The General BugFixing/Playtesting thread for FFED3D+mods

[AndyJ]

Yeah the Ittiz pack is easily the most memory intensive, which i why i play your mod ontop of the default FFED3D game, just gives much more headroom.

So for those not using the Ittiz pack we can have no config tweak to try to avoid the ship poping effect? That's a shame as it definitely is one of the very noticeable 'downsides' of your version
...
I'll check it out again (with those lua files back in) but it was the normal non-Aniso mod version where i was noticing lots of death. And i'm used the the normal level of death in FFE (well JJFFE, which is what i've been playing for over a decade or so now!), so this felt like something extra. I'll run some checks to be sure, but it sure felt like once i removed the three other lua files (not the 'loadingscreentips' one) i suddenly wasn't dying each flight. I could be wrong, so i'll report back on this perception.

The Ittiz pack includes all of the updated models, and as I've said unfortunately you can't squeeze everything into 2GB. There is an undocumented 'model manager' cache pre-load setting of 99 rather than 0,1 or 2 in v1.03 for you if you really want to try and optimize textures & models Zack, but - it WILL blow up. Don't waste too much time please, it's a shot to nothing - but it will try to load everything as before ... but there's too much and that's why Dreamzzz switched to loading on demand in his unreleased builds....
oh yeah, the lua files had zero impact on the standard version of FFE, only the Aniso mod (that was broken) included them - the canon FFE build has no references to them at all. But I have noted references to the FPS allowing the AI to target you easier in alt.fan.elite (made by JJ) and the later revisions of JJFFE included a max FPS setting. I've added this into the ffed3daj.cfg file in case it's pertinent - maybe this and an unknown fix to AI combat in JJFFE 2.8+ (?) has altered things that you are familiar with. I'm coming at this 10 years late tbh, so what ever has been 'fixed' is already done - I've nothing previous to refer to unless someone can point me to anything of interest. bit like the Aniso mod, dunno if the original author is still out there and could supply a fix for the 0.9c source issues or if perhaps there was a older version of the source that anyone has with out the crashes? perhaps that may highlight where the issue is?

Please could I ask you to revist the first page or two and maybe update the comments/pictures. It looks a bit bleak if you don't read the whole thread - a lot of the issues are common to FFED3D in general (i.e. not having replacement models, which I'm not going to fix myself) or supporting texture zips not having been installed, so black skies - non-skinned ships... I'm a bit, no quite worried really, that a new visitor will just read the first two pages and think oh, that's well broken then - when much of it is actually due to models not having been replaced yet ... and I know there's the wonky field texture thing and ship names, but that's a Z-fighting issue with DirectX that isn't going to be resolved easily on the primitive models that are being drawn (i.e. the original shapes FFE draws) - it would be fixed though if the model was replaced with a .X replacement - but that's not what I'm personally trying to achieve.

(btw in case missed it from previous page, probably out of comms range until start of next month - fighting with pigs from hell - lol)

 

[gunbladelad]

Out of interest, is there any plan to add support for the FE2 video replacement for FFE?

Would always be a nice option for those that want it.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Out of interest, is there any plan to add support for the FE2 video replacement for FFE?

Would always be a nice option for those that want it.

You can add those files to the game currently iirc (i have them on the version using Ittiz base+AndyJ mod). If that is what you mean?

 

[Zak Gordon]

The Ittiz pack includes all of the updated models, and as I've said unfortunately you can't squeeze everything into 2GB. There is an undocumented 'model manager' cache pre-load setting of 99 rather than 0,1 or 2 in v1.03 for you if you really want to try and optimize textures & models Zack, but - it WILL blow up. Don't waste too much time please, it's a shot to nothing - but it will try to load everything as before ... but there's too much and that's why Dreamzzz switched to loading on demand in his unreleased builds....

Oooh! 99 you say? Awesome i'll give it a whirl on my prefered build (FFED3D with AndyJ ontop) and report back, explosions or not

What i have been doing (and it takes time) is resizing many of the game textures (stuff like where default was 64x64, then modded version is now 1024x1024, taking that down to 512x512 or 256x256 and seeing how it looks etc) to see about reducing the overall system load. As it turns out there are many example where the extra texture size (and memory usage) does not get reflected as always better or much improved in game, so i think over time i can see some memory saving from this that might be handy?

