Straight up, are combat and exploration professions being made second-class to trading?

I like trading. I like the seminal challenge of finding new routes (without using trade tools). Its harder now and so it should be. Some of us prefer IQ over Pew Pew. Not that I don't like combat. My rank is expert through purely doing Anaconda assassination missions I pick up while trading. I also trade in areas where I can raise rep in more than one faction and collect bounties in all factions. If I bump into something juicy in a USS while doing the assassination missions I might even do a little smuggling. While I'm looking for routes I also carry an advanced scanner and scan every undiscovered system I pass through.

In other words I try to be as efficient as possible, using all the opportunities the game presents me to raise my combat, trading and exploration ranks. As a result I'm flying an Anaconda with 100mil spare cash at Tycoon trading rank and expert combat rank. My exploration rank is lagging only being surveyor but I'm planning on doing some expeditions this weekend.

If you focus too much on one aspect of this game (or any game) it will soon become boring. If you take advantage of the variation offered my the game its less boring and much more profitable.

100 mil in spare cash and an Anaconda? See, that's the problem. You already have the top-class ships, and you likely did a ton of trading to get there, or maybe you had some assets from Gamma or whatever it was. Those of us who severely dislike trading don't want to do it, and don't feel like we should be forced to do it to get where you're at, and honestly we shouldn't. We already have more risk than a trader; we can get blown up by our prey... I'd like to see your cargo deploy hardpoints and blow you up. We deal with RNG; waiting for a good spawn, or finding the right USS for that assassination mission... you find a good route and you're set for several million worth of income until your route dries up. If you find a good off-the-beaten-trail route, that route alone could fund whatever ship you want, or whatever equipment. Combat pilots and explorers don't have that luxury.

I'm noticing a trend... all the people who like trading say it's fine, and all the people who don't like trading say it's not fine and needs fixed. Anyone else getting that?
 

IceyJones

Banned
orca missions are bugged......i for sure lost minimum 10 million cr. because they cannot be completed....not counting the rep-loss
from 5 assassinations i make, sometimes 2 of them are orcas......
this is much more common in alliance space. in fed space you mostly get a dropship as target and that works fine....

despite this annoying bug, this missions need more variable targets and according mission rewards. and we need MORE of this missions......and we need less USS-hopping. sometimes it takes 30 minutes to find ONE target.....

and we need higher ranked missions than one elite conda......what about a elite conda with escort? 2 elite vipers for example......and 500k reward for such a mission......
when you know how, you pop up an elite conda in 30 seconds - 2 minutes, depending on ship you use....
so 30 minutes "searching" for 30 seconds "fun"......seems off for me
 
100 mil in spare cash and an Anaconda? See, that's the problem. You already have the top-class ships, and you likely did a ton of trading to get there, or maybe you had some assets from Gamma or whatever it was. Those of us who severely dislike trading don't want to do it, and don't feel like we should be forced to do it to get where you're at, and honestly we shouldn't. We already have more risk than a trader; we can get blown up by our prey... I'd like to see your cargo deploy hardpoints and blow you up. We deal with RNG; waiting for a good spawn, or finding the right USS for that assassination mission... you find a good route and you're set for several million worth of income until your route dries up. If you find a good off-the-beaten-trail route, that route alone could fund whatever ship you want, or whatever equipment. Combat pilots and explorers don't have that luxury.

I'm noticing a trend... all the people who like trading say it's fine, and all the people who don't like trading say it's not fine and needs fixed. Anyone else getting that?
I do everything you do. But I also do trading. The point is I dont focus on one thing and one thing only. If you do the game will penalise you for it by restricting your progression.
 
Never got paid for an Orca myself.
Was actually expecting this when my Orca target shows up. Before cancelling I figure might as well try destroying him... He is clean and green, so I am definitely getting a bounty for killing him, but for science and all that... I opened fire, fined, killed him, wanted status... But surprisingly it did finish the mission, pity about 40% or so of the payout must go to pay the bounty it incurred (no idea how badly my rep suffered, I stayed allied with empire so I guess not that much...).
 
I do a bit of everything except pirating but I do mostly trade.
I think the balance needs to be made by reworking the commodities market and the risk traders are exposed to rather than upping the rewards for combat.

At the moment there is little difference between trading a safe 'home' system run where I am allied or friendly against my choosing to trade in/to an anarchy system. The profit is not effected and the risk isn't noticeably higher either.

I would like to see higher profit margins available on risky routes and more risk on those routes. Systems risk should be linked to their faction which in turn should add a percentage increase in prices paid for goods while higher security routes would have prices reduced. The profit difference should be enough encourage traders to take risks and allow piracy without prates acquiring bounties for piracy in low security/anarchy systems.

Federation/Empire - High security low risk with minimal interdiction rates as they are major powers with a tight control on their systems [ -X% prices ]
Independant - Medium risk resulting in a small increase in interdiction rates [ 0% prices ]
Anarchy - High risk with increased pirates resulting in much higher interdiction rates [ + x% prices ]

As ED already has a tax system in the commodities system this should not require much effort and would be easily adjustable to find a good balance with the added bonus of making trading a bit more interesting for those that want to take the risk for the big bucks.
 
The problem is two fold and addressing either issue would help matters.

Firstly the costs of owning one of the larger ships is prohibitive. One encounter with an Elite Anaconda in an Asp can wipe out an entire evenings bounties even if you win the encounter. I had one such battle which netted me 50k in bounty and a 300k repair bill. To fully upgrade any ship costs between 6 and 7 times the initial "Here I am, come and kill me" spec purchase price and sometimes even more. A fully upgraded Cobra is worth about 9 million which is 23 times the initial price. The Clipper I'm flying now will cost something like 100 million to get it where it needs to be for bounty hunting big prizes and if you want it top shelf it's neared 140 million.


Secondly, the income available doesn't scale as you increase your ship size.

The largest bounty I have seen to date has been 124k for a very well armed and very difficult Elite Anaconda so I'd need to kill about a thousand of those to be able to do the upgrades I want. Needless to say bounties at that level are rare. Much more usually around 30-50k so that makes it 2-3000 kills needed.

The sweet spot seems to be a fully upgraded Cobra which is an achievable price with much more reasonable repair costs. I keep on buying bigger ships but when I want to go out for a fight I always seem to end up back in a Cobra.

Maybe FD want everyone who isn't a dedicated trader to fly those.

We just need to fill the slots between the gaps. Right now the gaps are too big, and frankly, too much "trade-only" biased.

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Was actually expecting this when my Orca target shows up. Before cancelling I figure might as well try destroying him... He is clean and green, so I am definitely getting a bounty for killing him, but for science and all that... I opened fire, fined, killed him, wanted status... But surprisingly it did finish the mission, pity about 40% or so of the payout must go to pay the bounty it incurred (no idea how badly my rep suffered, I stayed allied with empire so I guess not that much...).

Yep... them Orcas are a bug indeed, still - tho guess them support folks haven't gotten that far in the dig they have to do.
 
Credits are a means to an end. There's no reason that combat professions should earn as much as trading.
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That said, it needs to be sustainable, with the improved AI (which I'm happy with) in 1.1, it is less so now as costs have increased. The real gap is no scaling in the rewards and missions as you progress either factional reputation or combat ranking, and overall the lack of missions available - this is what I hope is improved so that a combat career is viable to allow them to purchase the "better" ships and loadouts, but also to maintain them.
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Otherwise you can't really "Blaze your own trail" and perhaps it should be "Blaze your own trade"
 
If you focus too much on one aspect of this game (or any game) it will soon become boring. If you take advantage of the variation offered my the game its less boring and much more profitable.

I agree completely with this. When I'm doing rare runs I pop out of station to hit some USS sites while I'm waiting for the rest of my allocation to appear, sometimes I just go bounty hunting and sometimes I head out a few hundred light years to do some exploration. Sometimes I do some missions to improve my standing and advance my ranks. It's all good, but you're quite right to say that too much repetition gets boring fast.
 
  • The initial seed money to get an exploration vessel is even more expensive. You're pretty much required to get the Advanced Discovery Scanner, the Detailed Surface Scanner, a fuel scoop and a ship that can travel the large distances on a single jump.

Ill comment on this one, because its completely wrong. My first explorations were in a Hauler with no DSS and only a basic scanner. I got enough money from that to get myself into a Viper and do some bounty hunting. After doing that for a while i had enough money to get an ADS and DSS for my Hauler. Once i had those i was set. Later i upgraded to a Cobra and now an Asp. Over 50% of my total income has come from exploring.

Also, looking at how things are developing, i think your title is backwards. Since release, trading has received more nerfs than any other area, while combat and exploring have both had a bit more attention in terms of features and balancing.

I think FD are heading in the right direction.

There again, if you have quit playing because you don't like the direction FD are going, then there is no point sticking around here. Its just going to get worse and worse from your perspective.
 
Why do people seem to think the different professions have to make the same amount of credits per hour in order that a game be fair.
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Not all jobs pay the same rate in real life so why the hell should a game be any different, ED is there for you to make the choices of how you want to play, there is no goal of make so many credits and own all ships.
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I still run around with a Cobra and a Viper and am enjoying it, I am not even bothered about getting a bigger ship any time soon.
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Freedom to play how you want is the thing not I'm crying because he makes more money then me in his big cargo ship. Ah diddums
 
I'm noticing a trend... all the people who like trading say it's fine, and all the people who don't like trading say it's not fine and needs fixed. Anyone else getting that?
I hate trading and think is ok. What profession does more cash : traders, cartographers, mercenaries or pilots ?
Old ways was : some trading, some combat, some exploration. Mostly bit of trading to pay bills for further combats and exploration.

You can trade for money and be bored to death if not becoming crazy while doing always the same boring stuff.
You can do fun things and have less cash.
Your choice.
 
One could argue that income from combat vs trading is kinda "balanced", since the Viper - by many regarded as the best fighter - is dirt cheap, while the best trader - T9 - is ridiculously expensive. You need more money to trade efficiently, than to fight.
Not saying I'm completely happy with it though.
 
I agree and disagree with some points. First I think that getting to the biggest vessel should not be the goal of the game. If someone thinks he needs an Anaconda to have fun, go on and grind, but don't expect the game to be designed around your playstyle. I want FDEV to enhance the overall experience and deliver a richer and deeper gameplay rather than balancing all professions so everyone can grind equally. Grinding should not be the top priority in game design.

You make some valid points, but your post lacks of suggestions. Critizising is easy as long as you don't come up with solutions.

  • Bounty-hunting payoffs are highly random, and depending upon payoff, can be ridiculously easy (a 20k Sidewinder? SURE!) to impossibly difficult (Not one bite and the only one is a 50k Anaconda. Really?). Dont get me started on the inconsistent RES spawning too.
Killing an Anaconda is not impossibly difficult. Get better or run. But just as you I would like to see an overhaul on bounties. I don't have a problem with a 20k sidewinder (haven't seen one yet). Bounties should depend on ranks and ships. An Elite Eagle for example is significant harder to kill than a Novice Cobra, still you get more credits for the Cobra.
On RES: The current random spawning is not optimal. But making it "consistent" means for me making it static. This would be even worse.

  • Combat zone payoffs, even with the latest update, are anemic and are barely worth the effort of undocking. For some combat pilots, you'd have to kill several tens of targets just to break even on the cost of fuel used to fly and stay there.


  • Fighting outside of combat zones after a bounty with police all around on the same target is actually far more dangerous than taking on the target solo, because of the risk of friendly fire without forgiveness or warning. Dont give me the bull- reasoning of "you're not paying attention to your radar" malarkey. Not one single time I friendly-fired was it even remotely possible for me to even notice the police craft crossing my line of fire by trying to decipher his sig from everyone else's around me at the same time as dodging enemy fire, asteroids, collisions from other police and shooting at the target. Dont even get me started on the risk of police still being able to steal your kills.
On combat zones, see above. I would like to see higher bounties for Elite and Dangerous enemies. But if you have higher fuel costs than profits you are doing something wrong. Even before 1.1 I could easily go for 30.000 in combat bonds before I had to reload my weapons.

I don't have anything to say on FF and your other problems, it would lead to a meaningless discussion. We already have enough threads about it.

  • The intial seed money of getting a combat-capable craft able to handle the only kill missions is expensive to newcomers. There are no kill missions for smaller craft or more inexperienced pilots, scaring all but the most masochistic to attempt to kill an Anaconda with a Sidewinder, even if it is possible (and lets be honest, having the only kill missions be Anacondas without warning other than the dubiously large payout is a bit of a move). Why are all the missions that have easier entrypoints to do at are courier and trade jobs only?
I agree, it would be nice to have some variation in assassinations. Still it should remain a profession for experts. You start as harmless, not as the guy from Assassins Creed. Courier and trade jobs aren't the only entry missions. I started with killing pirates.

  • The initial seed money to get an exploration vessel is even more expensive. You're pretty much required to get the Advanced Discovery Scanner, the Detailed Surface Scanner, a fuel scoop and a ship that can travel the large distances on a single jump.
That is true for every profession in game. If you want to do trading you need a big ship with lots of cargo. If you want to do assassinations you need a strong ship with lots of weapons. This makes newcomers to do a bit of everything at start. You begin with a lousy sidewinder and 1000 credits. It's part of the game design and a good thing.

  • The glaring lack of ship progression for combat pilots after the Viper. The Cobra is nowhere near capable enough for the hard combat jobs a Viper can do (like singlehandedly taking down Anaconda kill mission targets, of which they are the only available kill mission target thereis), and the price gap between the Viper and anything bigger than a Cobra is absurdly large, and the Asp isnt even worth flying as a combat-capable craft without at least double the hull cost invested into it.
You can kill an Anaconda in a Cobra just as easy as in a Viper. If you can't do it, don't blame the game for it. The Asp is not a dedicated fighter. If you want more combat ships the best thing you can do is wait for new ship releases. There will certainly be something that suits you.

  • The insane difficulty of fitting a shield cell bank (of now questionable worth) onto a Viper thanks to the over-nerfing of it that didnt fix the biggest problem of the module in the first place. Now the module is basically worthless on anything but a combat ship because of its lethargic shield healing performance, and the fact you can still fit more than one per ship means that the original problem hasnt been fixed in the slightest, and just made it so that ships like the Eagle and Viper are left out in the cold as to even bother fitting one considering the increased power and munitions costs. It was a direct combat ship nerf when such a nerf wasnt even needed.

You can fit SCB on a Viper. You just need to understand how power management works. But I would like to see SCB restricted to one module per ship. They could be buffed a little in return.

And the most glaring problem many of us see:


  • From a large range of people I've talked to who play Elite Dangerous of nearly all playstyles, a large majority of traders are the only ones who earn far more than explorers or combat pilots, and are also the only ones who seem to have had any shot at bigger ships with less playtime invested, with less effort invested, and arguably, with more safety than combat or exploration. The only risk a smart trader would have to face is the once-in-a-blue-moon mistake causes ship loss and thereby the loss of a full cargohold, making the cargohold lost cash. Compare that to combat and exploration pilots who suffer far more hull losses in general. Dont even get me started with the anemic payout in combat zones, the bull- risks one has to undetake when bounty hunting, the crashing and many other problems with trying to sell exploration data, the fact that exploration data dont even pay close to bounty-hunting...
See my first statement. I think traders should make the most money. Trading is about making money. Bounty Hunting is about killing things. That is fun and this fun is the reward. You don't need to make profits significantly better, FDEV needs to make it more interesting through better features. Same with exploration and mining. There is also no point in everyone flying an Anaconda, that would kill the game for me.
 
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Credits are a means to an end. There's no reason that combat professions should earn as much as trading.
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Completely agree with this, but I'm less certain about the combat-only financial progression model that the rest of the post asked for. I know "wait until wings come in" is a rather tired excuse, but where combat is concerned (particularly the financial losses that accrue from it) wings will make a big difference. Sure the pot will be split, but with the likely benefit of substantially reduced damage (costs) this may be enough to make combat-only profitable. Imo it should never even approach trade in profitability however, the three routes to elite status in the game should be kept separate and distinct - combat, together with exploration, should only really yield living expenses plus a little bit more for upgrades - if you want the funds for a jump to a "big ship" you should expect to go back to trading for a while.
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I'm a mix player - exploration with a large combat/trade/mining percentage between expeditions. Imo combat-only players need the salutary experience of getting back into a trade ship now and then to remind themselves that it's not all pew pew :D
 
There are a few solutions to this problem. If they were all implemented, I'd wager many complaints would disappear.

1. Increase bounty payouts for higher combat rank. This can be done by granting missions that have higher rewards, or by scaling pay in a conflict zone by rank. after all, an ace pilot would be compensated better than a newbie. Similarly, an experienced explorer's data is worth more than an unproven rookie.

2. More combat ships that are cheaper. The Vulture is a good start. More ships in general is a good idea.

3. Real cash for currency. This is a tender subject, but is worth looking at. After all, does it really affect you if someone paid for their anaconda with cash whIle you got yours by trading? In a game with so few ships, exclusivity or rarity of a ship type is a pipe dream.
 
Completely agree with this, but I'm less certain about the combat-only financial progression model that the rest of the post asked for.

To add clarity to my thinking on the bit you're less certain about, it should never progress at the same rate as a trader only profession. So it's self sufficiency, and if you really want to go for that big ship, it should take a long time or you would have to mix it up. Pretty much in line with your sentiments.
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However, I don't think Wings is the answer (though it will bring positives), but it assumes everyone will play in groups and even for those that do a lot won't be grouped all the time.
 
To add clarity to my thinking on the bit you're less certain about, it should never progress at the same rate as a trader only profession. So it's self sufficiency, and if you really want to go for that big ship, it should take a long time or you would have to mix it up. Pretty much in line with your sentiments.
We're probably on the same wavelength here. Tbh if you are a combat-only pilot then big ships may not prove to be that much of an attraction anyway. I wonder how many Python and Annie owners go back to their Vipers for a real combat fix?
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Maybe I'm selfish, but I don't want an Elite universe where all the players are is flying 50MCr+ ships - it seems out of key with the small person/massive universe premise of the game.
However, I don't think Wings is the answer (though it will bring positives), but it assumes everyone will play in groups and even for those that do a lot won't be grouped all the time.
Given the whole point of wings I hope that the current problems with grouping are sorted out in 1.2, but I would still hold that the solo combat risk/reward ratio should be weighted towards the risk side of the equation.
 
Of course trading pays much better than any other profession.Trading is where the price of all other economic activities is decided.
 
...the income available doesn't scale as you increase your ship size.

Why should it? If you are taking on a bounty then it's up to you what ship you do it in.
They should offer more difficult bounties with a greater pay off, again though, up to you what ship you take along.

The largest bounty I have seen to date has been 124k for a very well armed and very difficult Elite Anaconda so I'd need to kill about a thousand of those to be able to do the upgrades I want.

BH is not meant to be a sole profession. It's getting paid for combat action and increasing your combat rating. You choose to take BH missions or not. If you want to earn money then trade.

The professions are not meant to be exclusive career roles, credits are not the sole progression metric.
 
I don't understand why everybody keeps going "Trading ought to make more money". Why? Why should it? People with different skill sets should surely be able to earn at least similar levels of income in a universe like this? A powerful bounty hunter or mercenary should be paid rather well for his efforts - the job he's doing involves far more risk, etc. As it stands, trading is laughably easy and the margins are ridiculously high. It doesn't represent any kind of realistic economy. I'm not saying it should, but it's clear that there's a huge difference in income between being an explorer, a fighter (as a generalizing term) and a trader. Again, I don't mind there being a difference, but why make it a massive difference when one involves more risk and time spent? And why make one ridiculously easy? And why forget about explorers? :p
 
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