A plea for FD to focus next on balancing -maintenance- costs for larger ships

[Yokai]

The recent 1.1 combat balance changes were a step in the right direction, in that a small viper cannot now brainlessly kill an Anaconda, Python, etc. This has the positive effect of making larger ships more desirable, whereas before there was no compelling reason to move into larger ship classes at all (from a min-max combat perspective).

However, there remains one incredibly strong disincentive to move up into larger ship classes, and that is the completely egregious maintenance costs that become astronomical with each larger ship.

A basic tenet of cost balancing should be "It should take a lot of money/time to initially acquire a larger ship, but once you're in that new ship, your ongoing maintenance costs should be roughly equal to every other ship regardless of size".

It already takes a LOT of grinding to move into the T7/Clipper/Python range, and quite a bit more to move into the T9/Anaconda range. That should be the only real pain point: moving up into the next larger ship you want. But something is VERY wrong when a Viper or Cobra or (yes, even) a Asp pilot can shrug off complete destruction of their ship and recoup the cost with at most 1 or 2 sales of a cargo hold, versus the situation as it is today for players in T7 and above, where even partial hull damage can require 2 hours of trade grinding to recoup the loss!

I'm a damn good trader. I can grind 16,000 cr/ton/hour non-stop. That's roughly 633,000 credits per 9 minutes, on average. I run a 272-ton "trader with teeth" Python.
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=305,5TE5TQ5TQ4yS5Rs01Q3wK,2-B69Y7_6QB69Y8I,0AA0AA0AA08c08c0727Pc4zM2Uc
(Don't pay too much attention to my weapon loadout: they're cheap and I'm experimenting)

If I were to lose my ship entirely, that's 7.4 MILLION cr just to rebuy the ship. That's 1.7 hours of solid, intensive trade grinding at max cash flow possible.

Now compare that figure (which is WAY cheaper than for an A-class Anaconda) with:

A-class Viper: 137 THOUSAND cr to rebuy. I can sell one single load of cargo in the Python and earn enough to do this twice over.
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=30M,7u57u55QH5QH3we01Q,2-4s4s4s3I4s4s3c,05U7Pc7dq4wO

I'm certainly not the only one to see the HUGE disincentive here. If a viper costs 137K to rebuy, honestly a Python should cost at most 250K to rebuy. An Anaconda should cost at most 400K to rebuy. And everything else should be scaled in between those two points for a relatively flat maintenance curve.

 

[Raf von Thorn]

I dont get your problem.

Python insurance too expensive? Dont fly the Python! Viper insurance cheap? Great, fly the Viper!

 

[Vincent Starson]

The TTR or time to recover in this game is unbalanced. A death in a small ship takes little time to recover compared to the amount of time it takes to recover in larger ships.

The large TTR on large ships indirectly encourages combat logging in open, or for the player to play in solo. It also directly encourages using smaller ships for combat.

I remember a thread where Sandro Sammarco (spelling?) agreed that the time to recover for traders is unbalanced at the moment, and wants to improve upon it. I am looking forward to the changes they have planned.

I am patient, it's only been a couple of weeks since he said that. I hope in one of the next few Dev Updates between now and 1.2 they will mention it.

They are human and make mistakes sometimes, but they fix it. The content they've provided that isn't broken is AWESOME so thanks for that (city lights, planet shaders, cockpit lighting, hyperspace audio, etc).

 

[Skip Intro]

The rebuy costs are relative to the original costs plus modules. It would be extraordinary to think that a ship worth dozens or even hundreds of millions should have a rebuy cost of just double something that costs a fraction of that. A 200MCr plus Anaconda three times the re-buy of a Viper?

Also, not everyone has the desire to have a 272t Python that grinds 633KCr every 9 minutes. You do, and so have the ability to cover any maintenace cost or rebuy, just by putting time into it. I presume that you have ground lots of credits for the bank and you're not short of at least one 7.5MCr re-buy?

Try not to break your big ship, is my advice to you, but even if you do, it's just a hour and a half to make up the cash.

 

[Yokai]

The rebuy costs are relative to the original costs plus modules. It would be extraordinary to think that a ship worth dozens or even hundreds of millions should have a rebuy cost of just double something that costs a fraction of that. A 200MCr plus Anaconda three times the re-buy of a Viper?

Also, not everyone has the desire to have a 272t Python that grinds 633KCr every 9 minutes. You do, and so have the ability to cover any maintenace cost or rebuy, just by putting time into it. I presume that you have ground lots of credits for the bank and you're not short of at least one 7.5MCr re-buy?

Try not to break your big ship, is my advice to you, but even if you do, it's just a hour and a half to make up the cash.

You and the above posters are missing the essential point:

It should not take 1-3 HOURS for any one player to recover from the same exact proportional damage when other players can recover from that same proportional damage in literally 5 minutes. That's not even close to balanced. If the big ships were ONLY for trading, your argument would hold water, but we have 3 big ships clearly designed for at least "multipurpose" combat

 

[brumster]

It seems to be that, purely from a ship progression perspective, the cost to acquire goes up exponentially.... the maintenance costs go up exponentially.... the ability to earn does not. Cargo capacity/trading ability pretty much maxes out, as do commodity prices, but likewise other revenue streams do not net you any more cash just because you happen to be in a Python. Your average NPC bounty is still 20,000CR (or whatever)...

Like you say, I don't have a problem with it, I'm just happy flying around in my Cobra. I've just dropped all aspiration of flying in anything bigger than an Asp, really. Not whinging about it, just saying. The critical thing Frontier should bare in mind, though, is that the net effect is I will probably get bored and tune out of the game far sooner... again, not whinging, just stating a fact.

 

[Phier]

I traded in my python pre nerf due to high costs, but I don't think the costs were too high, just too high for what I was using it for.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

It should not take 1-3 HOURS for any one player to recover from the same exact proportional damage when other players can recover from that same proportional damage in literally 5 minutes. That's not even close to balanced. If the big ships were ONLY for trading, your argument would hold water, but we have 3 big ships clearly designed for at least "multipurpose" combat

It is not mandatory to operate a large ship.

These are reserved for the wealthy who don't care about such things ...

I also IMO this is the least of FD's concerns!

 

[CMDR Pfo]

The real problem is that there isn't a better way to make money with bigger ships. You just do the same activities you do in smaller ones for a slightly larger payout. The insurance costs are a linear scale across all ship classes.

There are no real big payout opportunities as you move up to the highest class ships.

 

[Phier]

The real problem is that there isn't a better way to make money with bigger ships. You just do the same activities you do in smaller ones for a slightly larger payout. The insurance costs are a linear scale across all ship classes.

There are no real big payout opportunities as you move up to the highest class ships.

I think the real problem there isn't anything to DO with bigger ships. The game has content up to Cobra.

 

[TheoZ]

Nice topic commander,

I think I have found out an easy to apply (hopefully) solution to tackle this problem. It is related with taking missions too.

I am an anaconda owner, but I do remember from the time I had a Type-7 transport not a lot of missions (after even being allied with the relative faction) were appealing.

Filling up my cargo space from the market, jumping to my desired destination, and back, and repeat and repeat and repeat, that made me get the credits. But this process is kind of boring, you have to agree.

A way to avoid just getting back and forth and not even looking the bulleting board, is to get missions that are intended to be for bigger vessels.

Instead of just asking for 33 or 50 cargo of a desired from a station commodity to get 100k or 300k cr, why not having missions with required cargo space of 100 or even 400tons (with the respective profit)?

What do you think commanders?

 

[Skip Intro]

You and the above posters are missing the essential point:

It should not take 1-3 HOURS for any one player to recover from the same exact proportional damage when other players can recover from that same proportional damage in literally 5 minutes. That's not even close to balanced. If the big ships were ONLY for trading, your argument would hold water, but we have 3 big ships clearly designed for at least "multipurpose" combat

I don't have a big trading ship, but I do have a Cobra. If I lose this without having the re-buy cost, it will take me significantly longer than 90 minutes to grind credits to recreate it, upgrade it, etc. You are looking at this only from your end of the telescope, I think.

 

[Tigga]

Nope, I'm cool with this. We just need tougher NPCs, as well as higher rewards for killing NPCs. This means bigger ships will scale for things which aren't trading.

 

[BishopC]

I do understand the problem, and I agree partially. But I think I know how the current system works, and it is quite transparent.
It is based on the cr/hour you can make in a specific ship. Meaning, of course you can make the rebuy of a small ship in a T9 in 5 minutes. But earning the rebuy in a small ship will take you 90 minutes, just as well as the rebuy for your Anaconda will take you 90 minutes in an Anaconda.

 

[Telnets]

Its not for everyone, but currently I have a Python with 276 cargo, which i can get about the same cr/h as the OP.. thats roughly 4.2 million an hour depending on the market at a given time with the routes I have found.. So yeah, something happens to it, Im spending the next 2 hours making up for it.. but I certainly dont mind it.. it makes the risk vs reward balanced I find..

With that said, I only trade with my python.. probably a waste of a python but that's okay.. I have an ASP in the hanger which I actually hunt with.. the loss of that is only an hour of my time to recoup.. i can live with that

 

[Yokai]

I don't have a big trading ship, but I do have a Cobra. If I lose this without having the re-buy cost, it will take me significantly longer than 90 minutes to grind credits to recreate it, upgrade it, etc. You are looking at this only from your end of the telescope, I think.

I do understand the problem, and I agree partially. But I think I know how the current system works, and it is quite transparent.
It is based on the cr/hour you can make in a specific ship. Meaning, of course you can make the rebuy of a small ship in a T9 in 5 minutes. But earning the rebuy in a small ship will take you 90 minutes, just as well as the rebuy for your Anaconda will take you 90 minutes in an Anaconda.

You two (and the folks who agree with this assertion that "it takes just as long to recoup cost for a small ship IN a small ship as it does to recoup cost for large ship IN a large ship") are wrong. You're wrong because of the fundamental confusion many players seem to have with factoring in the _time_ element of trading. It's the same fundamental problem as people who think "my 2300 cr/ton trade route is better than your 1800 cr/ton trade route".

Let's do the math with fully A-classed ships, assuming you're a good trader capable of finding trade routes that are worth 16,000 cr/ton/hour (which won't vary significantly regardless of ship size/speed/cargo capacity--it's a PER TON unit of measure):


Viper: 22 cargo space x 16,000 cr/ton/hour = 352,000 cr/hour = 23 minutes to earn the insurance rebuy
Cobra: 60 cargo space x 16,000 cr/ton/hour = 960,000 cr/hour = 22 minutes to rebuy the Cobra (and only 9 minutes to rebuy the Viper)

Python: 272 cargo space x 16,000 cr/ton/hour = 4,352,000 cr/hour = 102 minutes to rebuy the Python

That's not good scaling for an ongoing maintenance cost.

Next consider that it's dirt easy and fast to get into a Cobra, and only a handful of hours from there to move into a T6. Most people can _easily_ earn at T6/Asp rates with very little time invested. The T6/Asp can fund their Viper/Cobra rebuys at the following rate

T6: 100 cargo space x 16,000 cr/ton/hour = 1,600,000 cr/hour = 5 minutes to rebuy a Viper, and 13 minutes to rebuy a Cobra.

So _most_ players are going to be able to fully rebuy their Viper/Cobra in 5 to 13 minutes, while Python owners require 102 minutes per rebuy. DOES. NOT. SCALE.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I agree that big ship balance should be the next balance pass, but I don't think its the maintenance that's the problem. It's lack of income scaling for big ships.

 

[Yokai]

I agree that big ship balance should be the next balance pass, but I don't think its the maintenance that's the problem. It's lack of income scaling for big ships.

That is certainly another way to solve the scaling problem. Either reduce the maintenance costs or increase the earning rate. Either way works.

 

[BishopC]

sorry for typing, on phone
fair calculation, it is steeper. but if you bring up "a t6 can earn money for a cobra", why don't you bring up the same calculation with a t9 for python? according to your calculations, i can make they rebuy for the python in a t9 in 20 minutes (whoops, actually it's about 50 minutes for 8 mill. my bad).
DOES.TOTALLY.SCALE.

you also have to factor in the threat assessment, dying to a pirate in a small ship = high risk
dying to a pirate in a python or conda = i don't think so.

 

[Phier]

That is certainly another way to solve the scaling problem. Either reduce the maintenance costs or increase the earning rate. Either way works.

I like having reasons to have more than one ship in game. An even scaling in power, earning or otherwise, would remove that need.