To all complaining traders and pirates: adapt to asymmetric gameplay!

I have seen a lot of threads from traders and pirates complaining about either being interdicted to frequently by pirates and having no chance to escape or defend themselves on the one hand, and by frustrated pirates who seem to be unable to successfully practice their honorable profession, because traders just submit to interdiction and then FSD out before the pirates can do any significant amount of damage.

Although I agree the later (the infamous "interdiction submission exploit") needs some attention from FD (and as far as I remember they are indeed aware of the issue), I'd urge all pirates and traders to understand that the professions they choose are prime examples of what is nowadays called "asymmetric gameplay" - be it in PVP or in PVE - and therefore in stark contrast to what people are used to from modern FPS like Call Of Duty.

To pirates: traders need a chance to escape you, since they normally can't fight you.

To traders: interdiction is necessary to make the pirate and bounty hunter professions possible!

Sometimes loosing either (traders loosing fights or pirates being unable to destroy their targets before they escape) is part of the game! By choosing one of these professions you willingly choose a asymmetric play style, where the opponent has other means to "win" the encounter then yourself.

So please stop complaining about the other side winning sometimes! Seeing both kind of complains in the forum (traders or even explorers who can't escape interdicting ships and pirates who are unable to take down their targets in time) is indeed an indication that the system is more balanced than many commanders claim, IMHO.
If you guys don't want to play this kind of asymmetric PVP and PVE, stick to bounty hunting, where both parties (pirate and bounty hunter) are essentially combat ships and what therefore might more resemble traditional, symmetric gameplay like that found in normal FPS!

I , on the other hand, like this approach of asymmetric gameplay a lot, since it finally opens the possibility to really play different roles in multiplayer games (as opposed to roles in games like for example WoW, where even healers (supposed support classes) can easily win one-on-one fights against damage dealers)
 
You've missed the point.

Pirates/murderers can operate in isolation, if the FSD cool-down is adjusted for traders, they'll simply have no way to counter these players as they can't summon help and groups are non-existent.
 
What about those traders complaining that they never get interdicted?
I really love the mechanic. But I never get a chance to enjoy it. There just aren't any Pirate cmdrs around where I trade. It's part of my rpg-like gameplay, if you get robbed, give the robber what you want or fight him off. Each case requires Pirates to interdict me. I miss the interaction with other players a bit...
 
You've missed the point.

Pirates/murderers can operate in isolation, if the FSD cool-down is adjusted for traders, they'll simply have no way to counter these players as they can't summon help and groups are non-existent.

No, I didn't miss that point, hence I said:

Although I agree the later (the infamous "interdiction submission exploit") needs some attention from FD (and as far as I remember they are indeed aware of the issue)...

I don't claim adjusting the FSD cool-down so they can't escape would be the solution. I am merely pointing out that the current system may need some work and that the devs are aware of this possible exploit.
 
What about those traders complaining that they never get interdicted?
I really love the mechanic. But I never get a chance to enjoy it. There just aren't any Pirate cmdrs around where I trade. It's part of my rpg-like gameplay, if you get robbed, give the robber what you want or fight him off. Each case requires Pirates to interdict me. I miss the interaction with other players a bit...

The majority of traders responding to these threads have stated they don't mind dropping a few tonnes of cargo, assuming the RP is there. It's when pirating and murder become homogeneous without the RP.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

No, I didn't miss that point, hence I said:



I don't claim adjusting the FSD cool-down so they can't escape would be the solution. I am merely pointing out that the current system may need some work and that the devs are aware of this possible exploit.

Well if you can't see the contradiction in your own post, I can't help you.
 
Interesting post, thanks.

In my opinion the complaints come from Frontiers fundamental game design flaws.
Many people playing ED come from an Elite background (including me), and many are newer to the franchise.
Hopefully without over-generalizing, the two groups want the game to be different things, and FD have managed to produce something that is neither.

In Elite, players could chose safe trading with low profits, or more risky operations for higher rewards. Pirates had a pretty poor time of it (being all NPCs didn't help their cause)
But even in the anarchies, there were no situations where a player would definitely lose his ship. Skill enabled survival anywhere. This is how it should be.

