Piracy as an actual career path - questions and doubts

[Koojav]

Hi,
this is my first post on this forum so please be gentle.

I did my share of things in Elite but chosen to become a pirate. Full PvP mode, not griefing just simply killing players. I know that views on that are divided but please let's not discuss the moral aspect of the whole thing, let's just stick to the mechanic itself.

Interdiction.

Current system is not flawed, it's simply broken. A pirate can interdict a person a countless number of times and they can submit and avoid that. Whole thing will result with interdictee being as annoyed as interdictor without any of them having fun, sense of danger or being proud for executing a skill requiring maneuver of any kind.

The issue and possible solutions have been already described a long time by ED's Lead Designer:

* Submission escape: we are looking into two potential solutions to the ability for ships to submit then charge their frame shift five seconds later.

First though, a rationale as to why we have submission: we want authority ships to be able to drop players out of super cruise, in order that they can scan them. If authority ships can't do this, then smuggling loses some of its excitement. On the other hand, we don't want authority interdictions to damage the ships involved if the Commander is willing to submit to scanning. We also don't want to leave players with a significant cooldown afterwards.

Solution one is to allow the interdictor device to have some sort of FSD delaying attack in normal space, that is temporarily disabled when the device is used for a successful interdiction. So submitting Commanders would be at risk of this attack, whilst Commanders that fought the interdiction would not (but instead would have to contend with their frame shift cool down).

An added benefit would be that the interdictor could be used outside of interdiction.

Solution two would be to remove submission and instead update the AI to be able to demand Commanders to drop of their own accord so that the authority ships could drop out onto them and scan.

Both solutions are non-trivial, both have pros and cons. No ETA, but we are working towards fixing this exploit.

It would be nice to get an update on the state of the works regarding that since without this fix piracy is just an annoyance to both sides of the barricade.


Post interdiction behaviour.

When hunted player fails the interdiction the resulting fight itself is usually on the boring side - straight line chase till his FSD charges fully and he is able to escape. What could help in this case is the introduction of speed dimnishing modules and of course counter module so both sides could be equally prepared. Such a module could generate substantial amount of heat thus wouldn't inhibit the drive permanently.


Summary.

I think that resolving both of those issues would bring more flavour to the game, make piracy a viable career path and allow non-PvP oriented players to to actively, by means of planning the proper outfit for their ship, defend themselves.

 

[Troa Barton]

I would be all for piracy buffs and all the ideas put towards them. The problem is there is a fine line between pirate and griefer acting like a pirate.
a good pirate doesn't kill the golden goose because that's the pirates form of income. Griefers kill indiscriminately, frontier needs to widen the gap between the two "play styles" before addressing piracy as a role.
imo this comes in the form of bounties placed on you for killing another player along with other restrictions that come along with it. Such as denied docking clearance, a hearty murder bounty, hordes of npc's gunning you down if you become notorious enough, unclearable bounties that must be paid by the offending player if destroied no matter where they respawn.
The griefers then become a giant cash cow and actually add to the game experience if they choose this path.
pirates on the other hand as mentioned before should not want to destroy their source of income. Currently pirates only do this in the event that they have a runner that they need to teach a lesson to.
If killing becomes unsavory that gives traders an ace in the hole and will always run. To counter this pirates would need more tools in order to capture and hold prey without killing them. Traders would need ways of countering this as well.
all of this would need a fix to current exploits to escape that I will respectfully not mention. Along with a longer FSD cool down.

all of this is for naught if it's not properly balanced, which currently it isn't which is why you see so many traders in solo. Traders should not fear pirates and open play, they do now because pirates and griefers are such a close comparison. Make it a fear of losing cargo and threat of death not being mindlessly killed.

 

[Koojav]

The griefers then become a giant cash cow and actually add to the game experience if they choose this path.

While being on the "bad" side I'm all in for having a not easily removable bounty placed on your head, being chased by NPC security forces and other stuff you have mentioned. This just adds more the experience itself. This would also work towards expansion of bounty hunter profession - the more pirates with bounties on them the more players would hunt them down, which also would work well for traders in the open play. If pirates are the source of income for others they can't just stay all the time in most populated areas since hunters would also be there.

It all evens itself out, adding a new level of experience to the game, just not in the current state of it. No working engagement (interdiction, disabling, slowing down) mechanic, no proper bounty system.

I would really appreciate any DEV input here with some ETA on fixes, since they have been planned since January 2015.

 

[Anopheles]

Speaking as a pirate, I've oft said that piracy should be easy to begin, middling difficulty in the execution and damned hard after the fact.

It may surprise some to hear that I have argued for stiffer penalties, exile from 'decent, law abiding stations' and a greater (if more focussed) police presence. As long as the rewards also scale up and this means a better black market price, ability to wipe out bounties on mission completion and cheaper modules/repairs/fuel at certain, disreputable stations.

Edit: I'd also like grappling hooks because, well they'd be cool and would prevent most people just running off.

 

[pluton]

I did my share of things in Elite but chosen to become a pirate. Full PvP mode, not griefing just simply killing players.

It sounds that you want to intercept players and engage in combat, rather than piracy. OK if the other player is in a combat ship, but that's not piracy.

Pirates target traders carrying cargo. Traders often don't have combat skills, or don't have weapons, or aren't interested in combat. All these apply to me. To fight against an experienced combat player in a superior ship would be stupid and suicidal.

I am in favour of pirates. I try to avoid them, or escape them, or if that fails then give them the cargo that they demand. So far I haven't lost a ship to a pirate. Fortunately, if I'm beaten and I surrender, with shields down and hull damage, the pirate has taken cargo (probably more than the original demand) and let me go. That's enjoyable to both parties. Next time I'll do better.

I have no respect for a player who just wants to kill me. That's no fun for either player.

 

[Koojav]

It sounds that you want to intercept players and engage in combat, rather than piracy. OK if the other player is in a combat ship, but that's not piracy.
(...)
I have no respect for a player who just wants to kill me. That's no fun for either player.

I think you might have not read the original post, so I'll quote it for you:

I know that views on that are divided but please let's not discuss the moral aspect of the whole thing, let's just stick to the mechanic itself.

There is combat in Elite, whether you like it or not. Some people will try to kill you, others will simply aim to rob you.

The idea behind this thread is that current interdiction/engagement/bounty mechanic gets fixed so both sides receive options that can actually affect the outcome of pirate attacks, followed by appropriate, long term, consequences.

 

[pluton]

I think you might have not read the original post, so I'll quote it for you:

And I wrote: "I have no respect for a player who just wants to kill me", whether you like it or not. I can disagree with you, whether you like it or not. What you suggested is not piracy, so don't call yourself a pirate. It gives pirates a bad name.

If you want combat, there's no point in attacking traders who don't fight. That's obvious. You need to target combat players. May I suggest, for a start, Anopheles (posted above) and his CODE gang (although I've not seen much of them lately). They are equipped for combat, enjoy it, and boast about their exploits.

However if it's not combat you want, but rather just to kill weaker players and cause them grief, then call yourself what you really are.

 

[Jackie Silver]

And I wrote: "I have no respect for a player who just wants to kill me", whether you like it or not. I can disagree with you, whether you like it or not. What you suggested is not piracy, so don't call yourself a pirate. It gives pirates a bad name.
However if it's not combat you want, but rather just to kill weaker players and cause them grief, then call yourself what you really are.

Well said. There are potentially reasons why someone would hunt and kill hapless traders, so the OP is not necessarily a griefer, but they certainly don't sound like a pirate. On account of pirates generally being in it for the loot and all.

Also: much as I hate to agree with Anopheles on anything, +1 for grappling hooks.

 

[Troa Barton]

Speaking as a pirate, I've oft said that piracy should be easy to begin, middling difficulty in the execution and damned hard after the fact.

It may surprise some to hear that I have argued for stiffer penalties, exile from 'decent, law abiding stations' and a greater (if more focussed) police presence. As long as the rewards also scale up and this means a better black market price, ability to wipe out bounties on mission completion and cheaper modules/repairs/fuel at certain, disreputable stations.

Edit: I'd also like grappling hooks because, well they'd be cool and would prevent most people just running off.

Piracy and smuggling should be the only truly dynamic professions that get increasingly harder and more profitable as you scale in terms of ship, rating, and skill.
smuggling is currently non-exsistant but if it were truely a thing pirates would have much juicier targets. There should be two levels of trading low risk medium reward and smuggling being high risk very high reward. This would also lend itself considerably to pirates being able to make good money off of smugglers. It would also make trading regular commodities in open more appealing meaning more targets for lower skilled pirates.

I have a great deal of respect for skilled pirates that can own their profession without belittling or killing their targets. Especially ones that can do that and be successful.

Griefers on the other hand are a scourge with no redeeming qualities in the game at the moment. They soil the reputation of real pirates, and scare many players into solo play which hurts everyone and this game as a whole.

widening the gap between pirate and griefer while making the griefer play style an asset to the game is what direction the game needs to go.

I once willingly took on a top bounty board player, this player was seemingly pulling everyone over and sprawling for a fight. While this player was not a griefer it would look that way at first to anyone, it did to me at first I must admit. Well I fought this player and rightfully got it handed to me, in comparison I had worse ship with an incomparable amount of PvP experience in comparison to this player. He let me live saying that it was a good fight, and it was one hell of a fight. It was the most fun I've had in this game.
The most important part of this is that he let me shoot first. He was fine interdicting people and shooting them once to up his bounty but did not kill anyone that didn't fight back.
This changed the way I looked at griefers, and pirates, but it also made me aware of a third option, duelist. There are many players that seek a challenge in combat and let's face it npc's arent it. That said I label griefer with non consensual PvP combat those that go to new player systems in vultures to slaughter sidewinders. Players that ram people in stations, hackers, the missile spam in station days of old.

The duelist aka "griefer" by today's definition wants a good fight and a hard game. Actively pursues players in combat capable ships. Wants nothing to do with traders, gains a huge bounty to lure out all of the bounty hunters and meet their death in glorious combat. My proposed changes for murder augments this play style and makes it one you would have difficulty looking down on.

The juvenile delinquent, the real griefers out there would quickly find themselves a target like the duelist but without the desire to have been one in the first place.

P.S. Grappling hooks would be cool.

 

[Koojav]

And I wrote: "I have no respect for a player who just wants to kill me", whether you like it or not. I can disagree with you, whether you like it or not. What you suggested is not piracy, so don't call yourself a pirate. It gives pirates a bad name.

Your respect and naming conventions are no concern of mine. Bugged, badly planned features, that limit the options for any type of player, are such a thing. This is what this thread is about.

If you want combat, there's no point in attacking traders who don't fight. That's obvious.

The idea behind any type of engagement, be it real life or a simulation, is that an attacker chooses his target, not the other way. Although accidentally we both agreed on something - I want the both sides to have any actual fighting/evading possibilities.

In the current state of ED there are none, if I see a trader he is most probably dead, unless he uses exploits regarding FSD Interdiction. Both me and him will know that there was nothing to be done about that thus he'll get disappointed and my pleasure from intercepting a trader will be severely reduced, not only because of the lack of depth in it but also by the lack of any consequences on my side.

There is no point in being the scourge of this erm... Space Everything (name patent pending) if you can erase all that and go back to being most noble of citizens a minute later by paying a laughable fee.

The aforementioned trader could have anticipated meeting a space baddie but when outfitting his ship he could have done close to nothing about that. That's the real issue here, both sides need modules that allow for better interaction.

Once again - I will not get involved into the morality of the whole thing in this topic, this is not the place for it. If you so strongly feel about the need of sharing your thought in that regard please PM me, I'll gladly respond there with the description of my stance regarding the matter.

 

[Jezzah]

I've said it since alpha over a year ago Piracy needs to be it's own profession with its own rewards and it's own consequences.

1) Should be a piracy path to elite separate from the pilots federation..mafia structure anyone?

2) pirates should have very stiff penalties for killing folk outright.

3) pirates should not be welcome in any civilised system based on a notoriety system scale of reaction from authority.

4) there should be ways for pirates to gain influence within piratical organisations so they can sell their booty for much better prices than now.

5) pirates should have access to unique gear that comes from allegiance and missions run for pirate organisations. Further up the food chain the better the gear.

6) there should ALWAYS be a route back to civilised behaviour and acceptance even for the diehard pirates that wish to turn their spots. The further down the pirate road you go however the harder it will be to come back.

 

[Koojav]

Piracy and smuggling should be the only truly dynamic professions that get increasingly harder and more profitable as you scale in terms of ship, rating, and skill.

(..)

The duelist aka "griefer" by today's definition wants a good fight and a hard game. Actively pursues players in combat capable ships. Wants nothing to do with traders, gains a huge bounty to lure out all of the bounty hunters and meet their death in glorious combat. My proposed changes for murder augments this play style and makes it one you would have difficulty looking down on.

The juvenile delinquent, the real griefers out there would quickly find themselves a target like the duelist but without the desire to have been one in the first place.

Duelists, pirates, griefers (as you refer to people attacking traders, not onces bumping people into stations etc.) are just names for same people choosing different targets. It's their choice and cannot be limited just by someone else's views.

Aggressors choice should be evaluated based on available interdiction/engagement/outfitting options and their counterpart on target's side.

Right now there are no modules that give any choice when outfitting and when engaging.

I fully agree with you on the matter of "dynamic profession". Risk & reward. With properly implemented bounty system there would way less people attacking only traders. Why? Simply because they would get a long lasting bounty and themselves would be hunted. They would be the target now and this is fine.

I we all just look at that from the perspective of the mechanic, all morality aside, implementation of mentioned features would result in self regulating ecosystem. A simple example:

A player decides to hunt defenseless traders. Kills a bunch of them, gets a permanent bounty on his head. He becomes the viable source of income, other players see this as a viable income source and start hunting him. Even though this player continues to hunt down traders he cannot do that safely in the populated systems since others are on to him too.

I don't want easier life for pirates, I want a working one, with both sides being able to adjust for existence of such profession.

 

[pluton]

The idea behind any type of engagement, be it real life or a simulation, is that an attacker chooses his target, not the other way.

Yes. If you want combat, target a combat ship. If you want to pirate cargo, target a trader. You seemed to suggest otherwise.

I want the both sides to have any actual fighting/evading possibilities. In the current state of ED there are none, if I see a trader he is most probably dead, unless he uses exploits regarding FSD Interdiction.

I don't agree. I'm a trader. Sometimes I can evade a pirate in supercruise, sometimes I can't. I don't bother with the interdiction mini-game. I've NEVER managed to win that against a player. After being interdicted, sometimes I can escape even from an experienced pirate, sometimes I can't. It depends on the skill and equipment of the pirate, and whether or not I make mistakes. I don't do combat (I'm hopeless at it), but this is a challenge which I enjoy.

To say that there are no evading possibilities is just wrong, although of course there are traders who are poorly equipped, or inexperienced, or panic, or who don't know when to surrender.

unless he uses exploits regarding FSD Interdiction.

I'm not sure what you consider exploits, but if I'm interdicted by a Clipper (or worse a wing of Clippers) then I'm going to try to hyper-jump out of system before he can disable me. There is no other escape option, and it's no fun if there's no possibility of escape. Hyper-jumping under fire after an interdiction isn't as easy as it sounds. There's plenty of opportunity for mistakes unless you are prepared.

if I see a trader he is most probably dead

Then you are not a pirate. The aim of piracy is loot. Killing the trader doesn't achieve that, unless it's to carry out the second part of the "your money or your life" threat.

I will not get involved into the morality of the whole thing in this topic

How convenient.

 

[Troa Barton]

Duelists, pirates, griefers (as you refer to people attacking traders, not onces bumping people into stations etc.) are just names for same people choosing different targets. It's their choice and cannot be limited just by someone else's views.

Correct names in definition of the play styles themselves, my argument is to allow the game to be played in any way but with meaningful consiquenses and in doing so making even the less desirable aspects of the game an asset to it.

Aggressors choice should be evaluated based on available interdiction/engagement/outfitting options and their counterpart on target's side.

Agreed at the moment though there isn't any real incentive to beef up a trading ship without losing too much in jump rage. This is why I proposed smuggling. On a different note I also think that all trading ships should get a buff so that all or nothing isn't the only viable way to trade.

Right now there are no modules that give any choice when outfitting and when engaging.

going to have to disagree that there are no options, there are but they are limited and for the most part unfavorable on trading vessels. Bounties can also dictate as to if you will be in combat or not.

I fully agree with you on the matter of "dynamic profession". Risk & reward. With properly implemented bounty system there would way less people attacking only traders. Why? Simply because they would get a long lasting bounty and themselves would be hunted. They would be the target now and this is fine.

appreciated

I we all just look at that from the perspective of the mechanic, all morality aside, implementation of mentioned features would result in self regulating ecosystem. A simple example:

A player decides to hunt defenseless traders. Kills a bunch of them, gets a permanent bounty on his head. He becomes the viable source of income, other players see this as a viable income source and start hunting him. Even though this player continues to hunt down traders he cannot do that safely in the populated systems since others are on to him too.

exactly what I hope will happen with this game, the ecosystem at the moment is broken on so many levels.

I don't want easier life for pirates, I want a working one, with both sides being able to adjust for existence of such profession.

I don't think pirates for the most part want an easy profession either, I can't speak for everyone but a little pride in what you do is always welcome. A working one is preferred no matter what the mechanic, I don't think it would be a far assumption to say that pirates want a profitable profession as well. The mechanic of smuggling high value goods with a much higher risk accociated makes hardcore traders, Han solos, pirates, and bounty hunters happy.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

if I'm beaten and I surrender, with shields down and hull damage, the pirate has taken cargo (probably more than the original demand) and let me go. That's enjoyable to both parties. Next time I'll do better.

As a pirate, I do up to double the original demand for runners, unless they're rare runners, which using a limpet usually pulls more cargo than my demand.

 

[Galdatron]

I very much would like to continue making demands on pilots and giving them the option to stop and comply but I have found 1 in 10 will actually stop forcing me to destroy the others who somehow think they can escape. I do it this way because I think it's more fun from an RP perspective but in terms of making a living out of it, it's just not working. This approach will be even less viable when tougher penalties are introduced for player killing. I should also point out that I NEVER destroy a ship if the pilot complies.

What does work is blowing out the targets shields and sending in the hatch breakers. This guarantees booty, but leaves the other pilot with no option but to self destruct.

What I would like to see is something in the middle. The ability to temporarily disable their drive. Perhaps limpets could do this. Render drive inoperable whilst they are in operation.

 

[pluton]

but I have found 1 in 10 will actually stop forcing me to destroy the others who somehow think they can escape.

Traders need to learn when they can't escape. I'll usually run, but if I lose my shields and the jump out is more than a couple of seconds away then I'll stop and surrender. I have a surrender message on hotkey ready to go.

One persuing pirate crashed into the back of me and exploded me when I stopped, but he apologized later, so I'll call it a traffic accident rather than a pirate kill

Have you tried setting up a series of educational messages in AutoHotKey or similar software so you can explain to traders their chances of survival, and a cost-benefit analysis of complying, without the need to type the messages while you're chasing?

What does work is blowing out the targets shields and sending in the hatch breakers. This guarantees booty, but leaves the other pilot with no option but to self destruct.

The Reboot/Repair feature is an improvement, You can shoot out a trader's drives to stop him, without it being fatal. I've had that done to me.

It's sad that the OP seems to WANT to destroy traders, That spoils the game for everyone.

 

[Quineloe]

Hi,



Post interdiction behaviour.

When hunted player fails the interdiction the resulting fight itself is usually on the boring side - straight line chase till his FSD charges fully and he is able to escape. What could help in this case is the introduction of speed dimnishing modules .

Sorry, don't pirate something you can't catch during a full interdiction cooldown. Not every ship is able to pirate every ship.

and yeah, you're not a pirate, you're a griefer. You got rich with a career other than piracy, now you're using that money to fuel your murder hobby.

 

[Koojav]

It's sad that the OP seems to WANT to destroy traders, That spoils the game for everyone.

First thing I do every single time, after the interdiction process, is requesting voice comm from my target. Till this date only one person answered. Simple chat would have spared those ships but they decided to ignore a life saving call.

Traders are not invulnerable nor they should be treated as such just because they say so. I'm all up for providing them with means to avoid being interdicted, slowed down and in the end destroyed but the other side has to be provided with same range of options.

Outsmarting the opponent by making correct ship fit choices is the key to a meaningful game. Elite is amazingly shallow when it comes to this aspect.

 

[pluton]

First thing I do every single time, after the interdiction process, is requesting voice comm from my target. Till this date only one person answered. Simple chat would have spared those ships but they decided to ignore a life saving call.

Really? That's silly. You expect players to have a microphone connected and ready to use? And be competent at spoken English? Seriously?

Do you send a "Stop and comply and you won't be harmed" text comms message? That'll work better.

Traders are not invulnerable nor they should be treated as such just because they say so.

Agreed. If a trader chooses option 2 from "Your money or your life", then of course you shoot them. But it's not piracy if you don't give them the choice.

Outsmarting the opponent by making correct ship fit choices is the key to a meaningful game.

Yes. If I was trading in a Type6 with average shields then I would have no choice but to comply with your pirating demands if interdicted. I'd be foolish to try and run, although many do.