Walking in ships?

[jabokai]

You're assuming it's a players ship?

No, I also said in another post - "I think whoever it was above that said that some of this stuff should be against NPCs only, got it right - the thief still gets his jollies, and free ship."

I think this is what's being overlooked. People seem to have the impression that the moment they leave their ship there will be a gang of thieves waiting in the shadows, all scrambling over each other to rush aboard steal it and fly off.

There should be prep work involved, it should a difficult task full of danger for the perp. Ultimately he should only be able to even get aboard a ship (let alone power it up and fly off) if the owner leaves the hatch down unsecured and clears off for the day, or better still doesn't have some internal security system left on. Hell even buy a sentry drone to patrol the corridor if you want to leave the door open

There will be a load of thieves waiting to do just that. It's in the game, why would they not do it? Give someone a target and a way of hitting it - what do you think they'll do?

What is the prep work? What is the danger? Like, you know, specifically! This again relates to my gameplay/prose thing - I want to understand, in gameplay terms, what this would actually mean. E.g. Buying a lockpick and paying a fine?

If the countermeasure was as simple as closing and locking my door, I'd be fine with that... but then when would someone's ship ever be compromised?

 

[Oss133]

The solution, to me, sounds very simple.

A shipjacker is able to steal a ship. Any ship. There can be whatever gameplay you want, but it can be done.

A player's insurance policy covers theft of ship and contents with no penalty.

Result: shipjacker has all the gameplay they want. Player doesn't suffer because of it.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Dunno, all that work, all that proparation... and in the end you're killed and such. No one wants to do try it again- wasted mechanics- no reason to implement it...

My point of view, of course.

So imagine you're out for a stroll on some planet, and you happen to come across a ship on your travels that has its hatch down and far off to the horizon you see its owner, shooting dinosaurs, wouldn't you be curious and go have a look inside while the owner is away?

If you are curious, would you try and power up the engines? And if the engines fired up would you be tempted to fly it somewhere where you can come back and retrieve it at some other time?


LOL Komemiute, I'm just trying to dangle a carrot to see how far you'd go with this. If you wouldn't 'steal' that ship then fair play, I guess the argument I'm making is if there was a ship there, unsecured, hatch open, and I tried to fly off in it only to be greeted with a pop up saying you can't do that, or worse an invisible wall stopping me from setting foot on the hatchway ladder, It'll be a bit disappointing.

If I could board that ship knowing the owners co-pilot is still aboard and could kill me for intruding, or knowing that if the internal security system is online it could zap me, I'd be wary of doing so. But at least I could if I wanted. I wouldn't walk up to that ship knowing absolutely that never in a million years will I get aboard that open ship and fly off with it because the mechanics prevent it 100% of the time.

I would like to think Elite is a game full of possibilities and consequences. Not artificial barriers.

 

[NeilF]

The solution, to me, sounds very simple.

A shipjacker is able to steal a ship. Any ship. There can be whatever gameplay you want, but it can be done.

A player's insurance policy covers theft of ship and contents with no penalty.

Result: shipjacker has all the gameplay they want. Player doesn't suffer because of it.

Sound to open to madness IMHO. Thousand of players running around trying to steal other players ships.

Still recon this scenarion needs to be an exceptional case, and only involve NPC ships - Along the lines of my proposed special "piracy" mission to steal an NPC craft and deliver it to the individual who set the mission.


Anyway, I suspect greater minds than ours are on the case

 

[NeilF]

Someone can maybe refresh my failing memory here but I seem to remember that the bit about stowing away, stealing ships etc was mention very briefly in a dev diary/ In fact it was one sentance was it not? The point I'm making is that it was really just thrown out as a possibility for additional gameplay, it hadn't been fully fleshed out. I got the feeling at the time it was something that had not been fully thought through or discussed. Maybe I'm wrong but that was my take.

Good point!

 

[Oss133]

Sound to open to madness IMHO. Thousand of players running around trying to steal other players ships.

Still recon this scenarion needs to be an exceptional case, and only involve NPC ships - Along the lines of my proposed special "piracy" mission to steal an NPC craft and deliver it to the individual who set the mission.


