I actually prefer the Viper over the Vulture

I can drift above your vulture with my nose pointed on your back faster than you can reverse. I don't even need to get behind you. (But seriously. You just boost past your target and do 180 in FA off. Tadaa, you're behind a target backing up. not that hard.)

And the top speed of a viper is higher than that 402, so unless you're running around naked with absolutely nothing on your ship against a fully kited opponent, nope, you can't outrun a viper in a vulture.
Vulture has more shields then you and more firepower.

Drift all you want, your the one at a disadvantage, not the Vulture.

As for the rest. Dude.
Play the game will ya? Now you are theory crafting wile being totally off based. The Viper loses to anything with a combat load-out past the Cobra, then mass lock makes sure that you are never anything more then an annoyance at best.

Did I mention that the Viper can be two shotted by a large PA? Just food for thought.

Additionally, kek at the Viper top speed argument. FDLS can chase Vipers down for days, Vulture can as well, just not as effectively.

Seriously, the Vulture is enough of a ship to stand toe to toe with Pythons and Anacondas, all at a fraction of the size and price.
 
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You're welcome! The waking may be rough, though. Invitation sent. As soon as I get back, let's confront theories to reality :)

Looking forward to it!

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Vulture has more shields then you and more firepower.

Drift all you want, your the one at a disadvantage, not the Vulture.

As for the rest. Dude.
Play the game will ya? Now you are theory crafting wile being totally off based.

Seriously, this argument is going nowhere. You can say i'm theory crafting, I say you don't know what you're talking about (And I have plenty of playing to base my theory crafting on, thank you). You say you have more firepower and shields, I say you can't hit me and I have better shield cells. I'm out.
 
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The viper definitely makes my tummy rumble when I apply boost, but sadly the downside to this ship is the viewing angle from the cockpit. When using virtual reality its limited viewing angle for a combat ship is lacking, this makes it very difficult to gauge the speed of the target ship when aligning a direct hit. For a win win experience, the sound of the clipper produces just the right level of endorphins.
 
Looking forward to it!

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Seriously, this argument is going nowhere. You can say i'm theory crafting, I say you don't know what you're talking about (And I have plenty of playing to base my theory crafting on, thank you). You say you have more firepower and shields, I say you can't hit me and I have better shield cells.
Except you dont have better cells. You are recovering less over all since you have less shields, and do less damage due to the medium slots being so terrible.

You really don't know how brain dead reversing is. You don't even need gimbles to hit anyone when doing it, and can chase down anyone who figures out its a losing battle.

Anyways, in a straight up dps fight, the Viper loses. You get what you payed for. Movement doesn't help because of one single thing.

Orbiting.

Finally, thanks for admitting you are in fact theory crafting instead of speaking from experience. Things in theory tend to not apply in practice, this is one of them.
 
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Well I am a newbie to Elite dangerous but I love my Vulture, I did love my Viper too, so much so that when I upgraded to a Cobra, I went back to the Viper at first, but nothing will make me swap my Vulture to a viper, but hey, each to there own, fight in what you enjoy and hope you win ;)

I just wish they would let us have A5 power to match all my other fives ;)
 
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I think this thread is explaining to me why nearly every PVP experience I have had has been some numpty in a Viper shooting at my Vulture.

I would definitely call myself a average player but every time I have no real trouble getting on the vipers tail and blast him out of the sky before he has any chance to take off. I have found NPC's more challenging. Like I said I am just an average player with no real skills...

You put two players of the same skill level into the two ship the Vulture will always come out on top..
 
Except you dont have better cells. You are recovering less over all since you have less shields, and do less damage due to the medium slots being so terrible.

You really don't know how brain dead reversing is. You don't even need gimbles to hit anyone when doing it, and can chase down anyone who figures out its a losing battle.

Anyways, in a straight up dps fight, the Viper loses. You get what you payed for. Movement doesn't help because of one single thing.

Orbiting.

Finally, thanks for admitting you are in fact theory crafting instead of speaking from experience. Things in theory tend to not apply in practice, this is one of them.

#1 Since we are on a forum and not playing the game, we are ALL theorycrafting here.
#2 Shield cells are not percentage based. Shield boosters are.

You really don't know how brain dead reversing is. You don't even need gimbles to hit anyone when doing it, and can chase down anyone who figures out its a losing battle.

It doesn't matter when your opponent can just boost right past you. You're not in a clipper, your in a vulture, which is slow as hell.
 
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Err... If I was in a gimballed Vulture VS an all fixed Viper, I'd do anything but run away. Fixed weapons in PvP is only viable if both are equipped with them. Gimballed are slightly less powerful, but their attack angle and hit ratio nullify that consideration. And a chaff launcher will be of little help under concentrated non-stop fire. Eventually, that shield will collapse.

In general, in a Vulture VS a Viper, I'd do anything but run away.

I'm thinking that if both ships are loaded with Chaff, then the Gimballed is useless. Fixed will win. If I had 3 Chaff Launchers I could easily keep firing them non-stop for the entire duration of the fight. Those gimballed hardpoints will only be doing about 10% of their normal damage because of their inaccuracy with Chaff.
 