ED fails everywhere, because there is no reward for trading away from secure system, and you can easily find yourself (in any system) in a situation where no amount of skill will help.
Pirates have virtually no chance of doing anything. It is poor game design.
The interdiction minigame does not work, with a pretty much random (and sometimes non-existent) escape vector, and traders with expensive ships cannot afford to pay for the damage occurred by an avoidance attempt that fails due to buggy code, so they have to submit.
After submission it should not (again in my opinion) be an automatic win for the pirate. If it is so, then the Elite franchise is broken.

Traders are not complaining directly about pirates, and pirates are not complaining directly about traders. Everyone just wants a mechanic that works.
 
Its not broken, it is working fine. Interdiction is part of the game. Pure traders just need to cope with it.


They are, they are coming to SOLO......lol.... :)

To the OP, I take it you are going to play as the sheep then? You enjoy getting interdicted when un-armed? You enjoy the work of hours being destroyed in seconds?......no? but all your words.........Oooooooohhh.....you are ANOTHER "Pirate" demanding that other players stand down and be shot for YOUR fun............?????

Where is the fun for the trader????.......Solo mode...... :)
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
The majority of traders responding to these threads have stated they don't mind dropping a few tonnes of cargo, assuming the RP is there. It's when pirating and murder become homogeneous without the RP.

This is silly.

If every encounter was guaranteed for the trader to just dump cargo then all that would happen, predictably, would be the same thing over and over. Why even bother rp'ing when you know u just need to drop a few tons, just drop them right away and FSD out to save time.

How about people stop getting attached to their virtual credits or is everyone saying that without their expensive ship and crap load of cash the game isn't worth playing?
 
They are, they are coming to SOLO......lol.... :)

To the OP, I take it you are going to play as the sheep then? You enjoy getting interdicted when un-armed? You enjoy the work of hours being destroyed in seconds?......no? but all your words.........Oooooooohhh.....you are ANOTHER "Pirate" demanding that other players stand down and be shot for YOUR fun............?????

Where is the fun for the trader????.......Solo mode...... :)

I am a trader, but just to finance my main interest in the game, exploration.

If I am interdicted by a pirate and can't manage to fight him off and therefore lose a lot of money, I am not happy about it, but I definitely don't run crying to the forum, demanding save and riskless gameplay. My point being: if you decide to be a trader in a game called "Elite: Dangerous", don't expect to be able to go about your business without risk. If you don't like the fact that trading in space is dangerous, play some other game whose design excludes the risk of being attacked.

And btw., the value of your posts does not grow proportionally to the number of periods and question marks you use.

Edit: sorry, saw your reply wasn't directed at me, but my point stands as it is.
 
Last edited:
This is silly.

If every encounter was guaranteed for the trader to just dump cargo then all that would happen, predictably, would be the same thing over and over. Why even bother rp'ing when you know u just need to drop a few tons, just drop them right away and FSD out to save time.

How about people stop getting attached to their virtual credits or is everyone saying that without their expensive ship and crap load of cash the game isn't worth playing?

I was posting for brevity, can you not see beyond that? Would you like me to flowchart every action and reaction?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I am a trader, but just to finance my main interest in the game, exploration.

If I am interdicted by a pirate and can't manage to fight him off and therefore lose a lot of money, I am not happy about it, but I definitely don't run crying to the forum, demanding save and riskless gameplay. My point being: if you decide to be a trader in a game called "Elite: Dangerous", don't expect to be able to go about your business without risk. If you don't like the fact that trading in space is dangerous, play some other game whose design excludes the risk of being attacked.

And btw., the value of your posts does not grow proportionally to the number of periods and question marks you use.

Edit: sorry, saw your reply wasn't directed at me, but my point stands as it is.

Generally, across several posts covering pirating, murder and trading, the overriding opinion seems to be acceptance that it has a place, but the game mechanics could be improved to make the encounter more dynamic.

And seriously, considering your original post, you should be the last person chiding someone for their posting style.
 
This is silly.

