pig to fix!.
.....- Status