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Quite honestly, the Vulture holds a few superlatives in my book. For one, it's by a country mile the ugliest boat in the game. Two, it's the most boring boat in the game (if you don't actively seek out PvP all the time). After a week of not being killed once, I developed an irresistible yawn reflex whenever something opened up on me.

It's clinical, characterless, overpowered, deathmatch-only. I hate it. Please continue.
 
My two favorite ships. There are only 2 things the viper does better than the Vulture though, Catch and Run. Neither of which will help until the run part comes up, sorry.
 

-Better shield cells: A viper can have 2 class 3 shield cell banks, …

Wait, what? 2 class 3 SCBs? Last time I checked the Viper has 2 class 3 slots and in one is the shield generator. Are you using 2 C3 SCB and a class 2 shield generator? So instead of a A3 shield with 178.5 MJ you are using a A2 shield with 122.84 MJ.

So assuming you use the A2 shield and the 2 A3 SCB, that would give you at best 2x (4 x 122.84) MJ = 982,72 MJ additional shield power (as the shield cells can only charge the shields to their max strength) resulting in 1105,56 MJ total shield power.
The Vulture has a A5 shield with 391.96 and a A4 SCB or 1959,9 MJ total.
Maybe I'm wrong or my calculation is wrong, but somehow this sounds like the Vulture has almost twice the amount of shield power (with only one SCB and no shield boosters) than the viper.


And the top speed of a viper is higher than that 402, …

Never locked to closely to the boost speed of my Vulture, but my Viper gets to 410 or something like that (after trying to make her as light as possible). Guess I will have to optimize my load outs a bit.
 
Im wholly in the viper fan club. I have a vulture somewhere, taking dust. I love the viper cause i love flying, not just destroying things. Someone used the word elegant in this thread. That's the viper
 
You can't get passed someone in reverse, it's sad but true. Even trying to boost around some of the heavier Anacondas can be tricky if they are moving away from you. If you try and boost passed a reversing Vulture they will just pitch up and face you, their agility really is that good. While gimbals are not accurate at range, sub 500 metres they work just fine on small ships. The Viper doesn't stand a chance against a Vulture - this is as it should be, given the price difference.
 
Wait, what? 2 class 3 SCBs? Last time I checked the Viper has 2 class 3 slots and in one is the shield generator. Are you using 2 C3 SCB and a class 2 shield generator? So instead of a A3 shield with 178.5 MJ you are using a A2 shield with 122.84 MJ.
My mistake, it's c2+c3 vs c3+c4. But still the shield/shield cell ratio of the viper is miles ahead of the vulture.

Never locked to closely to the boost speed of my Vulture, but my Viper gets to 410 or something like that (after trying to make her as light as possible). Guess I will have to optimize my load outs a bit.

It doesn't really matter. I was responding to a guy claiming that the absolute top speed of a vulture is 402, but the absolute top speed and the actual top speed of your ship are two very different things. I highly doubt that a vulture that actually reach 402 is really fit for combat.

If you try and boost passed a reversing Vulture they will just pitch up and face you, their agility really is that good.

Well in that case they ain't reversing anymore are they.
 
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So much wrong with this post, lets start.

#1 Since we are on a forum and not playing the game, we are ALL theorycrafting here.
#2 Shield cells are not percentage based. Shield boosters are.



It doesn't matter when your opponent can just boost right past you. You're not in a clipper, your in a vulture, which is slow as hell.
Seriously, thats your answer to a blatant lack of experience with the matchup? We all theorycrafting instead of using combat experience as a basis? Common man.

Two, cells recover a flat amount. Vulture has access to bigger banks the Viper does not, hence more recovery in total with larger shields to actually recover.

My mistake, it's c2+c3 vs c3+c4. But still the shield/shield cell ratio of the viper is miles ahead of the vulture.
You what?

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60N,5TE5TE01Q01Q0-80-8,2-6Q8S6Q5K7_6u5A,7iW7RA7dq

Full shield recovery, at twice the amount available to the Viper.



obliterato said:
It doesn't really matter. I was responding to a guy claiming that the absolute top speed of a vulture is 402, but the absolute top speed and the actual top speed of your ship are two very different things. I highly doubt that a vulture that actually reach 402 is really fit for combat.
That IS the combat top speed. Do you even own the ship, and have it maxed out? I dont think you do. Even then, you dont need speed to reverse. Anacondas win every one on one engagement because of this.

obliterator said:
Well in that case they ain't reversing anymore are they.
Except they still are. You still fail to see how the tactic applies and why it works. Test it with a friend.

Finally, Class 3 lasers of any kind destroy small ships. Its sad really.
 
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You can't get passed someone in reverse, it's sad but true. Even trying to boost around some of the heavier Anacondas can be tricky if they are moving away from you. If you try and boost passed a reversing Vulture they will just pitch up and face you, their agility really is that good. While gimbals are not accurate at range, sub 500 metres they work just fine on small ships. The Viper doesn't stand a chance against a Vulture - this is as it should be, given the price difference.

Sorry, I got a Vulture to see what it was all about, the Viper owns it.

Like comparing fighter planes, the Vulture is an F-15, the Viper is a SU-27.
 
The viper is a fantastic medium fighter. To be compared to a ship with significantly better mobility, over double the shields, and over double the firepower.... no. The Vulture is way out of the Viper's league in every way except for speed in a straight line. Skill is not something thay needs to be brought up to compare ships... it's a metric that is different for everyone. While I agree an Elite viper can kill a Competent vulture, it doesn't necessarily mean its a better ship. When I am killing novice Anacondas it's not like I think that the Anaconda sucks...

If a Viper pilot and a Vulture pilot 1v1'd the winner would be the one with more fixed weapons. If the Viper was all fixed vs an all gimballed Vulture, the Vulture would probably try to run away. But if tables were flipped where the Vulture is all fixed, I would feel like the Viper may not survive fleeing while the shields on the Vulture would.

Sure, on paper there are obvious differences. I find that people in larger more powerful ships tend to try the sucker shot approach more than anything though because the difference in alpha damage makes smaller ships like a viper seem like a larger version of the sidewinder. A well timed shot can strip the shields off a viper almost instantly.

The mistake many people in larger ships make though is in thinking that paper specifications will translate into nothing but win against other human players. One thing you ignored in your truthful assessment of firepower though is the relative fragility of various subsystems (which I think i something that will be fixed over time). It's much easier to defeat one subsystem on a large ship than the entire vessel, so I never try to overpower it in my viper because that would be stupid.

The sustained level of damage I can deal out with 2 beams and 2 cannons is a lot more than the scatter shots I get in return.

The other thing I see few pilots do effectively is make aggressive use of speed changes and thrusters to make the ship do things it shouldn't be able to do on paper. All of our ships want to fly more or less in straight lines and in a partially newtonian galaxy we can use inertia to our advantage. Don't let your speed get stuck in the blue zone, but consider it more like being in frameshift where your actual speed is always changing as the counter to a destination is stuck at 6 or 7 seconds.

If I put it this way it might be easier to make sense: My thrust might be at max for 4 seconds while I'm turning and using counter-thrust to pull my nose over faster, then my thrust will drop to zero or even a little reverse to counter the inertia and keep my guns pointed at an enemy ship a little longer....if he's smart he's already pulling out out my optimal targeting area and I can continue to reverse or hit afterburners, +2 pips to engines to recharge for 3 seconds, and reset my orientation depending on where he is on my map. If he manages to get behind me, then hit the chaff, slow down for 2 seconds and use thrusters only to change my ship orientation before hitting burners.

It wasn't quite the same thing but I used to fly a lot like that in Freespace 2 where dogfights could end up in neverending loops until I showed my clan how to draw figure-8's in 3 dimensions so the enemy players never knew where the outside of the 8 was going to be.

The bottom line is a lot of people get stuck on shooting and forget to use most of the other controls...
 
As a ship and the experience of flying it yeah i agree with you.
As a tool the Vulture is far superior.
The vulture is so clinical and lifeless in its operation. That and the abhorrent lack of dakka.
 
I'm confident enough in my experiences with both ships to say that I could drive off or destroy any Viper, piloted by any CMDR, ten times in ten, in a Vulture. I could not do it the other way around (though there are certainly some Vulture pilots I could down in my Viper).

I think that people greatly exaggerate how much "better" the Vulture is than the Viper. It's at least as much of a sidegrade as it is an upgrade, especially in terms of PvP.

It has at least 50% more firepower, three times the shield strength, similar acceleration, and better rotational axis performance. The Viper has an edge in speed, profile, and weapon convergence, but this is not enough to make up for it's other performance deficits vs. the Vulture.

It's not a sidegrade, it's a decisively stronger combat vessel.

-Better shield cells: A viper can have 2 class 3 shield cell banks, and the vulture can have one class 4 and one class 2. Now let's do the maths: 2x 3a scb= 1104 mj 1x4a scb+1x2a scb=1083 mj. So yup, the viper can actually tank more damage in a 1v1 than the vulture.

A Viper has two class size three slots and one of them is going to go to the shields unless you are a fool. Even if you feel confident in sacrificing more than a third of your shield strength by using a class 2 shield, you'd still have to fiddle with enabling and disabling separate SCBs to take advantage of them, and you'd still be limited to using an SCB every six seconds. A Viper's shields simply aren't strong enough to leverage this supposed SCB advantage...which isn't there anyway.

-More optimal loadouts: while the vulture will always deal more damage, the viper still can close the gap by using weapons that are simply not avalaible in class 3 (missiles, railguns, mutli-cannons).

There is no combination of weapons the Viper can equip that is superior to what the Vulture can equip.

And then someone shows up with a loaded FDL and ruins it all for everyone.

The Vulture can out brawl the FDL, and even if the FDL is wise enough not to brawl, the Vulture is still nimble and tough enough to disengage.
 
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