If every encounter was guaranteed for the trader to just dump cargo then all that would happen, predictably, would be the same thing over and over. Why even bother rp'ing when you know u just need to drop a few tons, just drop them right away and FSD out to save time.

How about people stop getting attached to their virtual credits or is everyone saying that without their expensive ship and crap load of cash the game isn't worth playing?

I absolutely support this! Encounters (and ideally most of the game mechanics) should be as unpredictable as possible to keep them interesting. Being interdicted by exactly one shieldless NPC Eagle or Sidewinder in every system just outside civilized space is boring, not because interdictions are bad, but because they always come in the same pattern and you know exactly what is going to happen in every system you jump to. Same goes ideally for PVP encounters: some pirates might be happy with some dropped cargo, others might just be in for the kill. Having different kinds of characters makes RP much more interesting. Not just "reasonable" pirates, but also some lunatics who are just there for the adrenaline!
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Traders are not complaining directly about pirates, and pirates are not complaining directly about traders. Everyone just wants a mechanic that works.

There isn't a fix for it. There isn't going to be anything that works because there are no options. Both ships need to be around long enough for one ship to destroy the other or it's a complete fail for piracy. You don't even have a chance to communicate because your prey can flee by the time you've typed your message (No I trade right now, I don't pirate).

There's nowhere to hide or run to in space. No asteroid fields or space hulks are floating around to hide in. Changing the time for cool down won't work because that punishes the traders or does it? Maybe the traders should have to pay for escorts but then you need to make sure that the trade routes are policed and that means making systems with a large police presence for safe routes (that pirates won't bother with) and the not safe routes where traders have to buy escorts.

This doesn't exist in ED - all systems seems to be the same, no trader can hire an escort and do their are no safe trade routes.

In the originals, you got into a fight you either fought or died pretty much and you didn't go into anarchy systems until you knew you could kick some ass (not to mention the times where it was a complete drag to get to a station because pirates just kept coming and coming to the point of boredom).
 
I have seen a lot of threads from traders and pirates complaining about either being interdicted to frequently by pirates and having no chance to escape or defend themselves on the one hand, and by frustrated pirates who seem to be unable to successfully practice their honorable profession, because traders just submit to interdiction and then FSD out before the pirates can do any significant amount of damage.

Although I agree the later (the infamous "interdiction submission exploit") needs some attention from FD (and as far as I remember they are indeed aware of the issue), I'd urge all pirates and traders to understand that the professions they choose are prime examples of what is nowadays called "asymmetric gameplay" - be it in PVP or in PVE - and therefore in stark contrast to what people are used to from modern FPS like Call Of Duty.

To pirates: traders need a chance to escape you, since they normally can't fight you.

To traders: interdiction is necessary to make the pirate and bounty hunter professions possible!

Sometimes loosing either (traders loosing fights or pirates being unable to destroy their targets before they escape) is part of the game! By choosing one of these professions you willingly choose a asymmetric play style, where the opponent has other means to "win" the encounter then yourself.

So please stop complaining about the other side winning sometimes! Seeing both kind of complains in the forum (traders or even explorers who can't escape interdicting ships and pirates who are unable to take down their targets in time) is indeed an indication that the system is more balanced than many commanders claim, IMHO.
If you guys don't want to play this kind of asymmetric PVP and PVE, stick to bounty hunting, where both parties (pirate and bounty hunter) are essentially combat ships and what therefore might more resemble traditional, symmetric gameplay like that found in normal FPS!

I , on the other hand, like this approach of asymmetric gameplay a lot, since it finally opens the possibility to really play different roles in multiplayer games (as opposed to roles in games like for example WoW, where even healers (supposed support classes) can easily win one-on-one fights against damage dealers)

You are missing the point OP. Pirating is NOT possible right now because of the trader HAXS to get away. Traders got a TON of money, they should not grumble as much as they do to feed the food chain, pirates cannot even make a LIVING right now, what is so hard to understand that?

And for all the traders saying ''oh well I will cower off to solo'', then see ya, dont let the door hit you on the way out. If you want immunity from piracy then what is the difference if you leave to solo? I dont care ... BYE!

