The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Here's a great resource for you all: a timline of different things related to SC. It's still in early development but already very useful.

Timelines Available at the Moment:

  • Design Posts - Collection of documents explaining major game mechanics.
  • Monthly Reports - An easy overview of all monthly reports.
  • Funding - All major funding milestones with easy links to their Letter from the Chairman.
  • Roadmap - Looking ahead to what is planned for release and when!
  • Shows - Around the Verse and Reverse the Verse + Transcripts, meet the devs and 10ftc.

http://www.starcitizen-galaxy.com/timeline/


Source: http://forums.starcitizenbase.com/topic/14565-star-citizen-timelines/
 
Last edited:
So wait, you are telling me that it is perfectly ok for an "early access" game to charge people, in addition to the initial money you gave them to develop the game, for every single piece of development that they do, including items to be used and tested in the game? Just wow. Do you realize what you even just said?

Might as well let CIG give it a try to prove it can be done right. You've had 15+ years of the so called experienced game companies do it the other way and it has yielded nothing of any real value. If CIG so much as create 35% of what they promised they still have done better than EA/Sony/Blizzard/Activision/Ubisoft/Microsoft in the past 15+ years. I could probably calculate how much I gave to those companies after they released and more than likely my reaction would be, "Wow, just wow. WTH was wrong with me. Such a stupid waste and abuse of funds."
 
So wait, you are telling me that it is perfectly ok for an "early access" game to charge people, in addition to the initial money you gave them to develop the game, for every single piece of development that they do, including items to be used and tested in the game? Just wow. Do you realize what you even just said?

As I said: You are not paying for a finished game, you are funding it's development. How much you fund is entirely up to you. Plus, you have to be aware of the risks of software development. The game may never be finished or not turn out the way you imagined.

Personally, for me it is important that all the items will be available ingame, so nobody is pressured into spending money in the VD or pledge store to get relevant exclusive items.
 
Might as well let CIG give it a try to prove it can be done right. You've had 15+ years of the so called experienced game companies do it the other way and it has yielded nothing of any real value. If CIG so much as create 35% of what they promised they still have done better than EA/Sony/Blizzard/Activision/Ubisoft/Microsoft in the past 15+ years. I could probably calculate how much I gave to those companies after they released and more than likely my reaction would be, "Wow, just wow. WTH was wrong with me. Such a stupid waste and abuse of funds."

Sorry, but if CIG delivers on 35% on what it promised, it will only equate to what EA/Sony/Activision/Blizzard deliver. That is the truth. CIG is now on the same level of "promise" and "hype" as Bungie had behind Destiny if not more and it has a lot more to lose than Bungie ever could if they fail to deliver a fun and enjoyable game. I'm hopeful that they can pull off at least 50% of it. But this is one of those things that can end in endless debates form both sides to be honest on the topic if CIG can deliver what they promised. This year, 2015, will either make or break CIG, well maybe I should include early 2016 because the PU Alpha is supposed to come at the end of this year.

Also, I may be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that CIG SHOULD charge people for every piece of development and every piece of equipment you are to use during the phase of the development?

As I said: You are not paying for a finished game, you are funding it's development. How much you fund is entirely up to you. Plus, you have to be aware of the risks of software development. The game may never be finished or not turn out the way you imagined.

Personally, for me it is important that all the items will be available ingame, so nobody is pressured into spending money in the VD or pledge store to get relevant exclusive items.

But you are paying for a finished product. That is the nature of how kickstarter works. Somebody pitches you an idea, if you believe in it, you donate your money to it, the earlier you donate, the cheaper it is. As a result of that donation you receive the finished product. It just so happens that CIG chose to develop the product as an "early access" sort of game, like you know a million other companies have been doing it on Steam.

The bottom line is, you already paid for the full product itself. The part you mentioned earlier was that it was "ok" for developers to continue to charge people further money for every single piece of development, in this case equipment from VD store instead of giving it to your user base to use and play with in the Arena Commander. Yeah we all get it, it will be available in the PU, but we are all testing their game and balancing it now in the Arena Commander and CIG is charging people to use that equipment. If you will, they are trying to double dip into the money. That is as low as you can get in the gaming industry in my opinion. CIG promised 8 months ago that you will be able to earn the items in the AC test bed for testing purposes. Then 8 months later nothing has changed, they continue to charge people $15-20 per item. That is what we call greed.

It no longer is about funding the game, its about squeezing the donor base for every little penny they can get. Oh and guess what? Ben commented the other day on reddit that "he was surprised" peopel considered AC "pay2win" and that SC is getting a negative rep about all the "monetizing" of the development....*eye roll*....that very same comment coming from the guy who also stated not long ago that it was "Ok" to mislead the general populace about their marketing.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, but if CIG delivers on 35% on what it promised, it will only equate to what EA/Sony/Activision/Blizzard deliver. That is the truth. CIG is now on the same level of "promise" and "hype" as Bungie had behind Destiny if not more and it has a lot more to lose than Bungie ever could if they fail to deliver a fun and enjoyable game. I'm hopeful that they can pull off at least 50% of it. But this is one of those things that can end in endless debates form both sides to be honest on the topic if CIG can deliver what they promised. This year, 2015, will either make or break CIG, well maybe I should include early 2016 because the PU Alpha is supposed to come at the end of this year.

Also, I may be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that CIG SHOULD charge people for every piece of development and every piece of equipment you are to use during the phase of the development?



But you are paying for a finished product. That is the nature of how kickstarter works. Somebody pitches you an idea, if you believe in it, you donate your money to it, the earlier you donate, the cheaper it is. As a result of that donation you receive the finished product. It just so happens that CIG chose to develop the product as an "early access" sort of game, like you know a million other companies have been doing it on Steam.

The bottom line is, you already paid for the full product itself. The part you mentioned earlier was that it was "ok" for developers to continue to charge people further money for every single piece of development, in this case equipment from VD store instead of giving it to your user base to use and play with in the Arena Commander. Yeah we all get it, it will be available in the PU, but we are all testing their game and balancing it now in the Arena Commander and CIG is charging people to use that equipment. If you will, they are trying to double dip into the money. That is as low as you can get in the gaming industry in my opinion. CIG promised 8 months ago that you will be able to earn the items in the AC test bed for testing purposes. Then 8 months later nothing has changed, they continue to charge people $15-20 per item. That is what we call greed.

It no longer is about funding the game, its about squeezing the donor base for every little penny they can get. Oh and guess what? Ben commented the other day on reddit that "he was surprised" peopel considered AC "pay2win" and that SC is getting a negative rep about all the "monetizing" of the development....*eye roll*....that very same comment coming from the guy who also stated not long ago that it was "Ok" to mislead the general populace about their marketing.

If you think a 35% CIG promise completion equates to EA/Sony/Activision/Blizzard level of accomplishment you are giving those companies way more credit than they will ever earn or deserve. Regardless of how many titles they have put out over the past 15 years they were all trash and worthless because their whole program is to buy short and sell as far long as they can go. Many have told me that the whole idea behind the gaming business is to do as little work as possible while making as much money as possible because real content and real work costs money that you can't guarantee you will make. I've watched a buddy of mine play Destiny and by comparison for the amount of money supposedly spent to develop it players might as well be playing Metroid. It's like after 1999 the gaming business and culture all went downhill.

I think you are misunderstanding me as well as misunderstanding CIG. No one is forcing anyone to make pledges or buy anything. It is a choice and the funds go right into development. What I do agree with is that if people wish to keep pledging CIG should allow them to do so. Sure CIG could say they are shutting down their crowdfunding program but why would they? I sure as hell wouldn't. The funds are clearly going into the development and it shows. If and when people want to stop pledging they will. Until that happens I support CIG keeping the crowdfunding drive going just like I support people choosing to pledge.

My only disappointment will be in not being able to thank all the supporters when we reach the milestones that I'm looking forward to. Flying my Gladius or Xi'an Scout, walking through the corridors of my Retaliator, or standing on the bridge of my Idris or Javelin. So many people to thank when those things happen and not near enough ways to do it. :)
 
Are you saying every single game made in the last 15 years has been near worthless?

Would seem so, and there might be many good examples of fast games for quick profit but there are many examples that are not the case. For example Blizzard's World of Warcraft still alive after 11 years?. Valve's Counter-Strike Source, and now Global Offensive which are still being patched reguarly even after being out for many years now (especially CSS). There are also many other games out there that have been really good and not just trash and worthless.

Though I do understand a bit of what he means, but he could have worded it a bit differently, and not say that all games from big companies have been trash.
 
Last edited:

SlackR

Banned
There's no way Chris Roberts won't deliver... It had just better have Rift Support or I'll be seriously sulking! :p
 
Sorry, but if CIG delivers on 35% on what it promised, it will only equate to what EA/Sony/Activision/Blizzard deliver. That is the truth. CIG is now on the same level of "promise" and "hype" as Bungie had behind Destiny if not more and it has a lot more to lose than Bungie ever could if they fail to deliver a fun and enjoyable game.

First, with the Hangar and AC, CIG has already gone above and beyond what almost every other major company in gaming has achieved in the past decade. From correct modelling to not afraid to use high res textures, to 64bit, to Oculus Rift support, to actually figuring out how to do stuff instead of recycling 10 year old+ engines with new and lifeless levels. Plus, they have announced a couple of things that are only logical to have, and have been demanded by the community and never cared about by other game developers, such as having multi monitor support.

Second..a lot of people, like me, haven't heard of Destiny until it was released. We were surprised that a number of magazines released in-depth articles hyping a game that apparently no one has heard before. After reading those articles, the hype quickly settled down as it was discovered that it was released for consoles only. And the gaming mechanics were not innovative, so it was clear that the game was nothing special. That was reflected in the reviews afterwards.
And yes, you can go above and beyond with consoles as well, hooking multiple of them together via LAN, using multiple TVs as output, manually providing drivers for additional input peripherals, using tablets as MFDs etc. pp. With Bungie's budget, nothing less would have been acceptable in my eyes. Instead, I assume most of the money was used up for marketing.

So after reading a bit of both games, the destiny hype should settle down quickly in my opinion, while SC definitely shows potential.

But you are paying for a finished product. That is the nature of how kickstarter works. Somebody pitches you an idea, if you believe in it, you donate your money to it, the earlier you donate, the cheaper it is. As a result of that donation you receive the finished product. It just so happens that CIG chose to develop the product as an "early access" sort of game, like you know a million other companies have been doing it on Steam.

I haven't been with CIG on the kickstarter campaign, but I believe it didn't contain all the extra items from the pledge store and VD. Plus, projects on kickstarter have to be developed, so there is always the possibility of failure. It is common for projects to overshoot their budget, people should be aware of that.

The bottom line is, you already paid for the full product itself. The part you mentioned earlier was that it was "ok" for developers to continue to charge people further money for every single piece of development, in this case equipment from VD store instead of giving it to your user base to use and play with in the Arena Commander. Yeah we all get it, it will be available in the PU, but we are all testing their game and balancing it now in the Arena Commander and CIG is charging people to use that equipment. If you will, they are trying to double dip into the money. That is as low as you can get in the gaming industry in my opinion. CIG promised 8 months ago that you will be able to earn the items in the AC test bed for testing purposes. Then 8 months later nothing has changed, they continue to charge people $15-20 per item. That is what we call greed.

It no longer is about funding the game, its about squeezing the donor base for every little penny they can get. Oh and guess what? Ben commented the other day on reddit that "he was surprised" peopel considered AC "pay2win" and that SC is getting a negative rep about all the "monetizing" of the development....*eye roll*....that very same comment coming from the guy who also stated not long ago that it was "Ok" to mislead the general populace about their marketing.
[/quote]

Personally, I don't take the VD store very serious. It is clear that the AC part is very much in active development and they are constantly rebalancing it. So I don't see the point in getting competitive with addon weapons and the ranking system. But there are people who enjoy that and are willing to pay for those items to further fund development, much in a way as I occasionally buy a ship or extend my subscription in the pledge store. So honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it. The premise being that you are not having a "pay2win" game, but foremost are funding development. The thought should never be: "I must buy this missile type to get a better ranking in AC", but "hey, I have some money left to donate, what fun item can I get as a thankyou?".

