Which part of my sentiment are you not agreeing with? The points you mention seems to me to support my criticism of an unrealistic economy. I agree with your points actually. These issues stem from FD being the supreme leader of the universal economy. When there is no real economy in place FD needs to control all aspects of it and we can't reasonable expect them to control the economy in a perfect way such that the results are what you would realistically expect.
True economy: Will it ever come?
- Thread starter Mikkel Toxwenius
- Start date
Which part of my sentiment are you not agreeing with? The points you mention seems to me to support my criticism of an unrealistic economy. I agree with your points actually. These issues stem from FD being the supreme leader of the universal economy. When there is no real economy in place FD needs to control all aspects of it and we can't reasonable expect them to control the economy in a perfect way such that the results are what you would realistically expect.
There will never be a true economy in Elite because nothing is produced. There are no consequences for trading, no consumption of resources in-game that has any effect. Simple buy and sell mechanics don't create an economy. There was a superb blog post "review" on ED last month which highlighted this perfectly. For example, the whole Seeking Luxuries debate; being able to transport Enhancers en masse to these traders who seem to have an infinite cargo hold...
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Which is a very sad situation. Implementing this into the background simulation is quite a bit of work and may last some time. But I would really like to see that those NPCs are carrying good in and out stations
that will have impact to the market. Clearly you cannot give a full picture in 5billion people system but there will be dynamic in the marked as the traffic raises or lowers.
Regards,
Miklos
Something that jars me in the game is the sheer number of stations. There is no valid economic reason for having so many of them. It beggars belief! If space travel is so quick, and simple, and cheap, there's no reason why every hunk of rock should have a man-made structure around it!
But, then, I also think the volume of space that humanity has colonised is unrealistic. And unnecessary. It hasn't been thought through very well.
Oh, in response to the original question, because of reasons like these...no.
But, then, I also think the volume of space that humanity has colonised is unrealistic. And unnecessary. It hasn't been thought through very well.
Oh, in response to the original question, because of reasons like these...no.
Right now, the economy here is about as real as the one in Freelancer was, just with tiny arbitrary price fluctuations instead of interesting, dangerous routes.
The fact that FD feels the need to put very strict limits on price fluctuation feels like they don't actually want anything to be dynamic. Not the economy, and certainly not the expansion of the 3 major factions.
And that makes me sad.
The fact that FD feels the need to put very strict limits on price fluctuation feels like they don't actually want anything to be dynamic. Not the economy, and certainly not the expansion of the 3 major factions.
And that makes me sad.
Sorry, I was unclear. I think that the artificial constraint of pricing is a good thing in order to limit the potential variations in pricing across the game environment. Dynamic & chaotic systems can quickly run out of control without intervention and the game economy is too important to leave to chance / whims of the player base.
Wherever there are resources there is profit to be made, and in a galaxy largely controlled by a corporate oligarchy and a feudal empire I'd imagine plenty of people would look to having more then they have. Also, why not be a king, even if your kingdom is an insignificant outpost somewhere in the dark of space. "Better to reign in Hell then be a servant in Heaven".
Imagine how vast the "New World" seemed to the explorers. Massive empty continents (bar some annoying people who already lived there, but when has that ever stopped Progress). And yet how long did it take to fill those continents with new cultures, cities and countries?
It takes us 12 years to add a new billion people to the total count. Imagine how fast we'd multiply if we had access to unlimited space/resources/medicine/technology? Cockroaches would have nothing on us.
EDIT: ontopic: I'm hoping that sometime after 1.2 patch FDev will have finished implementing bare minimum of all the features that ED should've launched with. I'm hoping that after that they'll focus on improving the systems to bring them more in line with DDF proposals and original vision.
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The price fluctations are _not_ arbitrary. While system state mechanics may still be a murky black box, the trading mechanics are relatively simple and straightforward (except where they intersect with state mechanics, more on that further below).
In a nutshell:
A. Each system has a population and major economies, which are more or less a sum of the individual populations/economies of the stations within that system.
B. The number of stations, the factions in control of each station, the population of each station, and the essential economy type are essentially random. The procedural rules for the populated portion of the galaxy effectively just roll some dice for each system/station, based on procedural algorithms and a seed value. To us as observers, any given station is random, but over all the thousands of stations and systems there is a pattern of distribution.