We will wait until either the 'hardcore traders' stay in or come to open (which they will) or ED balanced it so the 'pitiful' traders dont have a choice anymore other than to go or accept fairness! (and not let the door hit them on the way out).

Trading is so profitable right now, the most profitable thing you can do in the game!!! Why do you think that is? Its so the money can run down the line! Trader > Pirate> Bouty hunter. Grow some.
 
Last edited:
I absolutely support this! Encounters (and ideally most of the game mechanics) should be as unpredictable as possible to keep them interesting. Being interdicted by exactly one shieldless NPC Eagle or Sidewinder in every system just outside civilized space is boring, not because interdictions are bad, but because they always come in the same pattern and you know exactly what is going to happen in every system you jump to. Same goes ideally for PVP encounters: some pirates might be happy with some dropped cargo, others might just be in for the kill. Having different kinds of characters makes RP much more interesting. Not just "reasonable" pirates, but also some lunatics who are just there for the adrenaline!

Again you miss the point.

Of course there is a place for every play style. The penalties for being an outright murderer simply don't stack up and the chances of that player incurring the wrath of the system police are minimal in an interdicted encounter. Therefore the trader is at a distinct disadvantage whilst there is no comms or groups to call for support.

No one, and I want to make this absolutely clear, is suggesting that pirating and murder shouldn't exist. Murder is a capital crime, in lawful systems as in our country there is nothing more serious, a 400c fine simply doesn't reflect the impact. You get more for loitering. Murder and pirating and the response to these offences needs to be looked at because at the moment they are carried out in impunity. Other games have failed to tackle what essentially becomes ganking, griefing, call it what you will and have suffered because of it. I'm sure everyone would agree a balanced play style that is enjoyable for everyone is the preference.
 
Generally, across several posts covering pirating, murder and trading, the overriding opinion seems to be acceptance that it has a place, but the game mechanics could be improved to make the encounter more dynamic.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't think interdictions or trader-pirate-PVP encounters are perfect atm., hence I mentioned the exploit because of which traders can always escape and pirates never succeed in their "pirating" and that the developers already mentioned they are aware of the issue. I am not criticizing people who think the mechanics could be improved upon, I just think many people who chose the "pirate" and "trader" professions and now complain about their inherit game mechanics didn't understand that those professions where never supposed to work totally symmetric and that both parties should have sympathy for the other side when they lose an encounter themselves.

And seriously, considering your original post, you should be the last person chiding someone for their posting style.

Could you please point out where in my original post I used multiple punctuation marks, words just in capital letters or lurid writing style to put more emphasis on what I wrote and therefore am unqualified to "chide" someone for his try to put more emphasis on his suggestive statements by just adding ".....?????" to every line? The single formatting I used where two underlined words which I wanted to point out.
 
I absolutely support this! Encounters (and ideally most of the game mechanics) should be as unpredictable as possible to keep them interesting. Being interdicted by exactly one shieldless NPC Eagle or Sidewinder in every system just outside civilized space is boring, not because interdictions are bad, but because they always come in the same pattern and you know exactly what is going to happen in every system you jump to. Same goes ideally for PVP encounters: some pirates might be happy with some dropped cargo, others might just be in for the kill. Having different kinds of characters makes RP much more interesting. Not just "reasonable" pirates, but also some lunatics who are just there for the adrenaline!

I think that pirates should have a "notoriety" rating perhaps determined by the amount of abandoned cargo they have collected. This would be visible when they are scanned and give the victim an indication of whether the pirate is a "proper" pirate or a psycho out for a kill. PKs would also reduce the notoriety rating.
 
Last edited:
I hate to be a pedant.

But i guess you mean adapt?

or else your own title says traders ARE very skilled at asymmetric game play.
[h=2][/h]
 
I have seen a lot of threads from traders and pirates complaining about either being interdicted to frequently by pirates and having no chance to escape or defend themselves on the one hand, and by frustrated pirates who seem to be unable to successfully practice their honorable profession, because traders just submit to interdiction and then FSD out before the pirates can do any significant amount of damage.

Although I agree the later (the infamous "interdiction submission exploit") needs some attention from FD (and as far as I remember they are indeed aware of the issue), I'd urge all pirates and traders to understand that the professions they choose are prime examples of what is nowadays called "asymmetric gameplay" - be it in PVP or in PVE - and therefore in stark contrast to what people are used to from modern FPS like Call Of Duty.

To pirates: traders need a chance to escape you, since they normally can't fight you.

To traders: interdiction is necessary to make the pirate and bounty hunter professions possible!

Sometimes loosing either (traders loosing fights or pirates being unable to destroy their targets before they escape) is part of the game! By choosing one of these professions you willingly choose a asymmetric play style, where the opponent has other means to "win" the encounter then yourself.

So please stop complaining about the other side winning sometimes! Seeing both kind of complains in the forum (traders or even explorers who can't escape interdicting ships and pirates who are unable to take down their targets in time) is indeed an indication that the system is more balanced than many commanders claim, IMHO.
If you guys don't want to play this kind of asymmetric PVP and PVE, stick to bounty hunting, where both parties (pirate and bounty hunter) are essentially combat ships and what therefore might more resemble traditional, symmetric gameplay like that found in normal FPS!

I , on the other hand, like this approach of asymmetric gameplay a lot, since it finally opens the possibility to really play different roles in multiplayer games (as opposed to roles in games like for example WoW, where even healers (supposed support classes) can easily win one-on-one fights against damage dealers)

Personally I don't mind assymmetric gameplay. What I don't like is the ease with which NPCs can simply be ignored by pirates/bounty hunters/murderers who want to target players exclusively. Only a subset of players do that of course, but imo it goes against the game's intent and ignores a whole swathe of targets of opportunity. I can't put my finger on it but I can't help but think that ignoring NPCs to target only players somehow exacerbates the impact of assymetric gameplay that would otherwise not be as significant or at least not as noticeable as it tends to be in PvP. The game is not meant to played SOLELY as a PvP experience so I tend think that a player who pursues PvP as their main gameplay mechanic will have more issues with the assymmetry than someone who mixes in more PvE, as intended.
 
Could you please point out where in my original post I used multiple punctuation marks, words just in capital letters or lurid writing style

I didn't say that, anyway you asked:

To all complaining traders and pirates: adept to asymmetric gameplay!
I have seen a lot of threads from traders and pirates complaining about either being interdicted to frequently by pirates and having no chance to escape or defend themselves on the one hand, and by frustrated pirates who seem to be unable to successfully practice their honorable profession, because traders just submit to interdiction and then FSD out before the pirates can do any significant amount of damage.

Although I agree the later (the infamous "interdiction submission exploit") needs some attention from FD (and as far as I remember they are indeed aware of the issue), I'd urge all pirates and traders to understand that the professions they choose are prime examples of what is nowadays called "asymmetric gameplay" - be it in PVP or in PVE - and therefore in stark contrast to what people are used to from modern FPS like Call Of Duty.

To pirates: traders need a chance to escape you, since they normally can't fight you.

To traders: interdiction is necessary to make the pirate and bounty hunter professions possible!

Sometimes loosing either (traders loosing fights or pirates being unable to destroy their targets before they escape) is part of the game! By choosing one of these professions you willingly choose a asymmetric play style, where the opponent has other means to "win" the encounter then yourself.

So please stop complaining about the other side winning sometimes! Seeing both kind of complains in the forum (traders or even explorers who can't escape interdicting ships and pirates who are unable to take down their targets in time) is indeed an indication that the system is more balanced than many commanders claim, IMHO.
If you guys don't want to play this kind of asymmetric PVP and PVE, stick to bounty hunting, where both parties (pirate and bounty hunter) are essentially combat ships and what therefore might more resemble traditional, symmetric gameplay like that found in normal FPS!

I , on the other hand, like this approach of asymmetric gameplay a lot, since it finally opens the possibility to really play different roles in multiplayer games (as opposed to roles in games like for example WoW, where even healers (supposed support classes) can easily win one-on-one fights against damage dealers)

So aside from the errors in your post, you're using asymmetric to excuse imbalance.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom