Proposal: Remove the STOLEN flag

[Troozers]

In the case of those missions its clearly stated that the missions are illegal. When its for the military you can think of it as black ops missions. You get caught, they will deny all knowledge of you and the mission. If you try and claim they gave you the mission, then you might expect you would end up having a nasty accident involving a staircase, a pair of electrodes, and a bucket of water.

You know it never occured to me to think of these missions as a Black Op!

Did you miss the "Activity considered illegal" note on the mission when you accepted it?

The stolen flag and the circumstances under which it is set are not the problem, the other mechanics around it just need developing.

Yeah I did notice that it states in some missions that this activity is considered illegal, but it doesn't appear in all of them and that is what confuses me, it's when the Illegal Activity Notice doesn't appear we should at least get a Salvage Licence or something similar.

Salvage permits: These should indeed be a thing. Lets you legally scoop free-floating cargo in the system, having it marked as "salvage" rather than "stolen" but so as they don't introduce a hole pirates can use, the cops will only honor your salvage permit if you're locally clean. If you're not then they treat "salvage" as "stolen" - you can either surrender your salvaged cargo to the station authorities for half price (yes this is INTENTIONALLY the same as what you could get for it if you smuggled it and sold it on the black market) and keep your salvage permit for future use, or sell it for full price on the black market, losing your salvage permit in the process. That way most salvaged stuff you'll want to get rid of legally, but if you stumble across some seriously high profit cans you might be tempted to "divert". The authorities take a dim view of it and will void your permit but for twice the profit it might be something a cmdr considers "worth it"

Add this depth and with it the ability for an ingenious pirate or smuggler to make higher incomes by playing "smart" and the current "stolen" flag mechanic ceases to be an issue.

I think it would definitely add a new dynamic to the game and possibly, if taken to its logical conclusion, it could introduce a new career type, the Salvagers. Salvaging derelict craft & abandoned, dealing in spare parts and finding and selling lost goods.
I think we need to try and use some Maritime Law and apply it for Space, like defining Flotsam and Jetsam.
Taken from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flotsam,_jetsam,_lagan_and_derelict

In maritime law, flotsam, jetsam, lagan and derelict are specific kinds of shipwreck. The words have specific nautical meanings, with legal consequences in the law of admiralty and marine salvage:

• Flotsam is floating wreckage of a ship or its cargo.
• Jetsam is part of a ship, its equipment, or its cargo that is purposely cast overboard or jettisoned to lighten the load in time of distress and is washed ashore.
• Lagan (also called ligan) is goods or wreckage that is lying on the bottom of the ocean, sometimes marked by a buoy, which can be reclaimed.
• Derelict is cargo that is also on the bottom of the ocean, but which no one has any hope of reclaiming (in other maritime contexts, derelict may also refer to a drifting abandoned ship).

 

[DaveB]

Yeah I did notice that it states in some missions that this activity is considered illegal, but it doesn't appear in all of them and that is what confuses me, it's when the Illegal Activity Notice doesn't appear we should at least get a Salvage Licence or something similar.

If there is a mission that requires you to haul illegal or stolen cargo, and that note does not appear it is a bug and should be ticketed. I've never seen one that would require me to break the law without it.

 

[Gorf]

Because the current mechanics are boring and simplistic...

I've got a solution that is simplistic but it relieves the boredom (a bit).

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You see that flashing box in the side of a cargo canister? It's the 3301 equivalent of the "Documents Enclosed" sticker on a piece of post in 2015. (I made that bit up, but bear with me.)

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When cargo is ejected into space, it starts to deteriorate - except when you find a wreck at a USS, but I reckon that's just an oversight.

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Anyway - the cargo tracker deteriorates at the same rate as the canister it's attached to. When it gets to (say) 20%, there's no way for the authorities to tell if this is stolen, abandoned or your own reclaimed cargo that you dropped to distract a pirate before turning about and ramming him into oblivion. So when a "stolen" canister drops below this level, its essentially abandoned and can be traded as normal.

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The reason this adds a bit of spice is that the scooper will need to think carefully about what gets scooped and when. It's no longer a case of scooping what's nearest, you need to scoop based on what's most deteriorated. If there's too much to scoop, you might just have to scoop it while it's still over 20% and run the associated risk back at port.

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A player might jettison a couple of tonnes of gold when interdicted by a pirate: The latter will need to weigh up the benefit of waiting for it to deteriorate to abandoned status versus the risk of getting nothing if it takes time to blow the trader up.

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The best bit - it's practically zero coding by FD. There's already a flag that determines the status (stolen or abandoned) for a cargo canister. They just need to decide on the percentage trigger and flop the flag.

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They could make it even more nailbiting by setting the failure point of the tracker to a random number between 20% and 40% (or whatever) and the only way the CMDR knows is if the light is no longer flashing on the canister - but that's probably more coding than they have time for right now.