C. So when you get done with step B and any given station is first instantiated, it has some rules and parameters that are fixed. Namely: the specific core commodities that it supplies, the specific core commodities that it demands, and some baseline quantities for each. Also in here are threshold values for each commodity above/below which the demand/supply price changes, and modifier values that affect the price elasticity of each commodity as they pass beyond thresholds. In other words, there are simple and basic microeconomic demand curves and elasiticities in play at all times, and these do not change once intantiated.
D. Item C the core of the "background simulation". It's actually a _static_ set of demand curves and elasticities. But then the game adds "NPC flavor" to _illustrate_ or _animate_ these curves and elasticities. We see more NPC ships approaching and leaving stations, at a higher frequency, in stations with high populations and high quantities of supply and demand. We also see visible "trade route data" in the galaxy map that depicts the type of commodities that would be logically traded between any two systems (based on the static curves and elasticities). We see lists of stations exported to and imported from based on the same static curves and elasiticities.
E. What _does_ change is the activity of players. If a station supplies Beryillium at a certain static supply quantity and price, this will not change until players show up. When players start using up that supply, the number does in fact go down and the price does in fact respond according to the static price elasticity for that station. However, at the same time that players are removing supply from the station, the background simulation is also replacing the supply at a constant interval and rate. The interval seems to be fixed (and short, roughly every 30 minutes), but the _amount_ of the resupply each "tick" is based on other attributes of the system/station. So if PLAYERS are taking out less supply over time than the refresh tick is replacing, it will seem like the supply quantity never changes. Or the supply may drop noticeably when players are present for a few hours, but then go right back to its normal static quantity after the players leave and the resupply tick eventually "refills the bucket".
F. On the demand side, the resupply tick is more like a "redemand tick". The notions of price elasticity and demand curve do still apply, just in reverse. The demand quantity will in fact go down from its static baseline if enough players are hauling in lots of that commodity. And the price elasticity kicks in and starts lowering the amount that the station is willing to pay for that commodity. If players stop bringing in that commodity for a while, the "redemand tick" will eventually bring the demand back up to its static threshold.
Now, where this all breaks down is where the basic commodity mechanics described above intersect with the state mechanics. Certain system states can temporarily increase or reduce demand/supply of commodities associated with that state. I'm certain the elasitcity curves also change. IMO this interaction of system/station states on the normal microeconomic supply/demand fluctuation is why many players think "its just arbitrary".
Not enough is known yet about the state mechanics (Box. Too. Black.) for me to explain exactly how this affects the more volatile and weird commodity behavior, but clearly Imperial Slaves, Gold, some weapon types, and Superconductors stand out as the most noticeable examples of this interplay. For this reason, I never bother finding and evaluating trade routes on the basis of those four commodity types in particular.
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Funny I was just think about the colonisation of space about 10 minutes ago and then read this post. Space travel is ridiculously quick and cheap and there's no way the colonised area would be so small unless space travel started really recently. Being that it is so cheap, it would mean that humanity now has a vast abundance of resources to get at from every planet and asteroid out there which would explain the abundance of space stations - when you have titanium literally coming out of your ears why not just build, build, build!?? lol
and where trade exist on eve besides the player crafting and jita auction house?
I know that prices going up/down isn't arbitrary and actually kind of works in a way that could make sense. What I meant was the limits for price fluctuation are completely arbitrary, and that's the problem.
Because it's not necessary! If you can get from A to C in the blink of an eye, why stop off at B? There would be relatively few, HUGELY populated systems. There might be abundant resources, but the universe is limited by how quickly they can be extracted.
Price elasticity has no limits. It's basic microeconomics. Here's a good place to start if this is unfamiliar territory:
https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/microeconomics/elasticity-tutorial
In E|D there's an arbitrary limit on how cheap or expensive goods can become, set by FDev. Beryllium at 10 supply will always have the same price, no matter where you are.
Not quite. Beryllium at low supply will broadly have the same price everywhere. I have recorded instances of stations with low demand counts but medium prices - so there is scope for more variation.
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But that's also what makes me think the system isn't quite right.
Ah, I see what you were trying to say.
Even in this respect, I'm guessing that the boundary prices are still affected by the same factors as everything else: population size, economy type, variance allowed by the procedural algorithms, etc. But once the station is instantiated, the boundary prices are _static_ for that station.
