"Keep It Simple, Stupid" – David Braben on Added Value Services

[leenco12]

For me, as a gamer, I like the idea of serialized disks. Its simple, and cuts out multiple layers of fussing. It would also mean we can get rid of DRM.

I've had many bad experiences with DRM. My first being with Farenheit. I had a legitimate disk, but the DRM software would not let me play so I had to download a CD crack to play it. More recently, last Christmas I baught Mass Effect and Mirrors edge. The DRM software prevented me from playing either of them, so I was pretty annoyed. So I bought myself a copy of Crysis on steam - that wouldn't have DRM on it. Well it did, I couldn't play that either. I'm not planning on buying anymore EA games, their DRM has put me off their products. Ubisoft has put themselves on my boycott list also by doing the always-online DRM too.

Ah so DRM rant aside, serialized disks would be great. If the games retailers are not happy with It I think it could be worth selling through supermarkets. I'm sure Tesco wouldn't care at all about selling serialized disks. Not as if Tesco or ASDA ever attempt to make profit on games releases anyway (they use them as loss-leaders to get people in-store)

I see the problem for the creators of not earning anything from the "pre-owned"-market, which probably keeps many people from buying the game in new condition.

But one obvious problem that I don't see addressed here: Often enough classic games can only be purchased "pre-owned" because they are out of print. So if it's made impossible to resell used games, all games will face premature eternal death.

 

[Callum Rowley]

But one obvious problem that I don't see addressed here: Often enough classic games can only be purchased "pre-owned" because they are out of print. So if it's made impossible to resell used games, all games will face premature eternal death.

Not if they're made available online - places such as Steam.

 

[Steve O B Have]

Not if they're made available online - places such as Steam.

As long as steam deems them as worth keeping online and s long as they are there then Steam has to support them costing them money...

 

[Callum Rowley]

As long as steam deems them as worth keeping online and s long as they are there then Steam has to support them costing them money...

The same applies to retail stores. I think Steam (or other download platforms such as PSN) have a larger "shelf-space" as it were compared to physical retail stores so naturally life expectancy will be longer.

I can buy the original Destruction Derby through PSN right now, but chances of me finding it in GAME or an independant retail store? Very unlikely

There is still a problem of game makers actually getting round to re-publishing their legacy games on digital platforms though

 

[Steve O B Have]

There is still a problem of game makers actually getting round to re-publishing their legacy games on digital platforms though

No to mention having to re-engineer legacy games to run on new OS's and work with new hardware. Making the games available through digital distribution firmly puts the onus of support in the hand of the makers/distributor/publisher again. Previously the 'duty of care' lasted as long as the game was distributed by a publisher.

Opening up a back catalogue of games through DD is hardly a cost effective way of running business - opening old games to the public domain makes more sense to me. There are enough crafty gamers out there that can figure out running it for themselves or create something to make it easy for others. The problem has always been making it legal... IMO of course...

 

[Geraldine]

There is still a problem of game makers actually getting round to re-publishing their legacy games on digital platforms though

Could that be a hint Callum? Could we see re-worked versions of Infestation and Virus 2000?

 

[bananascope]

Could that be a hint Callum? Could we see re-worked versions of Infestation and Virus 2000?

ahem.... frontier on the 360 ahem......
: )

 

[NextGame]

I think the real question is; when are we going to start seeing some frontier games on steam/impulse/direct2drive etc for pc gamers to get their teeth into?

 

[ellyka112]

Perhaps the whole pirating issue would be less troublesome if vendors didn't charge such exorbitant prices for new games. £40 for a game is in my opinion quite a bit. I personally tend to wait till the price drops below £20 before I buy them however if it were at that price initially then I would put my saved £20 betting that more people would just go and buy an original version.

In my mind there are several issues these days with games and the release process.

1. Demos - they just aren't as prevalent as they used to be - I would warrant that a large number of downloads are part of a 'try before you buy' process. Games houses are asking people to put faith in reviewers and in production houses that the quality is there and that they are getting value for their hard earned money. Unfortunately this is just not the case in a large number of games released these days. There are very few franchises that I buy into without first having had my trust gained by good production values and great products.

2. Price - As I alluded to earlier - pricing is, in my opinion, out of kilter for both the value of the game and the value of the package accompanying. Gone are the days where you would get a nice little box of goodies with a game - your £40 buys you a generic DVD case with one or two disks and a quick start guide. Games are costing less to press and costing us as the consumer more. One could argue that there is a parallel between the cost of producing games in this day and age but I would come back with the idea that if games houses didn't treat us like the enemy and more like a valued customer then perhaps, just perhaps, the monetary return might reflect that.

Now undoubtedly there are going to be people out there that are always going to take the cheap easy way to obtaining software but in the current trend of pricing vs content the industry is only making the cheap illegal way more desirable. Personally I think that the solution to this problem is not to make consumers jump through hoops but to offer them a great price combined with content that shows that we're not just a bunch of wallets to be arbitrarily dipped into because we have morals.

