The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[huzeeta]

CR's second response to the REC discussion:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4449786/#Comment_4449786

Looks like CIG is around 50% done on the 64bit conversion:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4446853/#Comment_4446853

Clarification:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4448146/#Comment_4448146

 

[Stormprooter]

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/232661/rental-equipment-credits-rec/p1

In other news, CIG is trying to put out a massive fire that is REC. Basically CIG is finally starting to implement a credit system in Arena Commander that will allow people to earn credits and purchase ships/equipment to play with. Awesome right? After 8 months we finally are getting a credit system.

WRONG. What CIG has basically done is made REC a huge grind, a grind comparable to games called "free-mium". Basically the only way to earn credits is to play PvP and it's a massive grind, what is worse is that it's not a permanent unlock for AC, you have to keep earning it over and over to renew the ships/equipment you buy.

Basically, the tone Chris Roberts just put in that post is that one of "Well, we could of gave you nothing, take it how it is or we take it away".

Basically, what CIG is doing with the REC is to force people to buy equipment/ships to play with in AC because the grind is huge. Way to go CIG. This is basically going to make the Pay2Win arguments huge, because CIG just went down the hole of "freemium games.

It seems a little silly to me, when what they (CIG) could have done, is created credits which can be used to buy stuff for Arena Commander only, and can not be taken forward into the PU and other parts of the game, but you still keep your stuff for AC, in AC ? ? ?

Also, to add on the mouse/gimbal thing: It seems to me that this could be fixed by having gimbal weapons track targets automatically, but with a fixed tracking rate, and some level of inaccuracy (like in Elite: Dangerous), the manual aiming for mouse could still be kept as an option - but still subject to gimbal tracking rate and inaccuracy. Where a gimbal has a ridiculous aiming cone, these could be set to fire as auto targetting turrets - again with fixed tracking speed and inaccuracy - I think this would level the playing field. However, I doubt anything like this will get implemented as the current mouse controls have been in there since day 1 of the first AC release, and I'm guessing many mouse users would be up in arms over it, as they would see it as a nerf for the mouse and a buff for the joystick/hotas/gamepad. Tough one.

 

[Zelos1983]

I think gimballed weapons should indeed be handled like here in E, altough in general I like the SC flight model more.

It's funny and ununderstandable to see how people fight so much over REC and VD credits. A lot of backers pledge hundreds and thousands of dollars, yet the community starts fighting over peanuts.

 

[bliss]

So the REC system also applies to the FPS module?

Someone can buy the best gun and have access to it all the time. Others will have to grind it out with lesser weapons? Uggh. I'm not sure how much appeal this will have to first person shooter heads.

 

[Pomerlaw]

I hope CR is ready for all the complaining he is going to get in the coming months. The expectations for this game are crazy. So much hype, and they are partly responsible for it.

 

[MarktJones]

I hope CR is ready for all the complaining he is going to get in the coming months. The expectations for this game are crazy. So much hype, and they are partly responsible for it.

Only partly?

Given the demise of Godus people probably need to calm down their expectations.

 

[Helfix]

It seems a little silly to me, when what they (CIG) could have done, is created credits which can be used to buy stuff for Arena Commander only, and can not be taken forward into the PU and other parts of the game, but you still keep your stuff for AC, in AC ? ? ?

Also, to add on the mouse/gimbal thing: It seems to me that this could be fixed by having gimbal weapons track targets automatically, but with a fixed tracking rate, and some level of inaccuracy (like in Elite: Dangerous), the manual aiming for mouse could still be kept as an option - but still subject to gimbal tracking rate and inaccuracy. Where a gimbal has a ridiculous aiming cone, these could be set to fire as auto targetting turrets - again with fixed tracking speed and inaccuracy - I think this would level the playing field. However, I doubt anything like this will get implemented as the current mouse controls have been in there since day 1 of the first AC release, and I'm guessing many mouse users would be up in arms over it, as they would see it as a nerf for the mouse and a buff for the joystick/hotas/gamepad. Tough one.

I've basically read the second post on the REC credits by CR somebody just linked earlier. I find his post entirely conflicting and even more upsetting than his first post. They were the ones who promised us AC bucks over 8 months ago because people complained they monitized every aspect of development and it was a Pay2Win, cash shop going on. Now he makes it look like they did it "out of the goodness" of their hearts and that they could of never implemented it in the first place. He makes it sound like they just started recently thinking about Ac bucks....I mean this is a test bed for all of their mechanics and you mean to tell me that they were going to charge people REAL MONEY to test equipment and ships all the way until the game is released? That would be an even bigger storm than the "freemium" thing they got going on.

Chris Roberts has entirely missed the point of why people are upset with REC. It's because they basically made it a grind to test equipment and ships. This is what "freemium" games do to force you to either 1). Grind 2). Buy it with real money which is what most do or 3). Quit playing the game. Let's be real here, the only reason they introduced REC was because of Pay2Win debacle and now they have stepped into the "freemium" rabbit hole. They can say it as many times as they want that it is not "freemium" or "grinding" but that is what it is, to just test their game and equipment.

I mean all of us who are playing Arena Commander have already paid for the game, some many times over like myself. Yet you mean to tell me CIG is incapable of giving equipment to players for free to test in AC, but instead they charge people real money for it? Are you telling me CIG is not capable of distinguishing Alpha/Beta testing items, Alpha/Beta equipment from that of what you will have in PU on release day? Seriously? Honestly, I like the idea of REC system, but it needs a huge overhaul on the grind that they have made it. Instead of encouraging people to play AC and test the game even more because of the REC, they have now turned off a lot of people by the greed.

 

[bliss]

There are other systems CIG could have decided to use. Giving paid ships/guns full ownership in Arena Commander, The PU and a 30% Arena Bucks bonus (similar to Mechwarrior Online) Whilst making grind ships/guns full ownership in Arena Commander only. There are still incentives to buy the ship. You are rewarding the player who uses real money with a carrot (30% Arena Bucks bonus). The planned system just beats the free ship user with a stick in the hope of frustrating them enough that they get out their wallet.

 

[Viking]

It's funny and ununderstandable to see how people fight so much over REC and VD credits.

Indeed. I haven't followed the discussions - only heard about it from others - but as usual these few loud voices don't represent the majority.

 

[Helfix]

Indeed. I haven't followed the discussions - only heard about it from others - but as usual these few loud voices don't represent the majority.

What majority? You do realize that the vast majority of the 700,000+ backers are not even playing Arena Commander. Last time CIG released the statistics <40,000 people fired up Arena Commander....People have been scraping data for a few months now from Arena Commander and <8,000 people have more than 1-2 hours playing AC and even smaller numbers more than that.

If this was such a small issue then why is CIG addressing it. Why are the Main SC and every other forum that has SC on it talking about this issue? Could it be that this is actually not just a few loud voices, but a huge chunk of the actual active community up in arms about it?

Yep, no way, this is just a few loud voices *rolls eyes*

 

[adoredtv]

What majority? You do realize that the vast majority of the 700,000+ backers are not even playing Arena Commander. Last time CIG released the statistics <40,000 people fired up Arena Commander....People have been scraping data for a few months now from Arena Commander and <8,000 people have more than 1-2 hours playing AC and even smaller numbers more than that.

If this was such a small issue then why is CIG addressing it. Why are the Main SC and every other forum that has SC on it talking about this issue? Could it be that this is actually not just a few loud voices, but a huge chunk of the actual active community up in arms about it?

Yep, no way, this is just a few loud voices *rolls eyes*

If this question sounds stupid it probably is because I've really not been following SC as closely as I should have.

When you talk about "Arena Commander" do you just mean the module where you fly around in asteroids in the "simulation" thing or do you mean the actual pvp aspect of it? I've spent maybe 2 hrs flying around just getting used to the ship handling (it's different) and wouldn't dare go near an actual pvp environment until I was far, far more confident in my ability. Does this pvp "Arena" actually exist or is it just in the PTR/PU...whatever they call it?

 

[Stormprooter]

I mean all of us who are playing Arena Commander have already paid for the game, some many times over like myself. Yet you mean to tell me CIG is incapable of giving equipment to players for free to test in AC, but instead they charge people real money for it? Are you telling me CIG is not capable of distinguishing Alpha/Beta testing items, Alpha/Beta equipment from that of what you will have in PU on release day? Seriously? Honestly, I like the idea of REC system, but it needs a huge overhaul on the grind that they have made it. Instead of encouraging people to play AC and test the game even more because of the REC, they have now turned off a lot of people by the greed.

I'm not certain if you are asking me those questions, or the community at large, or perhaps they are rhetorical?
Anyway, in simple terms, my take on it would be to be able to earn ACC (arena commander credits), with which you can buy ships & equipment for use in Arena Commander only, along with any other stuff you have purchased with real money.
This provides an alternative to using real-world cash, and also provides a kind of progression.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If this question sounds stupid it probably is because I've really not been following SC as closely as I should have.

