The thing is, this just perpetuates the issue where instead of the weapons themselves, it is now the super-expensive ammo that is only really usable by someone who has a mountain of cash to burn.
Isnt it somehow lame that Multicannons are so much better than Railguns and Cannons?
- Thread starter Lazerus Artificial
- Start date
The thing is, this just perpetuates the issue where instead of the weapons themselves, it is now the super-expensive ammo that is only really usable by someone who has a mountain of cash to burn.
So yeah, and what was the price for that savlo?Put 8 railguns on an anaconda, then tell me how useless they are
A lot of things die in one hit
I guess a few seconds with Multicannons would do the same effect, just way cheaper.
You could still use the "good ammo" like currently, in PVP,
and you could buy some cheap ammo for PVE
isnt it currently like that? someone who has not enough money wont fight in pvp, he would have cheap weapons, energy or multicannons...while the guy with a lot of money has an Anaconda and nukes you with one salvo
I have been trying different load outs for my Python, given the changes in 1.1. I have found 3 large beams too restrictive against bigger targets as I'm constantly overheating and needing to cool down, even with an A class power plant and distributor. This left me with 2 medium MCs to shoot with and they're just too slow against anacondas.
I tried 2 fixed missiles and they're good but not so useful against medium and small targets. Plus, they're no good as a backup for when the beams are on cool down.
My other major concern was shield strength. Beams demand all four pips otherwise they're generally always overheating. I needed to be able to use two pips to weapons and four to systems when I was taking damage.
So I experimented with three large fixed pulse and two medium rails. My word, it's a huge difference! I never liked rails before but I've had a lot of practice with fixed weapons and found adapting to them easy. They are useful against any size ship but amazing against asps or larger. And 30 ammo is enough for a decent session. They only cost 200 per shot, which is nothing when you only need two or three shots against an anaconda. Against anything smaller, one double shot is enough because three large fixed pulse lasers do very quick and constant damage.
The biggest difference is the pulse lasers though. They do very good damage against shields and supplement rail damage nicely on the hull. But the main thing is, with two pips to weapons they can keep firing for longer than beams with four pips. And they can fire close to forever with four pips.
I love this setup. I just wish large rails existed. The choice for large hard points is far too limited.
I tried 2 fixed missiles and they're good but not so useful against medium and small targets. Plus, they're no good as a backup for when the beams are on cool down.
My other major concern was shield strength. Beams demand all four pips otherwise they're generally always overheating. I needed to be able to use two pips to weapons and four to systems when I was taking damage.
So I experimented with three large fixed pulse and two medium rails. My word, it's a huge difference! I never liked rails before but I've had a lot of practice with fixed weapons and found adapting to them easy. They are useful against any size ship but amazing against asps or larger. And 30 ammo is enough for a decent session. They only cost 200 per shot, which is nothing when you only need two or three shots against an anaconda. Against anything smaller, one double shot is enough because three large fixed pulse lasers do very quick and constant damage.
The biggest difference is the pulse lasers though. They do very good damage against shields and supplement rail damage nicely on the hull. But the main thing is, with two pips to weapons they can keep firing for longer than beams with four pips. And they can fire close to forever with four pips.
I love this setup. I just wish large rails existed. The choice for large hard points is far too limited.
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Yeah, but the idea was to break up this status quo where you use cheap weapons/ammo to earn money on NPCs (or become rich trading), then spend the money on an entirely different and more expensive PvP loadout.
Specifically, I want the very notion of a PvP loadout to die in a fire. Anything should be viable equally against players and NPCs, and by viable I also mean financially.
THAT would obviously the best case. Its just stupid that some weapons only real use is in PVP.
Just replaced my scatters for regular cannons, and so far I love the change. They are less reliant on positioning, perform better against smaller craft and have slightly more ammo. Not quite the infinite ammo from multicannons, but for me, it's an improvement.
Scatters can outdamage regular cannons, but you really have to get very close and get into a very specific angle towards the target to benefit from them and have a viable amount of pellets hit.
Scatters can outdamage regular cannons, but you really have to get very close and get into a very specific angle towards the target to benefit from them and have a viable amount of pellets hit.
to me it's quite ironic having found your post just now; only yesterday i finally switched from my age-old setup of (two class 2 pulse lasers and) two class 1 gimballed multi cannons on my cobra to two gimballed cannons, because the multis weren't doing enough damage, but the cannons (as far as i can tell from testing them last night) do. wow! they blew me (and my targets) away
maybe i was just lucky, but i finally feel like i can take on elite anacondas again (have to give it a try tonight
)
Please don't do this.....I can feel FD winding up the nerf bat as I type this. There is only ever one outcome, there will be no buff to anything else just a huge nerf for MCs if you carry on down this road....remember the Python RIP
My MC setup is the only viable one I have for hunting at nav beacons - i've tried beams and cannons - very limited against anything other than large ships, i've tried railguns but couldn't get used to them (just need more practice - but the limited ammo is crippling) I'm not even going to bother with the scatter cannon, just too limited in range to be of use. Missiles got nerfed and have a similar issue as cannons with the poor projectile speed.
That leaves MCs and the only real option - now I'd love there to be more credible options for projectiles but I can't see FD buffing anything else or making Cannons, rails, scatters or missiles more viable, I can only see them nerfing the MC in terms of cost and effectiveness and these kind of threads will ensure it happens.....please don't do it.
My MC setup is the only viable one I have for hunting at nav beacons - i've tried beams and cannons - very limited against anything other than large ships, i've tried railguns but couldn't get used to them (just need more practice - but the limited ammo is crippling) I'm not even going to bother with the scatter cannon, just too limited in range to be of use. Missiles got nerfed and have a similar issue as cannons with the poor projectile speed.
That leaves MCs and the only real option - now I'd love there to be more credible options for projectiles but I can't see FD buffing anything else or making Cannons, rails, scatters or missiles more viable, I can only see them nerfing the MC in terms of cost and effectiveness and these kind of threads will ensure it happens.....please don't do it.
sure, but doesnt it feel wrong, when there is that one viable setup?
either that means that MC is horribly OP, or everything else is UP, or just that no one really uses them because they are so expensive.
mentioned that on one of the first pages.to me it's quite ironic having found your post just now; only yesterday i finally switched from my age-old setup of (two class 2 pulse lasers and) two class 1 gimballed multi cannons on my cobra to two gimballed cannons, because the multis weren't doing enough damage, but the cannons (as far as i can tell from testing them last night) do. wow! they blew me (and my targets) away
maybe i was just lucky, but i finally feel like i can take on elite anacondas again (have to give it a try tonight
From the wiki alone, Cannons and Multicannons have similar damage values. Cannon just deal it with less shots (same Armor penetration and those things)
i think it was like 8 Gatling bullets per second deal 3 dps, while 0.5 Cannon shells per second deal also 3 dps. so 16 Gatling bullets = 1 Cannon shot.
Problem here...the cost. if the value is correct, one G.Bullet costs 1c, while one C.Shell costs 200. So for the damage that one C.Shell deals in one shot for 200c, i can deal the same with 16 G.Bullets for 16c right? That means for the same price i could fire 12.5 times as many bullets from the gatling, dealing a lot more damage - meaning that you could fight a lot longer before reloading.
also one sentence i just posted in a huge feedback/suggestion topic
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I suspect many of the posters here usually engage at far closer ranges then I do - I fly fast ships and generally try to stay 2-3km from my target, so find railguns and lasers are infinitely more potent then multicannon and cannon.
All weapons are situational
Would I rather have multicannon or cannon in my Viper to take on an Anaconda? Cannon every time.
Would I rather have multicannon or cannon in my Viper to take on another Viper? Multicannon every time.
I fight a lot more Vipers then Anacondas.
It's not that the multicannon are better, it's that they are more commonly the right tool for the job.
All weapons are situational
Would I rather have multicannon or cannon in my Viper to take on an Anaconda? Cannon every time.
Would I rather have multicannon or cannon in my Viper to take on another Viper? Multicannon every time.
I fight a lot more Vipers then Anacondas.
It's not that the multicannon are better, it's that they are more commonly the right tool for the job.
Go ahead and ruin a good thing. I really like my mc's when something is good, the intelligent thing to do is keep it quiet.
thats true, and thats also not the problem. the weapons themself are nice, they are just not viable.
just because you like long range or strong hitter more than closerange rapidfire means that you need to spend a lot more money in ammo.
Like i mentioned above, a cannon is not that lng range viable, its like a multicannon that hits stronger but slower right?
still it costs 12.5 times as much to deal the same damage with them (theoretical)
actually thats a very stupid way. it will lead to a game where one weapon can be used and the rest is too situational or too expensive.
Too broken.
like a Call of Duty game with Noobtubes - or a better comparison: Spray and Pray weapons. No skill needed for a high reward.
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Rail guns would be far more useful if it were easier to divert power from one weapon to another (toggle power to the rail and swap it with something else). That would allow for some surprisingly sophisticated, expensive and deadly small ship builds for instance. Having to about with the Modules menu during a combat situation just isn't going to happen though.
hm... i'm terrible at maths but i actually checked and calculated the cost for my little cannon adventure yesterday. either i misread something (which is possible, i admit), but it seemed more like 20cr per cannon shell, not 200. i'll check again tonight.
that would be nice, thanks for that.
from the video i watched, he spend 9432c for 35 shots (*6 cannons), so around 45c per shell.
railgun was at 35350c for 20 shots (*6 cannons) so 295 per shot.
so ~40c per shot seems ok for its damage, absolutely. its still a lot, but its a fair price that one can afford.
~300c for a railgun shell on the other hand...nope
dunno, thats why i always mention that those values are from the wiki.
values from the video for anaconda kills:
Multicannons: 46s killtime - 2324c ammo for a lot of shots (killed with 18% hull left)
Cannon: 108s killtime - 9432c ammo for 210 shells (35*6) (killed with 12% hull left)
Railgun: 60s killtime - 35350c ammo for 120 shells (20*6) (killed with 38% hull left)
Fragment: 41s killtime - 9822c ammo for 96 shots (16*6) (killed with 17% hull left)
Dumbfire: 21s killtime - 46000c ammo for 102 rockets (17*6) (killed with 0% hull left)
also that would be awesome.
divert power to a different group would be enough i guess, so like 20% for your multicannons on your primary fire and 80% to the railguns on your secondary.
and in another firegroup you could set it completely different again. more power to lasers, less to missiles or so.
(from the theoretical view of course, dont know if its viable to have so many different weapons^^)
In general, a way to adjust the energy more precisely would be nice
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BlackReign
Banned
Too bad we don't have a "hide thread from FD" feature. The longer this thread goes, the more likely the multicannon nerf. FD's track record has proven this.
My main gripe towards the low ammo for cannons and rail guns is a mixture between income scaling and "fun rationing".
The only career that scales in income as you go up in ships is trading.
Any combat profession (the fun professions) has ammo and damage costs that increase with ship and weapon size but income stays the same (fighting the same ships).
Since the heat changes in 1.1 you can't run an all laser set up any more so your fun factor is also decreased by having to spend more time in supercruise to go back and rearm.
It seems that if you want to have fun you have to grind at some point. If you want a big ship with projectile weapons you need to grind the ass out of trading to pay for it with your own time. If you want a small ship with projectile weapons your ammo costs aren't going to be covered by your income and you have the added punishment of spending more time in supercruise to rearm.
FD need to look at the fun vs grind factor for combat professions instead of arbitrarily nerfing mechanics to balance the game.
There's a big group of hackers right now grinding combat zones by leaving their pcs on all night with their ship in a combat zone auto killing ships with turrets. They have infinite ammo, fuel and shield hacks and in the event of a death they have a built in logoff hack as well so they don't lose their earnings.
If the income scaled for professions other than trading people wouldn't be hacking and people would be having more fun without having to resort to a profession they aren't interested in to enjoy the game they bought.
The only career that scales in income as you go up in ships is trading.
Any combat profession (the fun professions) has ammo and damage costs that increase with ship and weapon size but income stays the same (fighting the same ships).
Since the heat changes in 1.1 you can't run an all laser set up any more so your fun factor is also decreased by having to spend more time in supercruise to go back and rearm.
It seems that if you want to have fun you have to grind at some point. If you want a big ship with projectile weapons you need to grind the ass out of trading to pay for it with your own time. If you want a small ship with projectile weapons your ammo costs aren't going to be covered by your income and you have the added punishment of spending more time in supercruise to rearm.
FD need to look at the fun vs grind factor for combat professions instead of arbitrarily nerfing mechanics to balance the game.
There's a big group of hackers right now grinding combat zones by leaving their pcs on all night with their ship in a combat zone auto killing ships with turrets. They have infinite ammo, fuel and shield hacks and in the event of a death they have a built in logoff hack as well so they don't lose their earnings.
If the income scaled for professions other than trading people wouldn't be hacking and people would be having more fun without having to resort to a profession they aren't interested in to enjoy the game they bought.
Nah, they're doing that combat zone grinding because they can hack it and probably won't get detected (so quickly). If they could hack "trading" as easily, they would do that as well. Or mining.
Cannons are definitely jacked. Projectiles fired from most modern cannons have a very high velocity, and not the "I've thrown a football to a guy 60 yards down the field" type velocity we are currently stuck with. That needs to be fixed ASAP.
Also, we need to have different projectile types to boot. HE, HEAT style, etc....