From the perspective of second hand games - again this is an issue with the price point that games come onto the market at - if you price the games at a more reasonable level then the second hand market would have far less weight with the consumer.

I think the problem is not with people buying pre-owned games or retailers selling them. This situation has be caused by the games industry getting too greedy and seeing the consumer as a threat. You want to fix the problem then the games industry has to move first not the consumer. We're oddly not the enemy, we're the ones that keep you in pocket but for some bizarre reason the gaming industry is hell bent on making us pay for the situation they have got themselves into.

As a gamer, a more suitable price for gamers would be desirable as £39.99 for the standard edition of a game is a bit excessive when the special edition of the same game costs £44.99. However, for games at retail it's not the developer who dictates the prices, and publishers only get to say what the recommended price point should be. IMO this is where the current issue with prices arise as regardless of what price the publisher sets, the sales, manufacturers, printers and retailers will still take the same cut - and as it stands developers/publishers are already only making a fraction of return from the £39.99 price point at physical retail.

 

[Geraldine]

ahem.... frontier on the 360 ahem......
: )

How about FFE on the miggy! Better late than never........

 

[Steve O B Have]

As a gamer, a more suitable price for gamers would be desirable as £39.99 for the standard edition of a game is a bit excessive when the special edition of the same game costs £44.99. However, for games at retail it's not the developer who dictates the prices, and publishers only get to say what the recommended price point should be. IMO this is where the current issue with prices arise as regardless of what price the publisher sets, the sales, manufacturers, printers and retailers will still take the same cut - and as it stands developers/publishers are already only making a fraction of return from the £39.99 price point at physical retail.

I'd be interested to see the breakdown of a Steam sale seeing as they are effectively bypassing the entire manufacture, printing and retail aspects of the transaction. The margins as far as I can see it are significantly larger. I personally think (and I think I may have said this before) that the gaming industry is making it's own bed and through inaction encouraging piracy. In no way am I supporting piracy but through supporting ridiculous pricing on new games they are making it far more attractive to either wait for the game to be available second hand or outright pirate it.

In my opinion they are the ones in the position of power and they, much like the music industry, are too stubborn and too set in their ways to see their way out of it. Smothering games with copy protection and punishing those that actually pay for their games is a mistake made in the sad place of greed. Gamers are making their standpoint clear by not buying - it seems obvious to me...

 

[cherylfoster]

Perhaps the whole issue of piracy would be less problematic if the seller does not pay such exorbitant prices for new games. £ 40 for a game in my opinion a bit. I tend to wait until the price drops below € 20 before I buy them, but if this price initially so I want to save £ 20 bet that more people would just go and buy the original version.

 

[Hamsterbytes]

Of course it's a welcome thing for publishers - it means they can (and do) charge above the odds for new release games and not have to pay shops their 'handling fee'. Steam has some brilliant deals but hell do they wring every last penny out of you for new releases. If you purchase off Amazon you can typically save yourself £10 and get a physical disk.

I love the digital distribution method but I really do still think that they need to be rethinking their pricing and take the lead. The bonus is that the return to publishers (and hopefully by proxy developers) is increased and there is greater control with the end product - something that I have no issue with. Serialised disks do make an element of sense but getting rid of them all together makes more IMO. It strikes me that digital distribution is the perfect vehicle for restructuring the entire selling 'tree' and forcibly bringing the price down but whilst it still appears to be a cash cow (especially with the middle man gone) publishers aren't going to do diddly and then end result is that someone is always going to find a way around DRM or serial keys or for that matter serial disks.

Am I wrong in thinking that if you cut the price of games by half then more than twice as many people would be inclined to legitimately purchase it? All this copy protection stuff just seems to be more about wallet protection from narrow minded industry Scrooges.

I think Downloads can be good, but how about disk or something tangible so you can re-download your purchase and prove that you bought and own it when a computer disaster happens. I have lost several games(and programs) to crashed hard drives and window crashes.
And then there is Steam. I have completely stopped and unloaded a program as soon as it says I have to load it(steam) to use the program. I first became aware Steam likes to use their program to target their users for ads. I am not going to have commercials directed at me due to them. I get enough garbage as it is.
Email is atrocious already, but it is free and needs a way to make money. I buy my programs and don't want to pay twice by watching ads. If they want to send me ads, then they can pay me cash or by helping lower program costs.

 

[Kipper]

Apologies for the slight necro-post here but I only check into these forums every few months to see if theres any news on 'the game'

I do have an opinion here though and i'm afraid its contradictory to most peoples held beliefs that games are too expensive.

I think an average game keeps you out of trouble for 10 hours. Thats £4 an hour. Here's some things you can do for fun that cost the same or more.

A £25 ticket to a football match - £16 an hour.
Spend an hour in the pub - 3 beers @ £3.50 is £10.50 an hour.
A 2 hour movie at the cinema with a drink costs £10, so £5 an hour.
A £12 book that engrosses you for 3 hours - £4 an hour.

Not all games are worth it - but on these sums, not many aren't - do your research, and let me throw something else into the mix:

Dragon Age (PS3), Fallout 3 (PS3), Oblivion (PC), Any of the 'Total War' games (PC). I own each of these and each have given me well over 100+ hours of entertainment. At £40 a title, thats 40p an hour.