Anyway, I suspect greater minds than ours are on the case

Not sure what causes the madness. You get out of your ship. I steal it. You return to your ship. It has been replaced. You are informed that this has happened and that you have not been penalised in any way. I am now flying around in your old battered ship getting chased by the police and bounty hunters. You go on your merry in a brand new shiny ship no worse off than you were before.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So I have played countless hours, gotten the ship I have dreamed of, kitted it out with all the security and bam... it still gets stolen, because despite all this there are still enough people trying, not all at once sure but still it happens.

**** happens. Even in game. Space is dangerous place after all. Also you really need to get over this "enough people trying". It doesn't work that way. 100 people won't sit at the station and won't wait for your ship to arrive.

The Insurance for replacing ship was huge, it has cost me tons of hours mining, trading, whatever and now I have to do it again to ensure I have insurance for this replacement ship.

I don't care what it cost the person who stole it, i know what it has cost me.

So? In space other players can destroy your precious ship - and you get same result. What's difference here?

Why would I ever leave my ship if this was a real risk? I know from day one pretty much everything I want to do can be done from the cockpit, so why leave my ship at the mercy of a potential theft, no matter how remote, just to go visit a bar or whatever it is I can do around a space station or on a planet.

Why I would leave house if there's chance to get robbed, hit by car, get killed in stupid accident? Breaking in my house is probably more easy than it will be breaking in actual space ship in ED. So why I am doing this? Because I want to communicate, see the world, enjoy walking...you know, that sort of thing which gives you idea that you are in actual world.

As a concept, it sounds potentially, like a terrible idea and I would understand players doing everything they can to remove this element from their game by not buying expansions, staying offline, etc... and those who like the idea at first will likely join them offline after it happens to them until in the end only the hardcore will persist online in the all areas.

You know that you can play solo online, getting all goodies, sharing data, but not meeting anyone, including potential thief of your ship?

I have played enough MMO's to know that you promote player persistence and time spent in game and PvP concepts, whether battles or other have to be managed and carefully designed. Many play FPS games because they don't lose anything other than a bit of pride... death is a relatively meaningless stat, but here it is money and money is either time or potentially real life money for those who don't have the time to invest (and assuming you can buy credits with cash, as has been mentioned).

Ahh, so we finally getting somewhere those other MMOs, and griefers in them. Well, see, everytime you loose in Elite, you loose much more than pride. In old Elites it was perma death. No kiddin, every wrong step turned to be final one. That's how this game is. Also I think you have very wrong idea how griefer's mind actually works - most of them are like script kiddies. If it's easy enough to do, they'll do it, trough learning process. Another part of them are skillful but bored people. Give them enough stuff to chew on, make stealing ships very challenging, and you get not only less *actual* griefing, but also new dimension of game play.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

What is the prep work? What is the danger? Like, you know, specifically! This again relates to my gameplay/prose thing - I want to understand, in gameplay terms, what this would actually mean. E.g. Buying a lockpick and paying a fine?

If the countermeasure was as simple as closing and locking my door, I'd be fine with that... but then when would someone's ship ever be compromised?

Well people have mentioned there would be dire consequences if you failed, and that it wouldn't be a simple task to undertake. I'll try to flesh it out more...

Its about balance and risk vs reward. If the risks are extremely high only the really dedicated will try, and those on a specific mission (player run mission, or NPC mission). So that in-itself could deter the run-of-the-mill griefer.

What would those risks be? Well those would be WHOLLY determined by the ships owner. If he leaves his ship unsecured, hatchway open, internal security switch off, no sentry bots etc, then obviously an opportunist thief is going to have an easy time of it.

Now if the owner is careful he'll switch on his security system, online a sentry drone if he has one, and watch the hatch close behind him before he leaves the vicinity of his ship. That alone would suffice to protect him from opportunists. So its not as if its a long drawn out thing you have to do every time you disembark. A few clicks of the mouse and you're good to go.