The main problem is that everybody trades the same stuff, because there is no balance in the risk/reward department
Because there is no balance in the risk/reward department, the trading mechanisms are severly restricted.
It's a vicious circle created by FD
The different ships serve no purpose other then do the same stuff on a bigger scale...
Transporting high valuable stuff... should mean high risk ... should mean special class of trading ship
f.e. Gold -> Asp iwould be a good trading ship because it can protect the cargo
Grain/food -> Type 9 = big trucks with low security
But in order for this to happen the prices/capabilities of the ships need a serious overhaul...
Only then people can specialize in different trading commodities and demand and supply could be more balanced...
FD went just for the simple solution: Bigger ship -> carry more (without adding any real downsides)
and this is why there is no purpose for a trader to ship grain and cheaper commodities.
If you would see a spreadsheet with the types and amounts of products that are bought by CMDR, it would be obvious that again
any real consequences are lacking in relation to the choices you make.
You can do anything in 'Elite' ... but trading earns the most money.
You can trade anything... but trading 'Gold' earns the most money.
Sigh... and 'FD' wants that people immerse themselves in the game and use there imagination?
Because there is no balance in the risk/reward department, the trading mechanisms are severly restricted.
It's a vicious circle created by FD
The different ships serve no purpose other then do the same stuff on a bigger scale...
Transporting high valuable stuff... should mean high risk ... should mean special class of trading ship
f.e. Gold -> Asp iwould be a good trading ship because it can protect the cargo
Grain/food -> Type 9 = big trucks with low security
But in order for this to happen the prices/capabilities of the ships need a serious overhaul...
Only then people can specialize in different trading commodities and demand and supply could be more balanced...
FD went just for the simple solution: Bigger ship -> carry more (without adding any real downsides)
and this is why there is no purpose for a trader to ship grain and cheaper commodities.
If you would see a spreadsheet with the types and amounts of products that are bought by CMDR, it would be obvious that again
any real consequences are lacking in relation to the choices you make.
You can do anything in 'Elite' ... but trading earns the most money.
You can trade anything... but trading 'Gold' earns the most money.
Sigh... and 'FD' wants that people immerse themselves in the game and use there imagination?
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Fair enough.
But, for example, Yembo during the community goal had their demand for metals locked at what looks like the highest possible number. A station in a system near me with little player traffic buys Beryllium for the exact same price as Yembo did (until I do a few traderuns, then the price drops by 5 credits for a while). Over 200 lightyears away. Feels way too gamey for me.
Ahh yes, this bugs me a lot! Prices are far too close to the galactic average - but travelled a bit, the price of something in the UK or Europe is vastly different to the price or something in the US, Africa or Asia.
Part of it should be supply and demand, but sadly they also don't have meta levels in products (such as low/medium/high quality) which would add an extra level of detail to it. For example you might find one route is good but the products are of a lower quality. If you brought high quality items from further then they might pay over the odds for them.
But based on how it's currently implemented it's probably a step too far and would just add complexity.
InMemoriamSirocco
Banned
For me, it actually feels like how the economy should be in the game. If as of yet invisible bulk carriers are moving the really large quantities of cargo about and we commanders only do the small quantity trading anway, I just see no way how a few dozen T9s with maxed out cargo spaces should have any impact on the economy of a whole planet, let alone an entire star system.
A drop of 5 percent value actually sounds realistic for me for a change. When I tried doing commodity trading, on my first run I got 1300 cr per ton. On my second run 1100 cr and on my third run 900.
THAT is ridiculous.
I distinctly remember being excited about this game and playing FFE3D to pass the time until ED came out... and thinking that they would keep the galaxy consistent, I planned on getting to the secure core systems around Sol again and do my old and completely safe trade route... Fish from Ross 154 to Barnard's Star, Robotics and Computer parts from Barnard's Star to Ross 154.
Looking back now, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. There are no persistent trade routes any more... the only reliable trading is rare goods trading. People always say "you can make millions per hour with commodity trading once you get a bigger ship like the T6, T7 or T9". That may be. But you have to find a trade route first. I have read all the guides on this and invested hours upon hours into finding a sweet spot to start trading commodities. Nothing yet. The few times I actually found a couple of system between which I could make a decent profit, it decayed so quickly that it didn't even make up for the time spent searching for it.
I'm in a Clipper with 200 cargo space. The profits I can make with this in commodity trading are laughable.