Please could I ask you to revist the first page or two and maybe update the comments/pictures. It looks a bit bleak if you don't read the whole thread - a lot of the issues are common to FFED3D in general (i.e. not having replacement models, which I'm not going to fix myself) or supporting texture zips not having been installed, so black skies - non-skinned ships... I'm a bit, no quite worried really, that a new visitor will just read the first two pages and think oh, that's well broken then - when much of it is actually due to models not having been replaced yet ... and I know there's the wonky field texture thing and ship names, but that's a Z-fighting issue with DirectX that isn't going to be resolved easily on the primitive models that are being drawn (i.e. the original shapes FFE draws) - it would be fixed though if the model was replaced with a .X replacement - but that's not what I'm personally trying to achieve.

(btw in case missed it from previous page, probably out of comms range until start of next month - fighting with pigs from hell - lol)

Yeah all comments were from testing and seeing what the build was about and what i could notice. So i'll make it crystal clear everything in this thread is from that perspective. It was not a review of anyone's work, but more things we could look into IF they were an issue or not etc. But yeah i hear you and will make some additions to the first post etc.

Have fun away and i look forward to your further work on this awesome mod

You do realise IF Elite: Dangerous is a single-player turkey, this is going to be my only means of Elite fun for decades to come! So yeah i'm here to help however i can.

 

[Steve]

just a drive-by to say that v1.03 is out there at the usual places.

Excellent! Playing now...

I'm heading off to run the gauntlet of this year's Correfoc at the Barcelona Mercé festival (a health&safety official's worst nightmare) so in case the demon pig does burn me to a bacon crisp this time, here's the latest and greatest. Hopefully will be back start of next month, or the Devils got me!
Ooops taxi in 4 hours... nite, nite!

Sounds, and looks, dangerous Have fun!!

 

[AndyJ]

Out of interest, is there any plan to add support for the FE2 video replacement for FFE?

Would always be a nice option for those that want it.

It wasn't a mod that I was aware of, but adding it to an alternate DATA folder and then editing the AVIPath in ffed3daj.cfg should get it working (e.g. AVIPath=DATA_FE2)
It is unfortunate that the videos are all 1 minute long... so the images will disappear when you try to click something. The radar disappears too during this time which I think may be a side-effect of the JJFFE 2.8a7 fix that stops game time during the videos. (perhaps that should become an optional fix via patches)
I want to look a little more closely at the video support anyway, as it seems that they end prematurely and then start subsequent videos with part of the previous one. I'm wondering if they were hooked at the right place in JJFFE. And I may be able to tweak things so that the replacements just display a single frame and to add optional transparency to the background too.

(@Steve: I survived the Correfoc, but my expensive mountain-biking rucksack is now a functional sieve as I forgot to pack my old one, oops!)

 

[AndyJ]

I've released a quick v1.04 patch that completes the DirectX code changes that I didn't quite have time to finish for v1.03.
Aspect ratio fixes are to be addressed in a future patch, I've not forgotten about this!

Changes:

2013-10-01 - Version 1.04:
+ DirectX code now fully supports switching between Windowed mode and Full-screen. Full-screen can be restored after being minimized, and after switching modes or restoring the game, colours are now correct and stars/dots are not lost from the maps.

Note that when switching modes or restoring from minimized, only those parts of the screen which are being drawn each frame will be redisplayed. Some areas such as the text in the Equipment page will be lost.
This is to be expected and it happens when the DirectX display device has had to be reset, clearing the screen.
Just switch to another view or page to restore a complete screen.

Edit: just to clarify my previous post - the videos are fine in JJFFE but they aren't rendering quite right in FFED3D, so the fault lies there and is what I'm wanting to dig into!

 

[Zak Gordon]

Quick update there! Nice.

i've used the '99' setting in the cfg file and you are right, it blows up each time so far, even not using the Ittiz base(which uses the most memory).

However one interesting thing i noticed was once the game has loaded up the initial screen and you wait, you can see the free memory amount slowly increase.

Once it is launched into the JJFFE version 2.8a7 screen, with the 'Y' prompt, 'free memory' is around 850000 (K), which can cause issues if you launch into the game music and starting animation (it will crash in the music).

However if you wait you notice the available free memory slowly rising, give it a few minutes on this JJFFE start screen and i can get the free memory around 1,065000 (K) (1.06MB).

The game will still crash however upon hitting 'y', but i'm wondering what the 'safe' amount of free memory is to ensure this does not happen? How much do we need to launch the game do you know?