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...And destroyed ships should leave a couple of canisters behind, too.

Agreed. But at a massively reduced integrity. If canisters can survive an explosion that decimates a ship, the shipbuilders will start making ships out of the same stuff canisters are made from.

 

[Gizardpuke]

Now I get the idea of the stolen flag, but its not fully implemented and only impedes logic in the game right now.

It becomes illogical and greately reduces the income of NPC pirating, which is already a lost cause mostly.

For example of the illogical nature.

I killed a pirate in a res. He dropped 10 palladium (true story). At 14k each, not bad at all! But.. its really 7k on the black market. Ok still not "bad" but then if I picked one up a random scan by the local authority will make me wanted. Great, because THEY WERE ATTACKING THE PIRATE TOO. No logic at all.

Even in an anarchy system, you have to use the black market, its just silly.

Simply removing the stolen flags, and making black markets buy really illegal goods for a actual markup (slaves, drugs etc should sell for more where they are illegal, not 50% less), would go a nice way to making piracy and salves actually worth the time to scoop.

Right now, the risk/reward/time means just ignore all cargo. Why should I risk a large fine or worse destruction, over a pittance worth of cargo?

admittedly, while i care not for pvp, i do find it interesting that the black market pays half price for stolen goods, when in reality, they pay anything up to 5x for rare stolen goods.
problem is, its far too exploitable. if your going to get rid of the "stolen" flag, then you might as well get rid of all the black markets as well.

 

[S.P-A.]

Mostly agree with what you said. This tag has almost no usefulness right now.

It can be restored when the mechanic around it is fully fledged.

 

[DaveB]

...And destroyed ships should leave a couple of canisters behind, too.

Agreed. But at a massively reduced integrity. If canisters can survive an explosion that decimates a ship, the shipbuilders will start making ships out of the same stuff canisters are made from.

This is one thing I don't agree with. It takes away pretty much the only incentive to pirates to actually pirate rather than go mindless pewpew and scoop the debris. If you want to steal cargo, you have three options already - negotiate for it (under threat, you're a pirate after all), shoot out the cargo hatch or use limpets. Sink the ship and the cargo you hoped to steal goes to Davey Jones' Locker with it.

 

[CdrTwisted]

Now I get the idea of the stolen flag, but its not fully implemented and only impedes logic in the game right now.

It becomes illogical and greately reduces the income of NPC pirating, which is already a lost cause mostly.

For example of the illogical nature.

I killed a pirate in a res. He dropped 10 palladium (true story). At 14k each, not bad at all! But.. its really 7k on the black market. Ok still not "bad" but then if I picked one up a random scan by the local authority will make me wanted. Great, because THEY WERE ATTACKING THE PIRATE TOO. No logic at all.

Even in an anarchy system, you have to use the black market, its just silly.

Simply removing the stolen flags, and making black markets buy really illegal goods for a actual markup (slaves, drugs etc should sell for more where they are illegal, not 50% less), would go a nice way to making piracy and salves actually worth the time to scoop.

Right now, the risk/reward/time means just ignore all cargo. Why should I risk a large fine or worse destruction, over a pittance worth of cargo?

Why do you need to get a fine? Don't hang around in USSs where there are police and when you go to a spinning station make sure get through the letter box at high speed to avoid being scanned. It just takes a bit of skill and nerve.

I don't think the stolen flag needs to be remove from the game altogether, but I do think that some adjustment might be in order. The scenaro that I have in mind is that I go to a USS, when I get there there are only some canisters (of whatever) just floating there. There are other other ships around as all. If I pick up those canisters, the are marked stolen.

I think that should be adjusted, those canisters are salvage. Now, if they are "rare artworks" or similar, sure mark them as stolen - after all anyone caught with the Mona Lisa will have stolen it - it's obvious as we all know that the original is hanging in my hall (yep, it's a copy in Paris ;-)) but if the item is "Animal meat" or "Palladium" is actually very common, so why not remove the stolen marking in that scenario.

The OP was talking about removing the flag from cargo dropped from NPC's. I'm disagree with that, stealing is stealing - you've stolen the items from an NPC and probably killed them as well, so shame on you you murdering cheapskate - own your crime and be done with it.

The cargo is stolen. Just because it wasn't stolen by a player doesn't make it any less stolen. And the cargo canisters are trackable so someone has to do the hard work of laundering the contents somehow.

Because the current mechanics are boring and simplistic.

The whole system around legality of cargo needs an overhaul. Currently it's pointless to be a smuggler, since there's no real payout for it that makes it worth the effort and the potential huge loss of rep, and no real black market economy. Salvage is a waste of time and module space for anyone who might have just dabbled in it with a deeper system. Piracy usually ends up in a murder case because of the weak mechanics around cargo on a number of fronts.

Crime in general is by far the most-neglected profession area in the game; there's just not many interesting dynamics around it, from the crime itself to its repercussions. Expanding the methods to handle cargo in legal and less-legal ways allows a much richer experience for everyone on any side of the law.

You can make decent money by collecting canisters from USSs. It's just a matter of avoid cops and being lucky not to get to much Biowaste or Chemical Waste.

 

[Darkwolf]

IMO cargo should only be flagged as stolen if it was taken during the commissioning of a crime. So, if you attack someone's that's got a bounty on them and they decide to jet their cargo to dissuade you, that cargo isn't marked as stolen.

If you stumble across containers left behind as salvage in a USS, they aren't marked as stolen. But if you attack a clean trader, shoot off their hatch and collect up the cargo, that's marked as stolen.

 

[Jmanis]

Why do you need to get a fine? Don't hang around in USSs where there are police and when you go to a spinning station make sure get through the letter box at high speed to avoid being scanned. It just takes a bit of skill and nerve.

^^ This. Also, if you've got hot cargo and don't want to get caught, make like hell to the nearest black market. See my next point for an addition to this

Plus, the OP's logic:

I killed a pirate in a res. He dropped 10 palladium (true story). At 14k each, not bad at all! But.. its really 7k on the black market. Ok still not "bad" but then if I picked one up a random scan by the local authority will make me wanted. Great, because THEY WERE ATTACKING THE PIRATE TOO. No logic at all.

Is utterly flawed. If a cop was having a shootout with a robber and kills him, the cop, and any passer-by can't just come and pick up the televisions the robber had in his car. Let's just say you managed to grab one, somehow. Fair chance that's pretty conspicuous and you'll at least get noticed. You *definitely* do not want to stop by the grocery store to get some milk on the way home in that case, that's just asking for trouble. This logic also works for salvage items.

I think the stolen goods mechanic is fine, you want something fenced, you aren't doing that for the price you could store-buy something. The "illegal goods" mechanic however, needs a change. Illegal goods should sell for a premium at stations where they are illegal, as there's a black demand there, and scarcity makes it worth more. But such a buff should go hand in hand with making it *harder* to smuggle goods. As it stands, getting Illegal/Stolen cargo into non-outpost stations is way too easy. Happy leaving outposts as they are, coz that would actually make a fair tradeoff between using small-medium cargoships (anything up to the T6) to supply outposts with illegal goods, versus the impressive profits of standard trade with larger vessels which need bigger docking stations.

 

[Roybe]

^^ This. Also, if you've got hot cargo and don't want to get caught, make like hell to the nearest black market. See my next point for an addition to this

Plus, the OP's logic:


Is utterly flawed. If a cop was having a shootout with a robber and kills him, the cop, and any passer-by can't just come and pick up the televisions the robber had in his car. Let's just say you managed to grab one, somehow. Fair chance that's pretty conspicuous and you'll at least get noticed. You *definitely* do not want to stop by the grocery store to get some milk on the way home in that case, that's just asking for trouble. This logic also works for salvage items.

I think the stolen goods mechanic is fine, you want something fenced, you aren't doing that for the price you could store-buy something. The "illegal goods" mechanic however, needs a change. Illegal goods should sell for a premium at stations where they are illegal, as there's a black demand there, and scarcity makes it worth more. But such a buff should go hand in hand with making it *harder* to smuggle goods. As it stands, getting Illegal/Stolen cargo into non-outpost stations is way too easy. Happy leaving outposts as they are, coz that would actually make a fair tradeoff between using small-medium cargoships (anything up to the T6) to supply outposts with illegal goods, versus the impressive profits of standard trade with larger vessels which need bigger docking stations.

This is a fix that needs to occur. Leave the 50% price on the outposts, but if you actually smuggle some tobacco into a major station that you legally purchased elsewhere there should be a bonus paid for it. There IS a difference between smuggling and fencing. There should be a different game play choice.

 

[Phier]

You can make decent money by collecting canisters from USSs. It's just a matter of avoid cops and being lucky not to get to much Biowaste or Chemical Waste.

"Decent"

No you make very little money. The very first USS I ever dropped in had rare artwork. I was excited, it was TREASURE. Only no it wasn't, AND it was flagged stolen. I just dropped it. This was my in my sidewinder realizing it wasn't worth it.

 

[Hemothorax]

The game needs additional tags:

• Flotsam - Found in the random events where you find a destroyed space ship. Should pay only 10-20% finder's fee, when turning it in at the local authorities who will return it to the rightful owners (or most likely their relatives). Selling it to the black market is also an option, with the risk of being caught. Exeption: When the found stuff is considered illegal, it's still illegal when you try to bring it in.
• Loot - Taken from pirates and wanted fugitives. Local authoroties could still issue a special tax, making it worth 70% their base value, but still makes it worth wile
• Stolen - Only true when actually stolen or pirated, and only sellable at the black market.