Now for a dedicated thief, someone who does it for a living (if you can call it that), or someone whose been given a specific mission to steal such and such ship, then maybe there could be devices that override different levels of security. Starting with the hatchway, then possibly disabling the sentry drone (if there is one), and then the internal security system, and finally overriding the controls so the ships computer accepts his command input - allowing him to fire up the engines.

So there's several dangerous stages he must overcome and failure at any stage will be instant death and the loss of all the expensive equipment he needed for each stage. That failure could be skill-based or just simply a roll of the dice - depends how interactive FD make it. Add fines, bounties, and basically the same criminal consequences you get from piracy and thats what curbs it as a commonplace occurrence.

The crucial aspect is it has to be balanced between risk and reward so its not a common thing to occur. I honestly believe the work needed is worth it even if we only hear of one ship jacking a week when the game goes live. Just that alone adds to the immersion and tension. Keeps alive the feeling in this game that anything is possible.

 

[Riandor]

**** happens. Even in game. Space is dangerous place after all. Also you really need to get over this "enough people trying". It doesn't work that way. 100 people won't sit at the station and won't wait for your ship to arrive.

So? In space other players can destroy your precious ship - and you get same result. What's difference here?

Why I would leave house if there's chance to get robbed, hit by car, get killed in stupid accident? Breaking in my house is probably more easy than it will be breaking in actual space ship in ED. So why I am doing this? Because I want to communicate, see the world, enjoy walking...you know, that sort of thing which gives you idea that you are in actual world.

You know that you can play solo online, getting all goodies, sharing data, but not meeting anyone, including potential thief of your ship?

Ahh, so we finally getting somewhere those other MMOs, and griefers in them. Well, see, everytime you loose in Elite, you loose much more than pride. In old Elites it was perma death. No kiddin, every wrong step turned to be final one. That's how this game is. Also I think you have very wrong idea how griefer's mind actually works - most of them are like script kiddies. If it's easy enough to do, they'll do it, trough learning process. Another part of them are skillful but bored people. Give them enough stuff to chew on, make stealing ships very challenging, and you get not only less *actual* griefing, but also new dimension of game play.

I have played plenty of games where this is the case too... but the intent for Elite is surely to promote online play together, not punish and in those old games you saved, all the time, so in essence there want a lot that could go wrong really unless you forgot.

I also don't need real life in games, I play games for fun.

I do not worry about griefers, i worry about exploiters who use this mechanic to make large amounts of cash and if it so hard to do, why do it ever, therefore why build the mechanic?

Whilst my ship is replaced, is my cargo replaced? And in space I can attempt to flee, bargain, fight back...stolen I have no control over so it is entirely different.

I do love diversity in games and interesting game play, but I have not seen one compelling argument for ship theft at all so far from anyone and i am sure i have done little to dissuade those who think it a good idea, that's cool too... its all opinions at the end of the day.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I do love diversity in games and interesting game play, but I have not seen one compelling argument for ship theft at all so far from anyone and i am sure i have done little to dissuade those who think it a good idea, that's cool too... its all opinions at the end of the day.

I thought NeilF gave a pretty compelling argument for ship theft....

You're assuming it's a players ship? A potential way out of these problems is if the first person element is very much geared towards NPC play. ie: You're given a mission to get to a particular space station to steal a protype craft. You have to sneak/fight your way onboard the craft, then fly it off and fight your way to the vessel waiting to collect you and the stolen craft...

...albeit in regards to NPC ship theft. But expanding it to player ship theft I'm sure ED will give rise to player run corps & organizations that will be at war with each other and the opportunity to steal, scuttle, damage and destroy enemy hardware will add a tonne of excitement for them.

 

[jabokai]

...then maybe there could be devices that override different levels of security. Starting with the hatchway, then possibly disabling the sentry drone (if there is one), and then the internal security system, and finally overriding the controls so the ships computer accepts his command input - allowing him to fire up the engines.

So there's several dangerous stages he must overcome and failure at any stage will be instant death and the loss of all the expensive equipment he needed for each stage. That failure could be skill-based or just simply a roll of the dice - depends how interactive FD make it. Add fines, bounties, and basically the same criminal consequences you get from piracy and thats what curbs it as a commonplace occurrence.

The crucial aspect is it has to be balanced between risk and reward so its not a common thing to occur. I honestly believe the work needed is worth it even if we only hear of one ship jacking a week when the game goes live. Just that alone adds to the immersion and tension. Keeps alive the feeling in this game that anything is possible.

Skill-based how - mini-games? Because it's hard to see a way for the overriding security thing you talk about to be anything else. Again, I just see all of this as a whole other game in itself. (Oh, and I really, really hate mini-games! )

It won't add much to immersion, or tension, I don't feel. The victim will get, at worst, an insurance replacement very quickly. Your lists before of revenge/chase/etc probably wouldn't happen for most people... they'd either be ed off and accept their replacement, or simply shrug... and then accept their replacement.

I'm not sure I understand how this particular thing adds to the feeling that anything is possible when we already accept that so much is impossible - you cannot destroy a space station, you cannot split an asteroid up into pieces, you cannot fly faster than 500m/s in combat flight mode.

Meh, as said above, it's just opinions, no rights and wrongs.

 

[Riandor]

I thought NeilF gave a pretty compelling argument for ship theft....


...albeit in regards to NPC ship theft. But expanding it to player ship theft I'm sure ED will give rise to player run corps & organizations that will be at war with each other and the opportunity to steal, scuttle, damage and destroy enemy hardware will add a tonne of excitement for them.

I had similarly argued FOR missions to steal NPC craft and in principle I even like the idea of being able to steal all ships kinda cool, but it in all cases that I can think of it falls short in a real implementation scenario.

Obviously information on walking around and potential death scenarios are non existent, but so far we have seen that in space death is an inconvenience, so i am not sure that walking around will be a lot different, if it is even possible.

With that assumption in mind, how am I as a potential thief put off?

Let's even assume that the person who lost their ship immediately gets a full replacement... to that end what is the value in theft? You have glorified it, it's a victimless crime and as a result it will be done over and over and over.

This strikes me as a break in immersion in as far as insurance goes (assuming it doesn't cost me to renew) and a game promoting huge profit capabilities with potentially little drawbacks as long as you have enough people who are good at it.

Now imagine what happens if I LET you steal my ship and we share in the profits, I get a new ship, you get a ship and flog it on the black market or worse to players for real money outside of the game. Ahh but bounties... ahh but I have a 3rd friend or character that is a bounty hunter who can milk that too.

All you need again are enough making in game credits through countless hours to allow for this to build up and you have a self sustaining business model.

So we have gone from frustration to totally exploitable and still I don't see a working solution, BUT that is because we have zero concept on the walking expansion as a whole and most importantly DEATH, which is THE most critical concept of this type of game.

 

[Zplintz]

The bountied player has to pay his/her own bounty.

Shouldn't the title of this thread be bouncing around your ship desperately trying to grab hold of something fixed down?

 

[ianw]

I don't have anything against the idea in principle but I'm intrigued to see what they will come up with.

Firstly it seems that Frontier are mainly known for space games - invented the genre - masters of procedural generation etc. etc.

AFAIK their speciality isn't FPS.

If you need a dentist you're not going to see your lawyer to let them have a pop at it.

Secondly - I'm struggling to see what would entice me off my very valuable customised lovingly cared for spaceship if there was a risk - however small - of losing it.

Pretend beer at the bar v loss of my pretend spaceship - nah

Pretend shopping at the spacemall v loss of my pretend spaceship - nah

Assassination mission v loss of my pretend spaceship that is probably worth a lot more than the mission - nah

The point being - if I lock my ship - set the sentry - take the ignition keys - put a single hair in the door jam so I can see if someone has been there;

Yet I can still lose my ship just because someone has got the very rare Acme spaceship stealer device then it really would be a stupid risk to take and particularly galling to get back and find it gone whilst I was away and not able to defend it in person.

 

[Bromley86]

Whilst my ship is replaced, is my cargo replaced? And in space I can attempt to flee, bargain, fight back...stolen I have no control over so it is entirely different.

A number of really good points in those sentences. Firstly, fighting off an attack by other players (or NPCs) in space is an interactive event. Walking back to see your ship has gone is not. Okay, it could be replaced, but that's adding another level of suspension of belief that's otherwise unnecessary (00:00 Fully laden ship stolen. 00:01 Replacement ship appears, fully laden).

Then there's the unintended consequence. Say you get your ship & cargo back, so no harm. What's to stop you agreeing to defraud the insurance company by leaving your ship open and the onboard defences off so your buddy can steal it? Sure, it might be risky for the friend to make it out of there alive, but he can just keep generating new characters until he succeeds. Given that we might be playing for 6 months to get together the cash to afford this ship, that's 3 months profit each for a day's work.

EDIT: Sorry for saying what you later said Riandor, I didn't refresh the page.

 

[Komemiute]

Albeit very interesting, this is moving WAY too fast. I'm pulling out of here.

@Erimus: no problem . I like to discuss stuff. I have never been upset at you or anything.

 

[Riandor]

A number of really good points in those sentences. Firstly, fighting off an attack by other players (or NPCs) in space is an interactive event. Walking back to see your ship has gone is not. Okay, it could be replaced, but that's adding another level of suspension of belief that's otherwise unnecessary (00:00 Fully laden ship stolen. 00:01 Replacement ship appears, fully laden).

Then there's the unintended consequence. Say you get your ship & cargo back, so no harm. What's to stop you agreeing to defraud the insurance company by leaving your ship open and the onboard defences off so your buddy can steal it? Sure, it might be risky for the friend to make it out of there alive, but he can just keep generating new characters until he succeeds. Given that we might be playing for 6 months to get together the cash to afford this ship, that's 3 months profit each for a day's work.

EDIT: Sorry for saying what you later said Riandor, I didn't refresh the page.

No worries and EXACTLY! There is nothing wrong with the idea, it just at present seems to easy to unravel. Oh so happy for Frontier to prove me wrong though.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Say you get your ship & cargo back, so no harm. What's to stop you agreeing to defraud the insurance company by leaving your ship open and the onboard defences off so your buddy can steal it? Sure, it might be risky for the friend to make it out of there alive, but he can just keep generating new characters until he succeeds.

If you left your car on the street unlocked with all the doors wide open and it goes missing, your insurance company may be reluctant to pay out (if you told them ). In 3300 I would imagine there would be someway for the insurance company to detect whether or not adequate security was onlined prior to a new pilot flying off with it. I'd imagine the ships computer is constantly sending digital packets of info all over the place to different agencies, navigation, newsfeeds, trade hub updates etc. A constant direct feed to the galactic insurance agency being one of the prime ones.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Albeit very interesting, this is moving WAY too fast. I'm pulling out of here.

@Erimus: no problem . I like to discuss stuff. I have never been upset at you or anything.

Hehe, this has been a great thread. It started off with a bit of hostility against the walking in ships and on planets feature and has evolved into healthy debate about what we can and can't do once its implemented!

A great evolution of a thread if ever there was one :smilie:

 

[NeilF]

Not sure what causes the madness. You get out of your ship. I steal it. You return to your ship. It has been replaced. You are informed that this has happened and that you have not been penalised in any way. I am now flying around in your old battered ship getting chased by the police and bounty hunters. You go on your merry in a brand new shiny ship no worse off than you were before.

If the victim basically loses nothing, and is basically unaware of the theft why even involve them = Only allow NPC ship theft within a dedicate mission.

Players will be attached to their ship. They've invested time, effort and credits. And the thought of other players getting their hands on them (so easily) could prove annoying = Only allow NPC ship theft within a dedicate mission.

Players may have personalised their ships with logos/colour schemes. This will again prove frustrating to individuals who have invested time in them = Only allow NPC ship theft within a dedicate mission.

Some ships I believe will have logos only earned by Kickstart contributions. Will these logos just magically disappear if a standard player steals such a ship? = Only allow NPC ship theft within a dedicate mission.

I recon, only allow NPC ship theft within a dedicate mission.