 

[AndyJ]

Hi Zack

Free memory or available system RAM is not the significant metric here.
And what you are probably seeing with the changing values is Windows' own memory manager pushing out other data and applications into your swap file, to free up system memory.

It's the amount of memory that a single process tries to use that is critical - because there is an absolute limit of 2GB for a 32bit process (i.e. a game executable) to load itself and any resources into. You might have an 8GB PC with 6GB free, but if the game hits 2GB of memory usage in its process, then things will still fail...

It is difficult for you to see application stats for their memory usage in Windows XP if I recall correctly. I think to do so, you would need to install Process Explorer from Microsoft's TechNet.
(Vista/Windows 7 can use the Resource Monitor app, which is launched from a button in the task manager's performance tab and exposes the same figures.)
Unzip to a folder and run it before your chosen FFE exe. Once you've started the game, you'll find near the bottom of the list an entry for 'procexp.exe' and within that the FFE exe that is running. The private bytes/working set are showing its memory usage. (Commit/Working Set in Resource monitor)

You should see a BIG difference between FFED3D and FFED3DAJ in the same folder - FFED3D will nearly max out, and remember that this is without any extra 'bells & whistles' such as multiple skins. Ittiz's does max out (1.875GB) which is why assets fail to load, such as sound being missing.
What you won't be able to see, I think, in Process Explorer is 'Hard Faults/sec', where the process is causing the swap file to be used to make space for its data. This is really bad for performance when it happens.


Over on the Russian Elite-Games forum, I believe that Helga now has the game running on a 1.5GB XP laptop after I suggested that she turns off high-resolution clouds, skins and decreased the number of cached models, e.g. 30 or 35.
I think 1.5GB is probably as low as you can go without turning off models, but I've not spent much time analysing this! Without models then I'd imagine you can play ok with a 1GB system - it still ought to be a bit of an improvement over the GL or JJFFE windows versions ...

 

[Zak Gordon]

My XP setup is using nearly the max ram possible at 3GB for a 32bit system.

In XP i can use either Task Manager or the Process Explorer option as you mention (which is a great utility). Both will give you some info on memory usage within windows depending on what you are running, and while Process Explorer gives more detail, their numbers are pretty much exactly the same.

The numbers posted for available ram after running the instance of FFE i gave at the bottom of the first post are readings from both Task Manager and Process Explorer, rounded up to a general MB.

I have no issue running any of the versions of FFED3D on my PC (even Ittiz), so it is not my 3GB of 32bit ram that is a problem, it runs all versions with no need to adjust graphic settings and the game is smooth and FPS high etc.

My interest in the Memory thing is just trying to work out why in the default FFED3D, which uses more or less the same amount of memory as if running with your AndyJ mod, i can have all the models pre-loaded, but in your mod i can not. Especially when the standalone Ittiz version ALSO loads all models in at game start!!!

I have a feeling that as Ittiz is the most heavy graphically speaking, with most of all the new models and big textures etc, then surely your mod could have room to run with those ship models pre-loaded?

I also know you have looked at this and say it isn't possible, so i'm still a little confused over why i can have the preloaded ships in both default FFED3D and Ittiz, but not with your mod? As surely your mod sits between those versions in terms of memory usage (as my own memory readings posted shows)?

Ittiz uses a tonne load of memory compared to your mod (and default FFED3D) but it still manages to pre-load all ship models and run the game! I'm having a logic fault in my thought process over this

So this was my reason for wanting to experiment with texture sizes (less memory intensive etc) to see if there was a way to reduce overall memory usage to allow your mod to not need to selectively load the ship models and work more like FFED3D and Ittiz versions on this.

In terms of comparative game experience, it IS a real shame your version has to deal with the skin 'pop' thing when viewing ships and FFED3D and Ittiz do not. It's a little detail, but noticeable enough to make me want to spend the time reducing texture memory usage and have flexibility in your config file so i can test out lots of permutations. It is probably a shot to nothing, but i really like your mod the best, as the best version of FFED3D, so would love to work out a way to help solve this issue.

As a side note i've done lots of experimenting and even selecting wire-frame only in the config, have not been able to get the '99' (all pre-load) option to work yet!

So the question is, if Ittiz version has all models pre-loaded, and you play with his version as a base with your mod on top, why does your mod not work with all models pre-loaded, as your version does not add more models to the base Ittiz build, although it has the extra skin options for some ships so is that what is pushing it over the edge and requiring the loaded when viewed option?