Currently, the whole "Stolen" system is infuriatingly broken, and reminds me of the utterly broken system of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, where guards could detect a stolen feather from a distance...

 

[AlexRyder]

Illegal goods should also always fetch full price, no matter if stolen or not.

That's ridiculous. It's a fact of life that you can't fence stolen property for the market value.

 

[Doctor Axel]

The game needs additional tags:

• Flotsam - Found in the random events where you find a destroyed space ship. Should pay only 10-20% finder's fee, when turning it in at the local authorities who will return it to the rightful owners (or most likely their relatives). Selling it to the black market is also an option, with the risk of being caught. Exeption: When the found stuff is considered illegal, it's still illegal when you try to bring it in.
• Loot - Taken from pirates and wanted fugitives. Local authoroties could still issue a special tax, making it worth 70% their base value, but still makes it worth wile
• Stolen - Only true when actually stolen or pirated, and only sellable at the black market.

Currently, the whole "Stolen" system is infuriatingly broken, and reminds me of the utterly broken system of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, where guards could detect a stolen feather from a distance...

I like that, in that it divorces salvage from stuff you actually stole, while still exercising a penalty (as there ought to be - the salvage still wasn't technically yours, so you're getting what amounts to a "thank you for returning our stuff" fee.)

I think the main item that needs attention is ILLEGAL goods, which currently must also be sold on the black market, strangely enough at a markDOWN - which is 100% not right. STOLEN goods should be marked down, ILLEGAL goods should be marked up because of the high risk / high scarcity market it creates.

@OP, I understand the sentiment that the STOLEN game mechanic needs work. I'm not really into removing it though - it just needs some love. ^^

 

[Kyudos]

The game needs additional tags:

• Flotsam - Found in the random events where you find a destroyed space ship. Should pay only 10-20% finder's fee, when turning it in at the local authorities who will return it to the rightful owners (or most likely their relatives). Selling it to the black market is also an option, with the risk of being caught. Exception: When the found stuff is considered illegal, it's still illegal when you try to bring it in.
• Loot - Taken from pirates and wanted fugitives. Local authorities could still issue a special tax, making it worth 70% their base value, but still makes it worth wile
• Stolen - Only true when actually stolen or pirated, and only sell able at the black market.

Currently, the whole "Stolen" system is infuriatingly broken, and reminds me of the utterly broken system of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, where guards could detect a stolen feather from a distance...

How can you defend your Loot category as realistic? If the pirate or fugitive bought their stuff legally it is theirs - ergo, you take it, it's STOLEN.
If the pirate or fugitive stole their 'loot' - it's still STOLEN.

I don't understand why people think randomly taking something that was just "lying around" shouldn't be classed as stealing...

 

[Darkwolf]

I don't understand why people think randomly taking something that was just "lying around" shouldn't be classed as stealing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_salvage

Stuff 'lying around' in the middle of space (we can take space as a substitute for the ocean) isn't just 'lost' in the standard sense of the word. It's salvage to take it. Note though, that salvage law gets a little complicated - but it's certainly not common theft.

 

[Phier]

We can try to get all 20th century legal on it as we like, but the problem is right now its a very broken game mechanic and FD hasn't mentioned anything about it since release I've seen.

 

[DefiledDragon]

When you pick up a massive fine for "looting" wanted targets that you kill, there's something wrong. Name one single other MMO where you're penalised for looting the NPC's that you kill.

 

[Dominico]

No thanks dont make my game play easy mode. Anything i pick up is 100% profit not 50%. I like having to find somewhere i can fence it and i like the challenge.
.try trading if you dont like illegal markers on your goods...

Ps if you find a crashed car can you go in the boot and take the stuff? Can you take logs and luggage from a crashed plane or ship?

Can you stop a man who robbed a bank and then, caus you stopped him for the police have all the money.

Can you catch a criminal with stolen artwork then keep said artwork.

Can you grasp difficult game mechanics as a fun challenge and rise to them?

 

[DefiledDragon]

Ps if you find a crashed car can you go in the boot and take the stuff? Can you take logs and luggage from a crashed plane or ship?

Yes, if nobody sees you taking it. It certainly wouldn't be immediately identifiable as "stolen" if you tried to pawn it or sell it to somebody.

Can you stop a man who robbed a bank and then, caus you stopped him for the police have all the money.

You would most likely be given a reward by the bank.

Can you catch a criminal with stolen artwork then keep said artwork.

Again, you would probably be in receipt of some kind of reward.

Can you grasp difficult game mechanics as a fun challenge and rise to them?

It's not a "fun challenge", it's just crap.