When you talk about "Arena Commander" do you just mean the module where you fly around in asteroids in the "simulation" thing or do you mean the actual pvp aspect of it? I've spent maybe 2 hrs flying around just getting used to the ship handling (it's different) and wouldn't dare go near an actual pvp environment until I was far, far more confident in my ability. Does this pvp "Arena" actually exist or is it just in the PTR/PU...whatever they call it?

Arena Commander includes the racing and PvP part as well.

 

[adoredtv]

Arena Commander includes the racing and PvP part as well.

So basically what Helfix is saying is that less than 6% of people (40000/700000) have even loaded up that part of the game? Wow. That has to mean that people are just waiting on the full game release I guess. Maybe the word "Arena" is putting them off also as anyone who isn't in to pvp will probably avoid that like the plague due to it's (elite) pvp connotations.

 

[Stormprooter]

So basically what Helfix is saying is that less than 6% of people (40000/700000) have even loaded up that part of the game? Wow. That has to mean that people are just waiting on the full game release I guess. Maybe the word "Arena" is putting them off also as anyone who isn't in to pvp will probably avoid that like the plague due to it's (elite) pvp connotations.

Yep, I suspect that is the case. Most people do wait for a full release as they'd rather jump in when the game is feature-complete, and don't want to have an overly-buggy experience.
I can understand this, as I have been involved with Star Citizen from the beginning, and also with Elite: Dangerous. It's been great to get an early look at both of these games, and a new experience for me, in terms of helping out with testing and bug reporting - but I would think very carefully about doing it again as it can be a bit of a rollercoaster ride.

 

[Zelos1983]

I know some people that have just backed it because they like the idea behind it - they even don't have a rig that can run it.

"Arena Commander" is the ingame simulator, it contains two "Asteroid" maps with different game modes and three racing maps. Besides the Hangar (showcase for the ships and other items), it is currently the only module that has playable content.

Personally, I have installed everything, but rarely spend time with it. As it is in early alpha, I tend to do things like walk around, experiment, take screenshots and write bug reports whenever I find something. Constant updates also mean that tuning and tweaking is an integral part of the experience.

The PvP aspect isn't bad in my view, because you hardly loose anything (besides your pride), and you don't have to invest too much. Just select a ship, game mode and off you go - then you can see how others play and challenge them. What's really fun is the flight model, which is less arcady and more intense, though still not very realistic.

 

[Helfix]

So basically what Helfix is saying is that less than 6% of people (40000/700000) have even loaded up that part of the game? Wow. That has to mean that people are just waiting on the full game release I guess. Maybe the word "Arena" is putting them off also as anyone who isn't in to pvp will probably avoid that like the plague due to it's (elite) pvp connotations.

Pretty much, not many people really like to participate on early access games. Some can't deal with constant bugs, crashes, wipes, and of course the worry that you might burn out early on and end up hating the game. I've seen quite a lot of people during the early Elite testing ending up burning themselves out and had to take huge breaks.

Also, when it comes to Star Citizen a lot of people are also put off by the way the alpha testing is done. CIG has basically put everything behind pay walls. You want those shields? You have to pay real money...oo shiny weapons...give us $15-20....ohhh I need better ship to stay competitive....drop $100+....No other game, early access or not has managed to monatize the development as much as CIG. For the past 8 months, you cannot earn UEC to purchase items, you have to drop real cash on it. Which is pretty disgusting. People give excuses such as "supporting the development" yet they miss the part that people already paid for the game and those who are playing AC are there to test and yet there is a giant pay wall to participate in the testing.

When Chris Roberts for instance gave his first response, he came off rather defensive and saying "they were doing the REC out of the goodness of their hearts" and how its costing them development money and etc. Yet we had this very same discussion back when the VD store was first introduced, hell, he addressed it in his $17 million Chairman letter stating that the VD store is not Pay2Win/Cash shop, but that is exactly what it has been for the past 8 months. Even in that letter he re-affirmed Ben's statement that they will work on a way for people to earn UEC to buy equipment/ships for testing in AC....yet what he stated yesterday is completely opposite of that. Then in his second post he defended REC stating how it's not freemium or Korean grinding like we were all saying, but it is Korean style grinding, at least with the current proposed system. There are plenty of games out there with a similar system such as APB, and people are forced to buy weapons to stay competitive because the grind is harsh. So there is quite a bit of disconnect with Chris Roberts and a lot of the community.

I'm just kind of shocked to be honest that CIG was going to continue to have the Alpha behind a pay wall which is disgusting but hey, he did state "by the time development is done this will be a $100 million game"...yet he asked for $23 million to make the game with all the current features *rolls eyes*....

Anyway I'm being too negative, a lot of people have given CIG some really good feedback on how to improve the REC system, hopefully they listen to the backers.

 

[Auditore]

Pretty much, not many people really like to participate on early access games. Some can't deal with constant bugs, crashes, wipes, and of course the worry that you might burn out early on and end up hating the game. I've seen quite a lot of people during the early Elite testing ending up burning themselves out and had to take huge breaks.

Also, when it comes to Star Citizen a lot of people are also put off by the way the alpha testing is done. CIG has basically put everything behind pay walls. You want those shields? You have to pay real money...oo shiny weapons...give us $15-20....ohhh I need better ship to stay competitive....drop $100+....No other game, early access or not has managed to monatize the development as much as CIG. For the past 8 months, you cannot earn UEC to purchase items, you have to drop real cash on it. Which is pretty disgusting. People give excuses such as "supporting the development" yet they miss the part that people already paid for the game and those who are playing AC are there to test and yet there is a giant pay wall to participate in the testing.

When Chris Roberts for instance gave his first response, he came off rather defensive and saying "they were doing the REC out of the goodness of their hearts" and how its costing them development money and etc. Yet we had this very same discussion back when the VD store was first introduced, hell, he addressed it in his $17 million Chairman letter stating that the VD store is not Pay2Win/Cash shop, but that is exactly what it has been for the past 8 months. Even in that letter he re-affirmed Ben's statement that they will work on a way for people to earn UEC to buy equipment/ships for testing in AC....yet what he stated yesterday is completely opposite of that. Then in his second post he defended REC stating how it's not freemium or Korean grinding like we were all saying, but it is Korean style grinding, at least with the current proposed system. There are plenty of games out there with a similar system such as APB, and people are forced to buy weapons to stay competitive because the grind is harsh. So there is quite a bit of disconnect with Chris Roberts and a lot of the community.

I'm just kind of shocked to be honest that CIG was going to continue to have the Alpha behind a pay wall which is disgusting but hey, he did state "by the time development is done this will be a $100 million game"...yet he asked for $23 million to make the game with all the current features *rolls eyes*....

Anyway I'm being too negative, a lot of people have given CIG some really good feedback on how to improve the REC system, hopefully they listen to the backers.

Nobody is forced to buy anything to stay competitive because there is no real game to be competitive in yet. Nor is there anything to win for it to be Pay2Win either.Not saying that I agree with the way they had the whole thing set up so far when it comes to testing (which is one of the reasons I don't really play AC much right now) but I don't see anything disgusting about it. You can simply choose not to spend any more than you would already have spent otherwise. That's what I did. Might suck for them if less people test but on the other hand if they get extra funding out of it from those willing to pay, more power to them. I would also prefer everything was freely available for testing purposes but we'll have to see how the REC system ends up I guess.

 

[Viking]

The REC system sounds great to me. I won't use it personally, but I can see it could be useful for many people to rent ships and equipment for 10% of the value with earned credits. The system looks fair. It'll make more people able to play AC and try out different hardware.

 

[Zelos1983]

I'm just kind of shocked to be honest that CIG was going to continue to have the Alpha behind a pay wall which is disgusting but hey, he did state "by the time development is done this will be a $100 million game"...yet he asked for $23 million to make the game with all the current features *rolls eyes*....

I don't see that alpha is behind a "paywall". I can access it just fine without spending any extra money. So that certainly isn't true.
Further, giving the current level of funding, it's not unreasonable to assume 100M$ will be reached by the time the game is released. As I pointed out, true R&D is not cheap, and the industry has to overcome a 10 year technology gap.

I also don't see any "Pay2Win", as the game isn't released yet. Therefore you cannot "win". You can do testing and file bug reports.

 

[CMDR Crumpeteer]

I don't see that alpha is behind a "paywall". I can access it just fine without spending any extra money. So that certainly isn't true.
Further, giving the current level of funding, it's not unreasonable to assume 100M$ will be reached by the time the game is released. As I pointed out, true R&D is not cheap, and the industry has to overcome a 10 year technology gap.

I also don't see any "Pay2Win", as the game isn't released yet. Therefore you cannot "win". You can do testing and file bug reports.

Not the game itself, but the vast majority of the content within the alpha. I'm pretty sure that when pledges became available for "alpha access", people had no idea that it would actually be only "limited alpha access with extra paywalls for content".

Also, saying it isn't a game so you cannot win is an absurd argument. Of course you can "win". There is an arena with a scoreboard and leaderboards, with a notice telling you when you win a match. "Alpha" doesn't change the fact that people ARE competing and are more than willing to pay for an advantage, even if it's only until release.