It's not a huge issue ultimately, you can certainly get used to seeing the ships skins change in the shipyard screen as you click through them, but it is just a shame as it does reduce the immersion a little, which is a shame as your mod is easily the most complete and comprehensive version!

Anyway i'm glad you are around to discuss these things and are still working on it

 

[AndyJ]

I'll say one last time, please, it is not available memory that matters - unless you have a <1.5GB pc and then you're probably out of luck with FFED3D/AJ anyway. (Edit: Actually, with the original FFED3D textures, low resolution skies & the model cache @40 it is possible to load with just 1GB of memory)

You are looking at a value that Windows itself can affect by pushing pages out to your swap file.
It is the amount of memory that the process (.exe) is using that is the only important metric. This is the value you must watch and compare between builds or when altering settings etc. Free memory is pretty much meaningless unless there isn't any!
If you start removing models or lower texture resolutions then the usage value should been seen to decrease.

Once the FFED3D/AJ/Ittiz memory usage value starts reaching 1.8GB, things go bad as it has exhausted all of the memory that is available for it to use at this point. This is regardless of how much other memory is free; a 32bit process can only use up to 2GB (there are exceptions to this, but let's keep it simple)

Once FFED3D/AJ/Ittiz reaches the point of exhaustion, it will start failing to load things.
E.g. blank/white textures, or during the game perhaps it'll not be able to dynamically load the next music track or sound-effect. Or perhaps it'll just explode in a puff of general unhappiness at the title screen.


So anyway, I have tested it a little myself over lunch to see what current memory stats are like.
And beware as I think task manager can sometimes 'lag' in displaying the actual usage, so it's probably best to use PE or the resource viewer in Vista/Win7.

Have you definately tried preload 99 and multipleObjectSkins=0?
Because surprisingly this has just loaded everything with v1.04, with hi-res textures enabled, cabins=2 (using some upsampled images of the original 6 textures I've done) and nothing else was disabled.

It's using up to 1.54GB of ram, completes the intro run & the Thargon appears at the end (which uses the highest model, 465) so it has loaded everything... and music & videos are still ok too.

So it seems that it is now possible to load everything in if you have (probably) 2GB RAM or more in your pc/laptop, but at the expense of the extra skins. (you still get the base "consumer" skin & a separate police skin on the vipers)

Of course if new models are added, then this may revert back to having to use the model cache manager again.

Probably what has helped is that the previous build now ensures that no unnecessary textures are loaded (e.g. the extra terrain/glows from ittiz's pack) and also reassigning the complex space-station in the intro sequence to reuse the same one that the game uses has removed a duplication of its models & hi-res textures.
Ultimately I also want to ditch the coloured atmosphere textures too and do the colouring purely with a shader, which will free up even more memory in future.

so moving forward, then I guess that the multiple skins setting will only be enabled if preload is <99. It'll also mean objects won't be able to use additional textures for bump-map or decals etc unless you accept the trade-off of using the model cache. Maybe such enhancements aren't really very important though & just unnecessary bling if people really only want to have everything loaded!

That's not to say we still can't have variation in skins though, but the base skins would need to be reworked and predominately greyscale, have logos using solid colours, and then we can use the shader to do some selective re-colouring, such as the example I include for the cargo-crates - model 153.
When time allows, I'm wanting to rework the missile skin so that it can be re-coloured based on the skin id now being passed to it. I'll perhaps revisit the skeet & viper mk2 skins to see if these can be just be re-coloured in the same way & update the skin pack.

Edit: Read a bit more about the /LARGEADDRESSAWARE linker setting, probably on a more up-to-date page than I last looked at, and discovered it will actually push the accessible memory to 4GB for a process compiled with it when running on a 64bit OS (which I am) and to 3GB if running on 32bit XP/Win2000 system with the /3GB boot setting - although it seems like this can be prone to then causing video driver and instability issues link. I never used that setting back in the days of XP and wouldn't recommend anyone rushing in to use it without finding out more about it and any possible downsides.

A test build with this setting seems to run ok on my 4GB Win7 64bit system with everything turned on! yes, including multiple skins. Maybe it's not really going to prove useful for most 32bit users, but as things are shifting towards 64bit more and more anyway with new hardware, if I can prove this linker option doesn't cause problems on older 32bit OS's then it'll definitely be worth turning on to avoid banging against the current memory limit on 64bit
Memory usage is running at 2.1GB. I'm thinking that it might be worth putting up a quick v1.04-experimental build and seeing if it works fine for others or not.... hmmmm....

btw. the wireframe setting is just a legacy setting from FFED3D and doesn't stop models or textures being loaded. CTRL+F11 in game does the same, and toggles the mode. it's a developer aid really, it doesn't make the game look like wireframe elite of old I'm afraid.

 

[Steve]

I'm running Windows 8 (64 bit) and have 8Gb of memory, so I'd be happy to investigate any experimental builds

 

[AndyJ]

I'm running Windows 8 (64 bit) and have 8Gb of memory, so I'd be happy to investigate any experimental builds

"You have mail" if you didn't notice earlier!
If it works then I'll trial it via the usual places too to see if it still works on 32bit systems ok

 

[Zak Gordon]

@AndyJ

ok testing that method of 99(preload all) and MultipleObjectskins=0 (i think i had just reduced the amount of these skins from 10 to 5 before, but not switched it off completely?).

At the JJFFE version 2.8a7 'Yes' to accept prompt, Process Explorer shows the FFED3DAJ.exe using 1,356,604K.

WOW YES! the intro runs perfectly (nice to see the proper full skin on the Space Station as well!).

Once in game at Hope i can go to the shipyard menu and all the new models show up right away, no more pop! Awesome.

FFED3DAJ.exe is running at 1,358,204K.

I might have wriggle room and be able to test with MultipleObjectskins=1?

Anyway awesome stuff as this small pop effect was the only real distraction in your mod compared to the others, so i'm very happy

EDIT: ok testing has given me a max possible of 7 skins. 8 and it throws the error. My cfg settings here are:

modelPreload=99
ModelManagerFrequency=100
ModelCacheLimit=45
ModelManagerAgeDrop=500
multipleObjectSkins=1
maximumSkinsPerObject=7

Process Explorer shows FFED3DAJ.exe using 1,882,616K

All music is playing, Pink Fuel Range circle is there, and ALL models are preloaded!! I've completed the Wiccan Run and the Medical supplies to Soholia, so done a few things in game, all stable no issues

 

[Steve]

Can only echo what Zak is saying, although I can run 10 skins per object

modelPreLoad=99
ModelManagerFrequency=100
ModelCacheLimit=45
ModelManagerAgeDrop=0
multipleObjectSkins=1
maximumSkinsPerObject=10

and all runs smoothly

 

[AndyJ]

Great news guys! Will just highlight that cheeky chappy Steve is testing an experimental build on a 64bit OS, so he's able to load "a little bit" more bling (and possibly up to an extra 2GB!)

Given that the experimental build runs ok even on my old 1GB winXP 32bit laptop, I don't think the linker settings are going to cause any compatibility issues and so will use it on future builds.

I'll perhaps try and do another quick incremental release tomorrow once I've had a chance to update the readme file, just to add that extra headroom for 64 bit users. The only other addition will be so that it captures the mouse in full-screen to ensure that it doesn't escape to a 2nd monitor and accidentally lose focus/minimize the game.

 

[Styggron]

Great work as always AndyJ :smilie:

 

[EidLeWeise]

I'm just wondering, is there any way that I can configure the buttons of my joystick? (Got a Thrustmaster Hotas) I can use the main joystick, but it would be lovely to use the throttle, rudder, and buttons too.

Many thanks Eid

 

[Zak Gordon]

@EidLeWeise, we have no joystick routine for FFED3D (or even FFE originally). Your best bet might be if your stick is programmable? Then you can assign the keyboard commands to the Joystick movements? Even then i think you would find controlling your ship very hard due to the Newtonian physics thing, this might work better for the original game (or new games based on it like Oolite?) now i think on it?

@AndyJ, is there anyway we can move the default in-game configurations into the cfg file?

I ask because one of the very first things i do each time i start a new game is to pause, go into the in game menu and select 'Black' space (to avoid that 'tear' line in the middle of the milky-way when it is not black space) and switch 'Continuous Music' to 'off', and remove the 'Targeting Tunnels'.

I'm sure many others have their preferred settings also, so it would be great if people could customize these settings to a preferred default on new game start maybe?

Obviously this would just be 'nice' to have, it is not that big a deal doing the 'pre-flight' game setting change from default each time, and if it would be a lot of work to put them into the cfg file, probably best to leave as is

 

[EidLeWeise]

@zak it's worked quite well for other Newtonian physics games like i-war and Terminus, but I've gone back to using the keyboard, since 90% of the flying feels like it's being done on Autopilot anyway.

Thanks anyway, Eid