Traders with Teeth : A Wishlist

[Shayde]

As a harmless, easy going full time trader who loves nothing more than waiting for pirates to steal my cargo, or even better a complete rogue psycho to destroy my Type 9 along with several million credits worth of swag, here's a few ideas to make the bad guys have second thoughts before embarking on their jollies.

1) Cargo Canister Mines. A cargo canister that masks its true contents by means of clever electronics and emits a signal that makes it appear to be a normal, harmless box of trade commodities, when in fact it's a mine chock full of high explosives that can be detonated once the 'pirate' has safely stashed it in his/her cargo hold.


2) Interdiction Disruptor. A fitted unit that sends out a disruption signal to anyone trying to interdict a ship. I would suggest such a thing would only have a percentage chance of success, the higher grade units having a better chance. Perhaps even to the extent of the highest grade units, such as a Grade A or B, sending out some high powered negative feedback wave that has a chance of blowing out the aggressor's interdiction unit.


3) Doppelganger device. A fitted unit that can mirror a ship's signature, so that when an aggressor locks on to interdict a ship they in fact lock on to a doppelganger. What they find is that they have pulled the doppelganger out of SC whilst the trade ship continues on it's merry way. There could be many options of what that doppelganger does (or not) once it's been invited to the party


4 ) Combat drones. So ok, at times the innocent trader/miner or whatever gets pulled out of SC. What then ? At present we can escape reasonably easily with the 'submission-boost-boost-jump' tactic, but for those pirates/psychos baying for the FSD cooldown to not be so fast to give them more time to ply their evil trade how about we can launch combat drones to keep the aggressor busy while we try to escape with our valuable cargo ?

Of course I would suggest that some of the above countermeasures should be very expensive, so that we have some desirable equipment to work toward. But wouldn't you just love the idea of that smug pirate finding he's just hauled in a high explosive mine into his hold ? Or a chance of their expensive interdiction unit being blown to bits each time they decide to ruin an innocent trader's day ?

Please FD, let's give the bad guys something to make them think twice

 

[Anthony Jones]

Trade in a wing with three anacondas

 

[Shayde]

Trade in a wing with three anacondas

....or that Trouble is, you never REALLY know who your friends are

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

Before the shooting starts, I'd just like to say I have seen these discussed in some detail before. Great ideas, but they need to compromise the trader in some way. Hit on hold space, high cost etc.

Piracy needs some love too, though I'm deffo not one of those.

I suspect the whole trading\piracy\pvp and then griefing\ganking thing will still be an issue in 2 years time in ED.

Any way +rep

 

[Scal]

If you give traders cargo mines, you should also give pirates mine detectors so they have a counter. This of course could lead to mines with cloaking devices, and an arms war starts to form. And arms wars lead to variety of equipment, which in turn adds complexity to that cat n mouse game of pirate vs trader, and everyone benefits

 

[Shayde]

Before the shooting starts, I'd just like to say I have seen these discussed in some detail before. Great ideas, but they need to compromise the trader in some way. Hit on hold space, high cost etc.

Piracy needs some love too, though I'm deffo not one of those.

I suspect the whole trading\piracy\pvp and then griefing\ganking thing will still be an issue in 2 years time in ED.

Any way +rep

Yes, definitely need some hit for the trader. Obviously the cargo mine would have a small impact on hold space, but others would just be electronic devices, so I'd say the hit there would be cost. High cost. It kind of scales up. Relatively new traders with small ships possibly wouldn't get targeted quite so much as the guys with Type 9s, so the trade off is there.....the wealthy traders with more to lose would be the only ones that could afford the luxury of the very highest tech counter measures.

To be honest I'm not meaning to enter into the PvP/griefers/gankers argument here. I'm meaning there could be devices to help protect traders, period. So even in the solo game people get pirated/interdicted. I just think it would be entirely logical that devices would exist to counter piracy and interdiction. If devices have been created to interdict, for example, then why wouldn't people be seeking to invent something to stop it ? I doubt very much the millionaire traders of the day would just be happy to sit there as targets and not pay for the best minds to come up with something to protect their business empires.

 

[Lord_Crazy]

Fly a Clipper. You cant ask to fly a T9 and be well armed. It's like a trucker asking to have the fire power of a tank.
Some suggestions have merits though, except the interdiction disruptor: preventing interdiction will basically make traders invincible. Also, as already discussed in some other threads, lot of people pointed out that the interdiction mini-game is already a way to evade, it's way enough.

 

[Shayde]

If you give traders cargo mines, you should also give pirates mine detectors so they have a counter. This of course could lead to mines with cloaking devices, and an arms war starts to form. And arms wars lead to variety of equipment, which in turn adds complexity to that cat n mouse game of pirate vs trader, and everyone benefits

Oh yes, I fully accept that. An electronic arms race would definitely escalate. But at the moment what we've got is the wealthy traders in their Type 9s are targets for anyone who can afford an interdiction unit.....a newbie in a freagle could do it ? Is it likely that the Richard Branson's of the 34th century wouldn't have bought some device that means he could just say 'don't be silly' when someone tried to interdict him ? But of course, the uber rich pirates of the time would possess something to counter the counter, as you say LOL. It's just that at present I don't see it as being logical that a novice pilot in a small ship should be able to interdict a huge trader. I'm not griping about it happening, it's part of the adventure right now, but I'm just thinking in terms of what might actually be the case if it were a 'real' galaxy.

 

[Lord_Crazy]

Oh yes, I fully accept that. An electronic arms race would definitely escalate. But at the moment what we've got is the wealthy traders in their Type 9s are targets for anyone who can afford an interdiction unit.....a newbie in a freagle could do it ? Is it likely that the Richard Branson's of the 34th century wouldn't have bought some device that means he could just say 'don't be silly' when someone tried to interdict him ? But of course, the uber rich pirates of the time would possess something to counter the counter, as you say LOL. It's just that at present I don't see it as being logical that a novice pilot in a small ship should be able to interdict a huge trader. I'm not griping about it happening, it's part of the adventure right now, but I'm just thinking in terms of what might actually be the case if it were a 'real' galaxy.

Well the smallest car can still race a super heavy truck, since the truck is slow and lacks maneuverability.
If an eagle interdicts you nothing prevents you from submitting and then boost away. he will barely scratch your shields, that is if you have shields. I am sorry but I don't agree a newbie cannot do much besides interdicting you, ask your cargo and get a nice "go to hell" in the chat com. I mean, really, an eagle dangerous for a T9?

 

[Shayde]

Fly a Clipper. You cant ask to fly a T9 and be well armed. It's like a trucker asking to have the fire power of a tank.
Some suggestions have merits though, except the interdiction disruptor: preventing interdiction will basically make traders invincible. Also, as already discussed in some other threads, lot of people pointed out that the interdiction mini-game is already a way to evade, it's way enough.

My suggestion is that the super rich traders should be almost invincible. Why can't they have a ship with the cargo capacity of a Type 9 that is able to defend itself and pretty much invulnerable to anything except the big fighter ships ? The Panther Clipper was just that in the earlier incarnations of Elite. Massive shields, piloted turret guns, it was amazing to fly that thing I do see what you are saying, but if you imagine the super rich traders of the future it wouldn't be just a case of a game-balancing issue, it would be that those rich traders would pay for and have the very best devices to defend their cargo. Unfair yes, but mega millionaire traders have never really been involved in fairness. There would never be a situation where the little guy has a chance of bringing down the big guy. It doesn't happen. So I guess I'm saying I'm viewing ED as a simulation rather than a game and thinking 'well, if this were real the multi millionaire just wouldn't get taken out by the novice in his freagle. Ever'.

 

[Lord_Crazy]

My suggestion is that the super rich traders should be almost invincible.

Well no one in this game should be almost invincible especially not traders who are by essence not fighters. Besides, if traders can afford mega-super powerful ships then why could not pirates have even better ships? And so on and so on... ultimately it makes sense to have traders at or near the bottom of the fighting scale.
Anyway if you are super rich and want to trade safe get an Anaconda. The Panther Clipper might come at some point anyway.
And, again, I don't see your point: small ships like Eagle are not a real threat to a T9.

