The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

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Yup. It's Freelancer 2 essentially. And where are all the people boldly proclaiming that ED's flight model was sluggish, where are the yaw-debaters, where are the people parroting CIG's claims about just how complex the flight model is (remember, if it doesn't work you're just holding it wrong) and that it's just feeling so bad because it is really that good. Gone. They're probably playing GTA V now.

See, this is what I do not get, CIG has basically negated the entire flight model and "complexity" by allowing that freelancer/war thunder style mode. Nobody will use hotas/joysticks/gamepads competitively in the game when they are outclassed by mouse. Hell, why spend all that time creating a realistic flight model when you are going to negate it with simple arcade controls. Makes no sense.

Also, the thrusters are still far over powered for the sizes they are, especially given the data scrapes people have been doing. Not to mention even proper mass has not been introduced into the game.
 
Wow that is a real damn shame, so now we are stuck with a Freelancer/War Thunder in space clone? :-(......I really hoped that they would get away from the FPS feel and AIM centered model to one where flight is more important and you can actually use tactics and manuvering that mattered.

Just wow, I really hope this is not true....but then again, given that SQ 42 will launch in < 6-7 months its shocking.

No this is much worst,at least with Freelancer&War Thunder you know where you stand for,they are both(in core,WT-Arcade mode not Sim) 3rd Pearson View games from other side SC are not allowing you to play in 3rd view which making it arcade game with arcade controls& feeling to play as a sim in First person view???
 
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For those who are wondering about the flight model, it's pretty much done and you shouldn't expect much else to change at the single fighter experience.

https://i.imgur.com/dVPThfqm.png


Hm..I thought that CIG were telling us some months ago that maneuvering thruster output and acceleration was too high (partly to account for some problems in the IFCS), and that would change in the future. It seems now that the current rates may be what CIG wanted from the start.

Not happy about this, I'll live with it though. I was really hoping for a system where acceleration and throttle control mattered a little more. I think that we will at least get that with the bigger ships though..C:

Only possible upside I can really see here, is that there is arguably a number of different systems that go in to the flying experience of SC, some of which may or may not be considered part of the FM depending upon who you talk to.

For instance you can divide space flight in SC as it is currently into 3 layers:

1. The underlying newtonian physics engine.
2. The IFCS.
3. The number/size/placement of thrusters, and mass/moment of inertia of a ship.

Some might say that all of these three in combination is the flight model, whilst others might say that it is only 1. that is the flight model whilst 2. and 3. are separate systems which interact with the flight model, to give the end result as we see it now.

Hopefully when Calix Reneau says that the flight model is finished, he is primarily referring to just 1., since 2. and especially 3. could still use a lot of balancing.
 
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Only possible upside I can really see here, is that there is arguably a number of different systems that go in to the flying experience of SC, some of which may or may not be considered part of the FM depending upon who you talk to.

For instance you can divide space flight in SC as it is currently into 3 layers:

1. The underlying newtonian physics engine.
2. The IFCS.
3. The number/size/placement of thrusters, and mass/moment of inertia of a ship.

Some might say that all of these three in combination is the flight model, whilst others might say that it is only 1. that is the flight model whilst 2. and 3. are separate systems which interact with the flight model, to give the end result as we see it now.

Hopefully when Calix Reneau says that the flight model is finished, he is primarily referring to just 1., since 2. and especially 3. could still use a lot of balancing.

What proof we actually have that IFCS exist at all?Only Devs&CR talks that they implemented system that will menage to handle such a complexity in FM.So if is that a case why we can have a simple button to turned on/off and check all that complex mechanics if is already there?If I remember well even before all that talks about IFCS when CR was showing kickstarter flight in super-hornet FM was looking more or less the same,later on when they present to us DFM core of the flight mechanics look the same and If I remember well some ppl. that check AC data claim that there is no IFCS at all??? So pls. I wish that CIG give us just a simple option to check for ourself and try to fly manually with out IFCS and check that great complexity in FM....
 
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Yup. It's Freelancer 2 essentially. And where are all the people boldly proclaiming that ED's flight model was sluggish, where are the yaw-debaters, where are the people parroting CIG's claims about just how complex the flight model is (remember, if it doesn't work you're just holding it wrong) and that it's just feeling so bad because it is really that good. Gone. They're probably playing GTA V now.

You mean "Flight Model is implemented so well, it's perceived as bad" crowd ?

Honestly, I think they could tweak their flight model easily if they wanted to. Just weakening the maneuvering thrusters would solve 70% of the flight model issues, the rest is adding mass (inertia), believability and fun.
 
What proof we actually have that IFCS exist at all?Only Devs&CR talks that they implemented system that will menage to handle such a complexity in FM.So if is that a case why we can have a simple button to turned on/off and check all that complex mechanics if is already there?If I remember well even before all that talks about IFCS when CR was showing kickstarter flight in super-hornet FM was looking more or less the same,later on when they present to us DFM core of the flight mechanics look the same and If I remember well some ppl. that check AC data claim that there is no IFCS at all??? So pls. I wish that CIG give us just a simple option to check for ourself and try to fly manually with out IFCS and check that great complexity in FM....

Of course the IFCS exists, the ships would be completely uncontrollable without it. Since SC individually models each thruster, you need the IFCS to interpret the players simple 2D control input (be it joystick or mouse) plus 1D (thrust controlled by either a throttle or keyboard), and map it out to 24 axes in the case of a Hornet (8 maneuvering thrusters - each one gimbaled (2 axes) with 0-100% thrust output (1 axis)).

Any game which features explicitly modelled thrusters like SC, would need to have a system like IFCS (though they may call it something else), or otherwise force the player to individually control all of the thrusters, which is of course impossible in a fast paced dog fighting game. As such having an on/off option for the IFCS would be completely pointless. Now in SC the IFCS does a lot of things beyond just interpreting the control input of the player (such as counterthrust, enforcing max values for thrust output etc.), and for all of these other things it would certainly be interesting to have a higher degree of customizability on the player side, to get a better understanding of the exact nature of the IFCS.

Also the stuff they showed of in the kickstarter video was all scripted to my knowledge.
 
Of course the IFCS exists, the ships would be completely uncontrollable without it. Since SC individually models each thruster, you need the IFCS to interpret the players simple 2D control input (be it joystick or mouse) plus 1D (thrust controlled by either a throttle or keyboard), and map it out to 24 axes in the case of a Hornet (8 maneuvering thrusters - each one gimbaled (2 axes) with 0-100% thrust output (1 axis)).

Any game which features explicitly modelled thrusters like SC, would need to have a system like IFCS (though they may call it something else), or otherwise force the player to individually control all of the thrusters, which is of course impossible in a fast paced dog fighting game. As such having an on/off option for the IFCS would be completely pointless. Now in SC the IFCS does a lot of things beyond just interpreting the control input of the player (such as counterthrust, enforcing max values for thrust output etc.), and for all of these other things it would certainly be interesting to have a higher degree of customizability on the player side, to get a better understanding of the exact nature of the IFCS.

Also the stuff they showed of in the kickstarter video was all scripted to my knowledge.

Sure..I know that famous story from CR PR talks but let's faced all of that could be just a lie as well,and that thruster's just acting in GFX appearance and move in opposite direction of the ship movement simple as that that's not a proof of the actual implementation of the complex IFCS, in matter of fact that is an actual proof of nice GFX&animation details and nothing more.Did you ever see Devs that flying around without IFCS and trying to fly manually?I guess you didn't,I said it and I will repeat again if is IFCS that complex and if it was so hard job to implement into the game why we are not allowed to try to drive ships manually and with simple button click turned on/off feel complexity of that FM,there is no reason what so ever to not give us this option at all except if that option is not there in a first place,to add this as well why is not possible to have IFCS malfunction in the battle,when your ship is heavily dmg?Lets faced it's much easier job to calculate all of the maneuvering thrusters like 1 and when you loose few in fight the output power formula will reduce thruster power for example from 100% to 60% and so on...That's why they give us IFCS magic fairy tale so we can not question at all the true complexity of the FM...Srry man but till I not see the actual proof I don't believe that exist at all especially not to Mr. CR&CIG....
 
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Only possible upside I can really see here, is that there is arguably a number of different systems that go in to the flying experience of SC, some of which may or may not be considered part of the FM depending upon who you talk to.

For instance you can divide space flight in SC as it is currently into 3 layers:

1. The underlying newtonian physics engine.
2. The IFCS.
3. The number/size/placement of thrusters, and mass/moment of inertia of a ship.

Some might say that all of these three in combination is the flight model, whilst others might say that it is only 1. that is the flight model whilst 2. and 3. are separate systems which interact with the flight model, to give the end result as we see it now.

Hopefully when Calix Reneau says that the flight model is finished, he is primarily referring to just 1., since 2. and especially 3. could still use a lot of balancing.

Agreed about the distinction, but I think that the dev was talking about all three (bug fixes for 1, control updates for 2, unbalanced thruster pairs for 3 and a quote confirming that the current momentum delta between small and bigger ships is a balance measure).

I can personally see two problems with this approach. CIG has done well to implement a pretty extensive and complicated physics based simulation of the different thrusters that ships have. In essence, the goal here is to vary ship behavior according to the physical characteristics that they have, thus having things like battle damage, loadout, mass, cargo and different module quality directly affect the end behavior. This is pretty cool, since it also gives you the opportunity to dynamically change the behavior without having to prescribe different arbitrary states to the flight model for each hull.

The first problem stems from the fact that the ships we are testing now were made before the FM was locked, so its not easy to accommodate those mechanics. This brings out quirks like thruster placement and needed acceleration/output, center of mass/overall mass balance problems, the inability of non fixed thrusters to work as advertised due to acceleration lag, etc etc.

This has forced CIG to do two things at the same time. Hack and slash the IFCS and ship properties so that the hulls can fly properly, and try to re-design the ships so that they are compatible with the physics based model. So now we have ships with thrusters that are visualized in one place and actually fire from another in the hull, same level thrusters (quality, type and size) having completely different outputs from one hull to the other (and even from one side of the ship to the other), somewhat arbitrary mass numbers put in so as to make a ship behave properly, gimbaled thrusters working as fixed, ships having more thrusters in the flight model than what we see (viewable via asset hacking in the client and xml files), etc etc. Essentially, CIG has made a terrific flight model, only to fudge it so that the ships the artists made (and were sold to the playerbase before AC came out) do not feel like a drunk prostitute from Procyon trying to walk straight in a firestorm, and do not look like six big thrusters bolted into a sphere.

The second problem imo has to do with the direction CIG is taking regarding single seat fighter combat. This is a compound problem, since some of the factors that make the overall combat experience can be found again in the physics based model CIG has made. For example, the only way to make ships fly in coupled mode and feel nimble is to assign very powerful maneuvering thrusters to the hulls, thus making the ships have very fast accelerations in all directions. This removes problems with inertia and input lag from the system, but also makes the single seat ships behave like fast FPS turrets in space, with throttle management and maneuvering tactics playing second fiddle to aiming mechanics. If you add the very low TTK, the way gimbaled mounts work, and the fact that the FM forces the player to control 10 different axes directly (6dof for flying, 2 for aiming part of his ordnance, 2 for looking around) while not achieving controller balance (parity is impossible) the end result feels and looks like an arcade game. At least to me, that is.
 
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You mean "Flight Model is implemented so well, it's perceived as bad" crowd ?

Honestly, I think they could tweak their flight model easily if they wanted to. Just weakening the maneuvering thrusters would solve 70% of the flight model issues, the rest is adding mass (inertia), believability and fun.

I agree with you a lot on the maneuvering thrusters. Those things are just way too powerful for the size that they are. They really need to tone them down quite a bit and like you said a lot of the issues will go away.

Agreed about the distinction, but I think that the dev was talking about all three (bug fixes for 1, control updates for 2, unbalanced thruster pairs for 3 and a quote confirming that the current momentum delta between small and bigger ships is a balance measure).

I can personally see two problems with this approach. CIG has done well to implement a pretty extensive and complicated physics based simulation of the different thrusters that ships have. In essence, the goal here is to vary ship behavior according to the physical characteristics that they have, thus having things like battle damage, loadout, mass, cargo and different module quality directly affect the end behavior. This is pretty cool, since it also gives you the opportunity to dynamically change the behavior without having to prescribe different arbitrary states to the flight model for each hull.

The first problem stems from the fact that the ships we are testing now were made before the FM was locked, so its not easy to accommodate those mechanics. This brings out quirks like thruster placement and needed acceleration/output, center of mass/overall mass balance problems, the inability of non fixed thrusters to work as advertised due to acceleration lag, etc etc.

This has forced CIG to do two things at the same time. Hack and slash the IFCS and ship properties so that the hulls can fly properly, and try to re-design the ships so that they are compatible with the physics based model. So now we have ships with thrusters that are visualized in one place and actually fire from another in the hull, same level thrusters (quality, type and size) having completely different outputs from one hull to the other (and even from one side of the ship to the other), somewhat arbitrary mass numbers put in so as to make a ship behave properly, gimbaled thrusters working as fixed, ships having more thrusters in the flight model than what we see (viewable via asset hacking in the client and xml files), etc etc. Essentially, CIG has made a terrific flight model, only to fudge it so that the ships the artists made (and were sold to the playerbase before AC came out) do not feel like a drunk prostitute from Procyon trying to walk straight in a firestorm, and do not look like six big thrusters bolted into a sphere.

The second problem imo has to do with the direction CIG is taking regarding single seat fighter combat. This is a compound problem, since some of the factors that make the overall combat experience can be found again in the physics based model CIG has made. For example, the only way to make ships fly in coupled mode and feel nimble is to assign very powerful maneuvering thrusters to the hulls, thus making the ships have very fast accelerations in all directions. This removes problems with inertia and input lag from the system, but also makes the single seat ships behave like fast FPS turrets in space, with throttle management and maneuvering tactics playing second fiddle to aiming mechanics. If you add the very low TTK, the way gimbaled mounts work, and the fact that the FM forces the player to control 10 different axes directly (6dof for flying, 2 for aiming part of his ordnance, 2 for looking around) while not achieving controller balance (parity is impossible) the end result feels and looks like an arcade game. At least to me, that is.

That was a pretty good summary Dante and I agree, especially on that last paragraph you made.
 
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I used to secretly hope Chris Roberts would take what's left of the now 79 million and disappear in Thailand or The Philippines. Just to see the internet explode.


Now I secretly hope he takes what's left of the money and disappears in his own spaceship. Imagine the lulz.
 
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Hopefully when Calix Reneau says that the flight model is finished [...]
It doesn't matter what he says when CR has said multiple times that nothing is finished until everything is balanced. That goes for the flight model in general, and also thruster outputs specifically. Everything must be balanced in comparison with other, similar components on bigger ships.
 
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Sure..I know that famous story from CR PR talks but let's faced all of that could be just a lie as well,and that thruster's just acting in GFX appearance and move in opposite direction of the ship movement simple as that that's not a proof of the actual implementation of the complex IFCS, in matter of fact that is an actual proof of nice GFX&animation details and nothing more.Did you ever see Devs that flying around without IFCS and trying to fly manually?I guess you didn't,I said it and I will repeat again if is IFCS that complex and if it was so hard job to implement into the game why we are not allowed to try to drive ships manually and with simple button click turned on/off feel complexity of that FM,there is no reason what so ever to not give us this option at all except if that option is not there in a first place,to add this as well why is not possible to have IFCS malfunction in the battle,when your ship is heavily dmg?Lets faced it's much easier job to calculate all of the maneuvering thrusters like 1 and when you loose few in fight the output power formula will reduce thruster power for example from 100% to 60% and so on...That's why they give us IFCS magic fairy tale so we can not question at all the true complexity of the FM...Srry man but till I not see the actual proof I don't believe that exist at all especially not to Mr. CR&CIG....

lol what else? The earth is flat too?

Here is some reading for you:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/13951-Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls
 
It doesn't matter what he says when CR has said multiple times that nothing is finished until everything is balanced. That goes for the flight model in general, and also thruster outputs specifically. Everything must be balanced in comparison with other, similar components on bigger ships.

They are rapidly running out of time, and we've seen nothing concrete to suggest they even accept the controller disparity problem is real. I think it's far more likely thst what we see now is very close to what ships with Squadron 42.

The alternative would be to go back to the drawing board for at least another year. They may well be late by another year anyway, but I don't think they will admit they have wasted all this time with a broken flight model.
 
An arcadey gameplay ruled by overcomplicated physics with many layers of duct-tape to try to balance the different control schemes, and ships not (enough) designed accordingly to flight system they're aiming for. How could overall gameplay, ships, weapons balancing go wrong?

And it looks to me that they're following the same path for FPS. :rolleyes:

Hope RSI will manage to make me wrong though.
 
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jcrg99

Banned
An arcadey gameplay ruled by overcomplicated physics with many layers of duct-tape to try to balance the different control schemes, and ships not (enough) designed accordingly to flight system they're aiming for. How could overall gameplay, ships, weapons balancing go wrong?

And it looks to me that they're following the same path for FPS. :rolleyes:

Hope RSI will manage to make me wrong though.

They will show how wrong you are by 2030.
 
Seriously I think the biggest crowd that thinks the Flight Model is broken is from the ED community. That could be because ED has a different flight model and everything that isn't like ED can be perceived as broken to ED players. I am following the SC news for years and years and the people who actually play AC all compliment the Flight Model and I do so too. Reason is simple. It's fun and it's realistic. It's also a work in progress with many things to be improved on even more. Until now I have not noticed any problem as I was flying that stemmed from the Flight model itself.
 
They are rapidly running out of time, and we've seen nothing concrete to suggest they even accept the controller disparity problem is real. I think it's far more likely thst what we see now is very close to what ships with Squadron 42.

The alternative would be to go back to the drawing board for at least another year. They may well be late by another year anyway, but I don't think they will admit they have wasted all this time with a broken flight model.

They have been using fired coders from JSF. :)
 
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