It looks like a lot, but I think you'll find its one of the cheapest forms of entertainment!

 

[SuperG]

I agree with you, Kipper. Lot's of games with a very good bang for the buck per game hour's.
And sure there are exception.

 

[Stryke]

There are only a few games I will buy now, it used to be i would read about a game and maybe try a demo before I buy, not anymore, only a few trusted sources like FM / anything by blizzard / sid meier stuff... and ofc elite 4 when it arrives will be purchased. I don't trust a word published in any magazine now.

I havent bought a single game since spore that doesnt fall into the above category, nor have I downloaded anything (illegal). The vast majority of games I bought pre spore were absolutely attrocious, borderline robbery tbh, spore was the end of it. If developers / publishers want to charge us so much for drivel then I refuse to pay for it.

Over the last 6 years I have spent probably over £700 on WoW subscriptions and expansions (x two and a half for the wife and son) and am happy to pay that price for enjoying a good game, unfortunately few games give such enjoyment, elite did as did its successors and the games mentioned in the first paragraph.

The industry has only itself to blame for the state it is in, incidently it's not just the games industry which is suffering, the movie industry is the same, mind you I'm not suprised, I bought about 5 movies from a certain well loved children's film company only to find that none of them would play on 2 out of 3 of our dvd players... and a lot of movies fall into the rubbish category anyway.

 

[Geraldine]

Hi Stryke
Welcome to the Frontier Forum.

*Yes, I too view some new games as just money-making malware these days. Of late, I've went backwards with cheap older games for the likes of the original XBox, PS1, open source stuff like Oolite, Pioneer, various mods and classic PC games like you would find on GOG. Basically, just because something is old, doesn't mean it's rubbish and conversely just because something is new doesn't mean it's better.

Take the Mass Effect games as an example. I really enjoyed these, but to be honest I could see a whole load of influences within them of past games and even movies. The industry needs to bring back the creativity it had in the early days instead of endlessly churning out shooter after shooter. I just feel sometimes the games industry has got itself into a rut these days.

One way to remedy the situation would be for some well known dev company to have the courage to release something that is different, that is packed with new ideas and that can (on the surface) look like a simple game to interact with but at the same time also contains great (non linear) depth in its gameplay.

Does anyone know of a dev company that could do this?

 

[porl]

I agree with David that the industry should align to a common standard, 25 digit codes are confusing not to mention frustrating, we’ve all typed in a “0” and it was meant to be an “O” or even a “Q”, and have you ever considered someone who has poor eyesight being confronted with this system?
Creating a user account is somewhat pointless as the people you’d be trying to catch out are only too familiar with making up multiple email accounts.
Serialized disk’s would be a fine solution and if it was clearly stated on the disk which type of license you where buying into I can see no harm in it, for example a disk that could not be resold would be offered at a discounted price and a rental disk would be at a premium.
With this system you could even trace back to the point of purchase any mass pirated serial numbers.

I can’t help but wonder which games make the most money, games like GTA and Kinectimals where you pay a one off fee or subscription games like WOW and EVE where you can obtain the game for free but it cost’s a monthly debit to keep playing? If it is the latter then all this a moot point anyway.

 

[Kipper]

For me, a subscription model is only acceptable if the game is evolving, like an MMO - with new content being added and developments being made to further enhance the game.

Clearly an MMO takes more money but I suspect they cost a lot more to keep running; it doesn't all end when the CD's get printed - there's infrastructure and development to consider long term.

For regular 'offline' games - A one off licensing fee is appropriate; with an obligation to patch features that are obviously broken (just like i'd take a broken TV back to the shop!), and with fair additional charges for DLC to extract more life out of a good game.

I do wish that developers should take a few more risks and break the mould with the type of games they make, but I appreciate its a money business and they'll go with what they know will sell though.

 

[JazzyTech]

I'm with Stryke, I haven't purchased a PC game since Spore. What a letdown. I bet Mr. Wright was very disappointed with the final product. This was the final straw that broke this PC user's back. I tossed everything MS related into a closet never to be used again.
I found that there are quite a lot of fun games that are open source or ask a modest price. I was impressed by the quality of some of the free games like VegaStrike, in spite of its unfinished state.
Being accustomed to all the original, truly creative games that appeared through the 80s, it's tough to find a genuinely good innovative game. Elite and Frontier are at the top of my list, along with SimCity(s), Railroad tycoon(s), RollerCoasterTycoon3, etc.
As a PS3 owner, I always wait until the games fall to an acceptable price range. If they do not, I don't buy. Period.
If it weren't for a pirated disk of Frontier, I would have never heard of the game and purchased the original!
No matter how much effort is put into copy/fraud protection, there will always be someone hacking and spreading it in one form or another. I certainly don't condone piracy. The ability to "try before you buy" is covered by most all games in one way or another these days.

Elite Dangerous has given me hope that when done in this way (via kickstarter) there can be games that are truly spectacular like I remember from the past.