 

[Shayde]

Well the smallest car can still race a super heavy truck, since the truck is slow and lacks maneuverability.
If an eagle interdicts you nothing prevents you from submitting and then boost away. he will barely scratch your shields, that is if you have shields. I am sorry but I don't agree a newbie cannot do much besides interdicting you, ask your cargo and get a nice "go to hell" in the chat com. I mean, really, an eagle dangerous for a T9?

I was just citing an extreme example to highlight my point yes, I can just boost away and escape in my Type 9 if an Eagle interdicted me. It just seems implausible that the Eagle should actually be able to interdict me, and if one tried I'm saying it would be amusing to have some counter measure that allows me to say 'don't be silly'. Of course the much bigger ships, armed to the teeth, would be a different matter. They should be able to be a danger to the top trade ships. I'm just meaning that the trader/pirate battle should scale up. Think of MMORPGs where a high level character is attacked by a low level character. There's pretty much nothing the low level character can do to actually hurt/damage the high level character because of the equipment the high level guy owns and the attributes and skills he has. ED really only has the things we own as a measure of our progress (ships and equipment). So in ED I think the ships and equipment we own should scale up so that only other players/NPCs of higher 'level' and a similar 'level' to ourselves can reasonably expect to challenge us.

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Well no one in this game should be almost invincible especially not traders who are by essence not fighters. Besides, if traders can afford mega-super powerful ships then why could not pirates have even better ships? And so on and so on... ultimately it makes sense to have traders at or near the bottom of the fighting scale.
Anyway if you are super rich and want to trade safe get an Anaconda. The Panther Clipper might come at some point anyway.
And, again, I don't see your point: small ships like Eagle are not a real threat to a T9.

No, you don't see my point LOL

 

[Scal]

Who'd want to fly an invincible trade ship? Just doesn't sound like fun to me.

 

[PhazonAran]

If you give traders cargo mines, you should also give pirates mine detectors so they have a counter. This of course could lead to mines with cloaking devices, and an arms war starts to form. And arms wars lead to variety of equipment, which in turn adds complexity to that cat n mouse game of pirate vs trader, and everyone benefits

Yes, make pirates spend 10 seconds to scan each canister... Huehuehuehuehue

 

[fruitbat]

Works for me.....

Sure i dont kill anything, but i dont die either......

 

[Mrjupp]

I like the idea of cargo mines but there's a simple way for Pirates to survive. Have a Wing that includes at least a single Sidewinder. The Sidey scoops each cargo canister and then releases the safe item again for a bigger ship in the Wing to scoop. Rinse and Repeat. If the Sidewinder explodes then that's an inexpensive risk element.

 

[Lord_Crazy]

Think of MMORPGs where a high level character is attacked by a low level character. There's pretty much nothing the low level character can do to actually hurt/damage the high level character because of the equipment the high level guy owns and the attributes and skills he has.

Well it's different: in MMORPG every character is inherently a warrior, even monks or thieves are fighters. Not in ED. If you are trading in a truck you are a space trucker, not a fighter. Then if you want to trade and fight agin go for a Clipper or an Anaconda. You cannot fly a non fighting ship and then ask for it to be combat-ready.

It just seems implausible that the Eagle should actually be able to interdict me

We don't know how interdiction is working in terms of technology. Nothing warrants that a small ship could not interdict a big ship.

It seems your point mainly lies in the fact that a big ship should not be threatened by a small ship. Don't believe I don't get your point, I am actually sympathetic to your situation but I simply cannot agree. Size and money is not the only thing that matters, the ship profile does as well. A big trucking ship has no fighting ability, so I don't see anything wrong with that type of ship being threatened by whatever they encounter. Also, take a real life example: have you ever seen how some militias destroying tanks in some theaters of operations? They use hand-made little bombs: a single guy spending less than few hundreds dollars can single-handedly blow up an entire multi-million dollars tank. So now replace the tank with a big delivery truck and guess what happens. What abour pirates in Somalia? They usually use super tiny embarkations and can even arrest big tankers. Because the tankers, no matter how big it is and no matter how rich its owner might be, is nothing but a mere tankers. it is not a battleship.

So again I think if you want able to trade with teeth then don't use a fat truck, go for a multi purpose ship. I guess an Anaconda might have enough teeth

 

[Shayde]

Who'd want to fly an invincible trade ship? Just doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not saying it would be invincible to everything. What I'm saying is that the multi million credit trade ship would have high tech devices that would make it virtually invincible to low spec ships. But the pirate king in his battle cruiser would certainly top the best trader ! I'm just meaning the pirate/trader game should scale up. The newbie trader would be blown to hell by the 'high level' pirate, yes ? Why shouldn't the 'high level' trader be basically able to ignore or destroy the newbie pirate ? Meaningful encounters would be between pirate/trader at whatever degree of advanced ship design, equipment each had. Those on an equal standing would have fun encounters, but where there is a massive imbalance I'm saying it's not realistic for one to impact the other, either way.

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Yes, make pirates spend 10 seconds to scan each canister... Huehuehuehuehue

LOL all 500 of them !

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Works for me.....

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...ter_01 Mar. 26 16.09_zps7uasudqr.jpg~original

Sure i dont kill anything, but i dont die either......

Nice I'm working my way up to a Conda That'll do nicely until the Panther Clipper arrives

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I like the idea of cargo mines but there's a simple way for Pirates to survive. Have a Wing that includes at least a single Sidewinder. The Sidey scoops each cargo canister and then releases the safe item again for a bigger ship in the Wing to scoop. Rinse and Repeat. If the Sidewinder explodes then that's an inexpensive risk element.

Oh I have no doubts that in the open game players will come up with clever tactics to get around most anything

 

[Shayde]

Well it's different: in MMORPG every character is inherently a warrior, even monks or thieves are fighters. Not in ED. If you are trading in a truck you are a space trucker, not a fighter. Then if you want to trade and fight agin go for a Clipper or an Anaconda. You cannot fly a non fighting ship and then ask for it to be combat-ready.



We don't know how interdiction is working in terms of technology. Nothing warrants that a small ship could not interdict a big ship.

It seems your point mainly lies in the fact that a big ship should not be threatened by a small ship. Don't believe I don't get your point, I am actually sympathetic to your situation but I simply cannot agree. Size and money is not the only thing that matters, the ship profile does as well. A big trucking ship has no fighting ability, so I don't see anything wrong with that type of ship being threatened by whatever they encounter. Also, take a real life example: have you ever seen how some militias destroying tanks in some theaters of operations? They use hand-made little bombs: a single guy spending less than few hundreds dollars can single-handedly blow up an entire multi-million dollars tank. So now replace the tank with a big delivery truck and guess what happens. What abour pirates in Somalia? They usually use super tiny embarkations and can even arrest big tankers. Because the tankers, no matter how big it is and no matter how rich its owner might be, is nothing but a mere tankers. it is not a battleship.

So again I think if you want able to trade with teeth then don't use a fat truck, go for a multi purpose ship. I guess an Anaconda might have enough teeth

Yes, I do see your points also. I was really using the Type 9 as an example as it's pretty much the end achievement for traders at the moment, other than the Conda. So I'm not just meaning that the Type 9 should be an invincible trading tank. As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm really thinking back to the golden era of the Panther Clipper. With that beastie you kind of pointed it where you wanted to go and went for it. Small ships attacking it were like small annoying insects to swat LOL. But it would be kinda nice to have such a thing as a cargo canister mine that would leave a sour taste in the mouth of a pirate. Yes, they could be expensive so that it's not TOO easy to mine every pirate that takes a pop at you. But the very fact that such things exist might make a potential pirate think twice about attacking anyone and everyone. Like 'hmmm, this guy must be a rich trader considering his ship and cargo, so maybe he's got some defensive equipment that could turn my day into a really bad one ?' you know ? With piracy at the moment pretty much the worst thing that can happen to them is that their intended victim escapes. Frustrating yes, but hardly any real danger or consequence other than that. I'd just like to turn the tables a bit and have the chance there for a pirate to be put in a little more danger, and see how he likes it. The traders DO take massive hits if they lose their ships and cargo, so why not make a pirate consider if it's worth it to attack a trader ?

 

[Shayde]

"What abour pirates in Somalia? They usually use super tiny embarkations and can even arrest big tankers. Because the tankers, no matter how big it is and no matter how rich its owner might be, is nothing but a mere tankers. it is not a battleship".

True, but a super tanker should not even have its paint scratched by a pirate in a rubber dinghy firing a water pistol