Speaking of funding:
To my knowledge, CIG has somewhere around 200 to 300 employees. If you assume a 100k$ p.a. salary (including all the expenses on the side), that means going through 20 to 30 Million USD every year just for the staff. And those people are needed and will take several years to complete the game. Collecting 70 Million dollars in little over two years is not excessive or "greedy" for an ambitious software project. It should be clear that the level of ambition has risen considerably from the initial kickstarter project to the current state.

So it still is about funding the game. In addition, there are genuine concerns, for example I currently find it hard to piece together the relevant information about the project if I were new to it. And CIG doesn't communicate the business numbers openly, which makes it more difficult to estimate how well they are doing.
 
Are you saying every single game made in the last 15 years has been near worthless?

There are exceptions of course (e.g. WoW, X-Plane, Skyrim - but only because the community fixed dev's shortcomings, Rockband on the consoles), but more or less we haven't seen new things since the beginning of the 2000s. It's almost a lost decade for gaming, with the current endless remakes often being technically worse than the originals (see Crysis overall, or Tomb Raider in terms of gameplay).
Most games are outdated in technical terms (that is one reason btw that hardware sales have gone down the drain - they have been traditionally demanding so people buy new hardware), they are shallow, stretch their content with FMV sequences, and if you pay attention to what your machines does, you see that most of them employ outdated or bad coding practices, leaking gigabytes of RAM or failing to load game data ahead of time, forcing an endless amount of loading screens, for example.

It's also an ongoing trend in the content industry. I found myself taking higher quality shots with my DSLR in 1080p than I can see in every Hollywood movie, for example. I've seen bands that are happy you show up and buy them a beer, that can totally outperform the multi-million dollar TV castings in terms of writing songs (text and melody), playing their instruments and engaging their audience (regardless of the genre) as well as recording/mastering their albums properly without making all the beginner's mistakes that even the most noobish audience can recognize, such as clipping, lack of dynamic range and overly used compression.

Most of the creative industry just burn ridiculous amounts of money without delivering.
 
Are you saying every single game made in the last 15 years has been near worthless?

If you have to ask, you already know the answer is yes. But I will give you the one and only exception just to be fair. The very first Crysis for PC back in 2007. There you go. I admit it, there was one title that wasn't worthless.

Zelos1983 brings up a good point. It is pretty sad when your game's only real value comes from the modding community. Worse when you are such a pathetic piece of crap company that you go out of your way to lockdown your software to keep those Modders from displaying that you short changed the players and sold them crap to make a quick buck.
 
Last edited:
Reading this article on Polygon had me scratching my head:

www.polygon.com/2015/2/6/7993905/star-citizens-110-starship-was-meant-to-fly

It's like the guy writing this article hasn't looked at SC before at all, as if he had been living under a rock.
But to put up something relevant to this dicussion: In the comments of that article, people defend the selling of ships as something that's only going to happen before the game is released, after which "ships will only be earned via in-game credits by playing".

Let me dissect this assumption a little bit:

First of all, SC has no real "release date" to speak of. It is being released in several modules. Now of course you can hope that the release of PU will see the closure of the cash shop for ships. It would make sense to assume that cash store closure will happen only once it's possible to earn ships ingame, which at the moment appears to be still quite a ways off. But here's the first problem: That's an assumption. We don't know if the first playable iteration of PU will mean the shop will close, or whether there's going to be an overlap.

Second, selling ships was the single biggest money generator for SC. It is the reason SC broke all crowdfunding records. Now you can yap all day about how this is not really about "buying starships" but "pledging to the game", but come on. The store and website says "Buying options", "Own this ship", "Purchase Vessel" etc. etc.
Just because you replace the word "Buy" with "Pledge" doesn't change the fact that you're selling starships, and you're even selling the idea of "owning your ship", for cash. It's a bit like Steam claiming that they have the right to yank your games at any time because you only "subscribed" to them, not purchasing them. This kind of word play just doesn't fly.

So, keeping in mind the fact that selling ships made SC an ungodly amount of money, you expect them to stop doing what brings in the cash once they release PU?

No. If you believe this, then that's an assumption on your part. I'm betting there's always some ships going to be sold for real money. They'll just have to call it "Supporter Package" or "donor rewards" or somesuch
 
Reading this article on Polygon had me scratching my head:

www.polygon.com/2015/2/6/7993905/star-citizens-110-starship-was-meant-to-fly

It's like the guy writing this article hasn't looked at SC before at all, as if he had been living under a rock.
But to put up something relevant to this dicussion: In the comments of that article, people defend the selling of ships as something that's only going to happen before the game is released, after which "ships will only be earned via in-game credits by playing".

Let me dissect this assumption a little bit:

First of all, SC has no real "release date" to speak of. It is being released in several modules. Now of course you can hope that the release of PU will see the closure of the cash shop for ships. It would make sense to assume that cash store closure will happen only once it's possible to earn ships ingame, which at the moment appears to be still quite a ways off. But here's the first problem: That's an assumption. We don't know if the first playable iteration of PU will mean the shop will close, or whether there's going to be an overlap.

Second, selling ships was the single biggest money generator for SC. It is the reason SC broke all crowdfunding records. Now you can yap all day about how this is not really about "buying starships" but "pledging to the game", but come on. The store and website says "Buying options", "Own this ship", "Purchase Vessel" etc. etc.
Just because you replace the word "Buy" with "Pledge" doesn't change the fact that you're selling starships, and you're even selling the idea of "owning your ship", for cash. It's a bit like Steam claiming that they have the right to yank your games at any time because you only "subscribed" to them, not purchasing them. This kind of word play just doesn't fly.

So, keeping in mind the fact that selling ships made SC an ungodly amount of money, you expect them to stop doing what brings in the cash once they release PU?

No. If you believe this, then that's an assumption on your part. I'm betting there's always some ships going to be sold for real money. They'll just have to call it "Supporter Package" or "donor rewards" or somesuch

I'm still not seeing a problem here. There's nothing wrong with people pledging, and there is nothing wrong with CIG accepting. In the end a true quality product will emerge.
 
There's no way Chris Roberts won't deliver... It had just better have Rift Support or I'll be seriously sulking! :p

I'm a little concerned about support for the Rift. Chris Roberts talked it up a lot in the early days of Star Citizen, but now it never really gets mentioned. Last time I looked implimention was poor, as all the assets are drastically out of scale in terms of how they look inside the Rift. I'm not sure how feasible it is to correct that without reworking everything.
 
As I said: You are not paying for a finished game, you are funding it's development. How much you fund is entirely up to you.

Quoted for truth.

CIG is not "charging" anyone for anything. If you don't want to pledge then don't. It's perfectly possible to play Arena Commander without buying anything extra.
 
I'm betting there's always some ships going to be sold for real money. They'll just have to call it "Supporter Package" or "donor rewards" or somesuch

The genie is out of the bottle on this - i.e. CIG's funding model of packages, ships and extras. I agree that this will almost definitely continute after 'release' - but I don't think it's a bad thing, so long as there is no paywall where some things are not obtainable through earning in-game money (with perhaps the exception of purely cosmetic items).

My 2p
 
Did they nerf the mouse commander controls?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT3ZvnUnUkU

Nope, not fixed yet and unfortunately the masses want to keep it that way so it is going to stay. Instead of just locking down the gimbals for the pilot and leaving turrets for the weapons officer CIG want to try and have that mouse weapons control trash simulated for flightstick users, thus dumbing down that side of SC to increase support for the no-skill wonders.
 
Last edited:
Nope, not fixed yet and unfortunately the masses want to keep it that way so it is going to stay. Instead of just locking down the gimbals for the pilot and leaving turrets for the weapons officer CIG want to try and have that mouse weapons controll trash simulated for flightstick users, thus dumbing down that side of SC to oncrease support for the no-skill wonders.

This is a big mistake, and it is going to be even worse when the PU and full multiplayer goes live.

Oh well... SQ42 will probably rock though.
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom