Open letter to Devs, Why I am now combat logging and what to do with this pirate.

[Sandmann]

That really means getting rid of the entire bounty concept Tying it to a ship will likely allow to clear it by just jumping to another ship one way or another. I would say it is likely impossible to make bounty concept compatible to PvP in some coherent way.

Yeah tieing it to a ship is a simple solution but wouldn't work - too easy to get around.

There's a couple of ways that jump out to me of making bounties compatible with PvP... arenas & death matches are one, but of course they are artificial and don't allow for free form piracy, and if people really wanted them PvP groups would be much more popular. Another is "consensual" PvP with a player set flag that other players could see. It's been mentioned before and many have argued against it on the grounds of "if you are in open I should be able to shoot you". If it didn't stop people from shooting you but simply didn't give you a bounty for attacking those with it set but still gave you a bounty for those without it, that might be more palatable.

 

[kapitankev]

I haven't read the entire thread. 11 pages? But I have to say that normally I think combat logging is wrong. In this case however, I do NOT think it is wrong. He is not logging to avoid being killed. He is not logging to avoid paying a pirate. He is logging to prevent this person from profiting when he can't profit himself as a bounty hunter against this target. Why should the pirate profit when there is no chance for a bounty hunter to profit off of him?

So, wrong to combat log, sure. But it's also just as wrong for this person to fly around with a clean tag when

he is clearly a pirate. 2 wrongs don't make a right? Maybe not, but there are times when 2 wrongs make a justice.

Eh? it's wrong to combat log except when its right? wiping your bounty is withing the rules of the game right now...as is submitting to interdiction to get a quick recharge. combat logging is a blatant cheat, you may as well hack yourself infinite shields.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

So, the OP is using an exploit that is stickied at the top of these very forums, and that exploit has been openly condemned by FDev. Repeatedly.

What we have then, is an exploiter confessing to using an exploit and promising to continue exploiting in open.

Can a dev or GM ban him from open? He's been kind enough to provide his commander name in his sig, and I'm sure if Fdev has been tracking combat logs (as they claim), they can corroborate that he has in fact been combat logging.
Seems like an open and shut case. Ban the OP, we certainly don't need MORE exploiters in open play.

 

[kapitankev]

yep, I sympathise with his complaint but there's no excuse.

 

[KellyR]

Eh? it's wrong to combat log except when its right? wiping your bounty is withing the rules of the game right now...as is submitting to interdiction to get a quick recharge. combat logging is a blatant cheat, you may as well hack yourself infinite shields.

So it's right to be able to pirate and then fly with a clean tag? How about if I go down and rob a bank and then pay $10,000 to the authorities? Then I can walk around with a clean record. Wrong!!!

 

[kapitankev]

That's not what I said.....read again...slower.

 

[Sandmann]

So don't kill the ships, there is a difference between pirating a few tons of cargo and killing a trader just for the hell of it. If it's murder then Yes big fine and payment of the value of the destroyed ship because your actions may have just ended the career of the trader by murdering him/her

Yes.. exactly what I meant by "intelligent piracy" rather than "blow them up and see what falls out". This would require better systems to allow it though. Some sort of system that allowed pirates to "hack" their target's ship, with an opposing system that allowed targets to defend themselves, giving a minigame in a similar way to the interdiction one perhaps? That'd satisfy "gentleman pirates", but.it won't slake the bloodlust of the "psychopath pirate".

 

[mapesdhs]

The mention of game mechanics about pirates had me wondering, what happens if a pirate with a bounty kills another
pirate with a bounty in ED? In the real world, I doubt criminals can receive rewards in such a manner, as the priority
of the police would be to arrest them for their unprosecuted misdeeds, despite their having done some kind of good
deed which carries a reward. Just curious if the nature of bounty payments is so automatic that it doesn't take into
account the legal/rep status of the claimant. Another layer to ponder...

Personally I don't think murder in the game should be clearable via simple payments at all (I have no problem with the
social ethics in ED being different to real life, but this particular one seems a bit too off); some other mechanism,
sure, but not simply via monetary means, and even if the 'wanted' status has been cleared somehow, the fact that
someone has done such a thing shouldn't be erased completely, but it could be done in a manner that benefits them
if they choose to play as a pirate, namely a rep that has a +ve effect when they visit anarchy systems (more
welcoming when among like-minded individuals). It wouldn't stop them visiting Fed/etc., worlds, but they would be
less trusted when doing so, in whatever way (higher commodity/repair costs, etc.) Afterall, the game itself keeps
a permanent record of all such stats, so the data required to implement something more involved is already available.
Thus, instead of a single bad-to-good spectrum, it would be possible to have a permanent past reputation at the same
time as having a variable current bounty/wanted status. This is certainly much more like real life, ie. a criminal record.
An ex-con who's served time isn't a wanted person anymore, but they have a past rep which means they're less trusted
by society (eg. finding higher-paying work isn't impossible, but certainly much more difficult), though at the same time
that rep can I expect be a +ve badge if they choose to continue being part of the criminal classes.

As may have said, some rebalancing to make each style of play rewarding in its own right does seem necessary. The
above just refers to pirates, but I agree with OP's stance that BH needs its own rewards in relevant ways; perhaps
fixing how priacy functions would automatically help fix how BH works aswell.

Ian.

 

[Sandmann]

now I know a lot of traders made this same argument but the difference is...trading is hugely profitable.

And what happened? All the traders stopped having fun coz the pirates weren't controlled and tbey disappeared from the open game, and the pirates are now having less fun and the traders are still making a profit. The pirates got exactly what they feared because they wouldn't tolerate a few restrictions. *shrug*

 

[kapitankev]

killing your target isn't always the sign of a psycho...here's the logic....


I interdict you, I tell you to stop engines or I'll blow you up
You run....because A.you think I'm joking or B. You think you can get away.
I need to convince you to stop....using my multicannons....I take you down to 10%...still not stopping...5%....still running....

What's a pirate to do? Am I to let you make it to dock to cash in your 1mil in profit and pay off a relatively small amount in repairs? Or do I teach you a lesson you'll remember next time?

Dropping 5 barrels is always gonna be less than repairs or rebuy. I will say, I always communicate and give multiple chances for them to stop....I hold fire to give em a chance often spread over multiple interdictions. Interdicting someone and killing without saying a word is a bit rude and also an unproductive method of piracy.

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And what happened? All the traders stopped having fun coz the pirates weren't controlled and tbey disappeared from the open game, and the pirates are now having less fun and the traders are still making a profit. The pirates got exactly what they feared because they wouldn't tolerate a few restrictions. *shrug*

There's still plenty of traders, seems like a lot of them are in asps and cobras these days.

 

[Hump Johnson]

killing your target isn't always the sign of a psycho...here's the logic....


I interdict you, I tell you to stop engines or I'll blow you up
You run....because A.you think I'm joking or B. You think you can get away.
I need to convince you to stop....using my multicannons....I take you down to 10%...still not stopping...5%....still running....

What's a pirate to do? Am I to let you make it to dock to cash in your 1mil in profit and pay off a relatively small amount in repairs? Or do I teach you a lesson you'll remember next time?

Dropping 5 barrels is always gonna be less than repairs or rebuy. I will say, I always communicate and give multiple chances for them to stop....I hold fire to give em a chance often spread over multiple interdictions. Interdicting someone and killing without saying a word is a bit rude and also an unproductive method of piracy.

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There's still plenty of traders, seems like a lot of them are in asps and cobras these days.

you know what if my shields were down to 5-10% I would be damn well dropping some cargo.

 

[Jockey79]

killing your target isn't always the sign of a psycho...here's the logic....


I interdict you, I tell you to stop engines or I'll blow you up
You run....because A.you think I'm joking or B. You think you can get away.
I need to convince you to stop....using my multicannons....I take you down to 10%...still not stopping...5%....still running....

What's a pirate to do? Am I to let you make it to dock to cash in your 1mil in profit and pay off a relatively small amount in repairs? Or do I teach you a lesson you'll remember next time?

Dropping 5 barrels is always gonna be less than repairs or rebuy. I will say, I always communicate and give multiple chances for them to stop....I hold fire to give em a chance often spread over multiple interdictions. Interdicting someone and killing without saying a word is a bit rude and also an unproductive method of piracy.

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There's still plenty of traders, seems like a lot of them are in asps and cobras these days.

All the Type 7 and 9 traders went to Mobius

 

[kapitankev]

you know what if my shields were down to 5-10% I would be damn well dropping some cargo.

Heh, I'm talking about hull strength...you'd be surprised at how many people just WILL NOT STOP.

 

[Katkon]

So, the OP is using an exploit that is stickied at the top of these very forums, and that exploit has been openly condemned by FDev. Repeatedly.

What we have then, is an exploiter confessing to using an exploit and promising to continue exploiting in open.

Can a dev or GM ban him from open? He's been kind enough to provide his commander name in his sig, and I'm sure if Fdev has been tracking combat logs (as they claim), they can corroborate that he has in fact been combat logging.
Seems like an open and shut case. Ban the OP, we certainly don't need MORE exploiters in open play.

If they ban him they should go ahead and ban you too. Why? Combat logging is technically supported but generally frowned upon as unsporting, so FD will eventually change it. You actively participated in station griefing, and posted about your exploits on the forum, stating that because it was technically supported in-game, it should be allowed. FD clearly thought otherwise and changed game design.

As it stands, neither of you will be banned, though I'd argue that your in-game behaviour is 1000 times worse, as you were trying to inflict pain and suffering unto others, while the OP was trying to defend himself/escape from a known pirate who apparently doesn't like to fly around with a wanted tag. Yes, the game supports the pirate being able to wash his record clean at the push of a button. But the game also supports combat logging and all sorts of douchebagery. You will both live to fight another day.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Station griefing is supported. If you want to shoot at people in stations in 1.2 that is totally allowed. Combat logging is not. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. In the end the entire OP can be summarised as 'got pirated, didn't like it, combat-logged'. For shame...

 

[SiriusSeven]

I've read the post. I sympathize with the OP. But,

Let's pretend that the bounty thing is an exploit and not just a hopelessly unbalanced mechanic (wishful thinking?)

What we're left with is 2 people exploiting the game in Open instead of 1.

I can't support this.

 

[Klab]

OP does have a valid point. You either play good guy or play bad guy. You shouldn't be able to appear as a 'clean good guy' if you are pirating or killing other players. As it stands now, the ability to instantly pay off your bounty leaves no room for professional bounty hunters to operate, as 90% of players don't have the cahoonahs to keep their wanted status and simply pay it off as soon as they can.
Needs looking at imo.

 

[Sandmann]

killing your target isn't always the sign of a psycho...here's the logic....

No argument there... wasn't trying to say that every pirate who ever killed a ship was a psycho. Having perma-bounties for murder would discourage it, but there will still be times when it's the only way, there will be times when a pirate only intends to disable and a.ship blows up, and some ppl really do just play psychos.

There's still plenty of traders, seems like a lot of them are in asps and cobras these days.

Can you blame them? Trading in a hauler or adder in open is a death sentence.

 

[Hump Johnson]

maybe all these bounty hunters That have no bounties to pursue because of the pirates clearing their fines quick sharp (and I can see OPs point ) should take up escort duties instead and be paid good fees by the traders they are escorting, I don't know if this is feasible with the game as it stands now though.

I would pay a BH in a viper to cover my ass.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

If they ban him they should go ahead and ban you too. Why? Combat logging is technically supported but generally frowned upon as unsporting, so FD will eventually change it. You actively participated in station griefing, and posted about your exploits on the forum, stating that because it was technically supported in-game, it should be allowed. FD clearly thought otherwise and changed game design.

As it stands, neither of you will be banned, though I'd argue that your in-game behaviour is 1000 times worse, as you were trying to inflict pain and suffering unto others, while the OP was trying to defend himself/escape from a known pirate who apparently doesn't like to fly around with a wanted tag. Yes, the game supports the pirate being able to wash his record clean at the push of a button. But the game also supports combat logging and all sorts of douchebagery. You will both live to fight another day.

Find me a single post where FDev have said murder in stations is forbidden. Just one post that specifically mentions murder in stations.

In fact, FDev have said that murder is a perfectly valid gameplay choice. (source)
Combat logging is an exploit. A bannable exploit that is being tracked by FDev. (source)

The OP commited actions explicitly forbidden by FDev. Actions that are deemed a bannable exploit. And OP plans to continue exploiting. All Exploiters should be banned.

Station griefing is supported. If you want to shoot at people in stations in 1.2 that is totally allowed. Combat logging is not. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. In the end the entire OP can be summarised as 'got pirated, didn't like it, combat-logged'. For shame...

This exactly. Not liking the rules is not an excuse for exploiting.