A group player's experiment in Open as regards the new crime & consequence mechanics.

[Jordan Cobalt]

Ok, in an attempt to try and refocus the thread on the original topic I made an extract of my interpretation of the OP:
.

I still feel something is missing... I think we need to give pirates (and I mean pirates) something in exachange for making them retreat to anarchy systems.

How about your cargo

Seriously tho, This idea won't force any pirates to do business in anarchy systems. As someone who never pays his bounty, being always wanted isn't a big deal. The cops are inept. The only challenge is player bounty hunters, but you can escape them with a decent ship and know how.

And this is a pretty simple solution, but it MAY work: What about just adding new VERY EXPENSIVE items to the commodities market. These items, being more expensive, would give better profits... and would also give better reasons to play to the pirates. Also, these more expensive items should be for sale mostly in anarchy systems
This is just a draft, so feel free to improve this idea as you see fit.

Good idea but since you don't go through anarchy systems with the stuff you buy there in your hold. It won't effect where pirates pirate. They would just go to the closest system where that commodity is in high demand.

 

[xkjacob]

How about your cargo

Seriously tho, This idea won't force any pirates to do business in anarchy systems. As someone who never pays his bounty, being always wanted isn't a big deal. The cops are inept. The only challenge is player bounty hunters, but you can escape them with a decent ship and know how.


Good idea but since you don't go through anarchy systems with the stuff you buy there in your hold. It won't effect where pirates pirate. They would just go to the closest system where that commodity is in high demand.

Be careful with that thinking it might get you ignored. They didn't even know you can shoot the cargo hatch to make cargo fall out . very good points though. Very good points.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I like most of the ideas in the thread. Punishment should be harsher for pirates. The discussion should be about better cops instead of a more bounties.

One thing I didn't like sandmans idea of requiring playtime to remove bounties. It should be one or the other, Not both. Since real time is already in place(with mission and bouties) that seems the better choice.

For instance (this is just one possibility)... If we give them a non-damaging method to STOP ships (that comes with a cost & limited uses, similar to shield cells) it'd mean they could then threaten and/or use hatch breakers effectivley.

An emp will be too powerful and be used by killers as well as pirates.

The better solution would be to just have shooting out the drives bring the ship to a halt. It will still be used by killers but it's avoidable with some fancy flying. It also requires some careful shooting by the pirate instead of a single button press.

The worst crime they'd be committing then is theft, not murder... which would mean much shorter & local only bounties and smaller fines coz it's non-lethal. And if the trade ships are more sure they'll actually not get killed (because of the very strict penalties for murder and the light ones for theft) they are more likely to "play the game".

Murder is also a tool for piracy, or at least threat of murder is. If you take away that tool it becomes harder to "convince" players to drop cargo.

Penalties for murder over theft/assault should be harsh, but not too harsh(ala eve's instakill cops). Murder is as much a tool in the pirates belt as limpets are.

 

[vizvayu]

How about your cargo

Seriously tho, This idea won't force any pirates to do business in anarchy systems. As someone who never pays his bounty, being always wanted isn't a big deal. The cops are inept. The only challenge is player bounty hunters, but you can escape them with a decent ship and know how.


Good idea but since you don't go through anarchy systems with the stuff you buy there in your hold. It won't effect where pirates pirate. They would just go to the closest system where that commodity is in high demand.

Ok good thinking, then the expensive items should be on high demand in anarchy systems... maybe that would be better.

And I agree that system security forces are lacking punch at the moment. They need a big boost IMO.

 

[xkjacob]

Ok good thinking, then the expensive items should be on high demand in anarchy systems... maybe that would be better.

And I agree that system security forces are lacking punch at the moment. They need a big boost IMO.

ED Dev team is already making NPC more umphy. They have more difficult than AI built already.

If you make it demanded in anachy systems how will a pirate with tanked reputation buy it outside an anarchy system.

Or are you trying to make the most awesome protection less trap for regular traders ever?

Side note. Trader exploit.
Trading builds Rep. Trader goes to solo mode. Trades best commodity in game becomes allied, trades with no danger what so ever.

 

[Sandmann]

OK so as someone who never pays his bounty, I hope you'll allow me to pick your brain.... I've got a bunch of questions for you if you don't mind?

Seriously tho, This idea won't force any pirates to do business in anarchy systems. As someone who never pays his bounty, being always wanted isn't a big deal.

The way bounties are at the moment if I wasn't playing a law abiding goody two shoes I probably wouldn't pay bounties off either, they're pretty ineffective as has been readily demonstrated for the last 12+ months.

Under FD's system you'll be "wanted" for seven days in the system in which you commit an act of piracy (let's assume you "murder" someone, and it's a federal system), then if you're not caught it'll degrade to a fine for a further seven days, then I believe it'll degrade further to a dormant fine. You'll still be able to dock in that system you're wanted in as long as you're not scanned (so platforms in that system will be NO problem, and stations only a minor one). You're also gonna be free to go anywhere else you like with no problems and no bounty.

- Will that make you any more likely than now to pay your fine (if you make it past the delayed bounty)?
- Will it make it less likely for you to commit crimes?

Given the exact same crime under my system you'll be wanted in EVERY federally controlled system, and both stations AND platforms in those systems will refuse you docking permission guaranteed (so no re-arming, refueling, reloading, repairing etc at any federal station or platform) and will fire on you if you're in range. This will last for seven days, after which it goes back to FD's system of a fine for seven days, then a dormant fine.

- Would this make you less likely to commit murder if a less lethal alternative was available and effective?

The cops are inept

Agreed. 101%. They need beefing up, but they also need to be smarter.

One thing I didn't like sandmans idea of requiring playtime to remove bounties. It should be one or the other, Not both. Since real time is already in place(with mission and bouties) that seems the better choice.

Can you tell me why? Did you understand that I meant the seven days real time AND the 12 hours (or whatever, that number's not writ in stone) play time could be done CONCURRENTLY.. ie: if you play for at least 12 hours during the seven days, that's all it is? It only becomes 7 1/2 days if you become a fugitive then don't play for a week, or if you get the status in open then play in solo for a week. It's about not only getting the punishment but actually FACING the music.

- With that in mind, do you still disagree with it?
- If so, why so?
- If this was enacted, would it be more likely to make you choose a non-lethal crime over a lethal one, if the tools were available to you?

An emp will be too powerful and be used by killers as well as pirates.

Yeah it doesn't have to be an EMP... I don't pretend to be a gaming tool deviser, that's up to others to design. I'm just saying that pirates (and bounty hunters too I guess) NEED those tools to make sure piracy remains viable (and more viable than now). If we're gonna have strong disincentives for murder, we also need strong incentive to NOT murder. It can't be all stick, gotta have a carrot too. Also any piracy tools would have to work like shield cells where there's a purchase price and limited uses (ammunition of some sort), and require some sort of skill (eg: weapons) or have a deficit (eg: the wait period for shield cells). You couldn't just put in an insta-kill item.

Remember too, using the "stop the ship tool" (whatever it ends up being called) would not in itself be a crime... it would only be a crime when you exceeded the Friendly Fire threshold and started hooting up the ship (piracy charge, 2 days bounty) or destroyed the ship (murder, 7 days fugitive). This would give you time to threaten or deal with the target WITHOUT them running away and convince them to drop cargo WITHOUT committing a legal crime, but you'd still have all your other options available to you too if the trader chose to not cooperate. (obviously this would work better if they can fix combat logging too).

The better solution would be to just have shooting out the drives bring the ship to a halt. It will still be used by killers but it's avoidable with some fancy flying. It also requires some careful shooting by the pirate instead of a single button press.

That would still be an option, but of course that then gets into automatic criminal offences.

- Given all that do you think pirates in general would be more likely to
--- a: try the "stop the ship tool" and convincing the trader (possibly getting away getting the loot without committing a crime)?
--- b: go directly for piracy with assault straight up (possibly getting away with the loot with only a two day bounty)?
--- c: go directly for piracy with murder straight up (definitely getting a seven day fugitive status)?

(Obviously we're generalising a lot here, just seeking your opinion.)

Murder is also a tool for piracy, or at least threat of murder is. If you take away that tool it becomes harder to "convince" players to drop cargo.

Yep, but the belief of most traders that the pirate will still murder them if they drop loot stops a lot of traders cooperating, because they know there's no real loss for the pirate to destroy them, and probably no gain for them to cooperate. For the threat of murder to work, they not only have to believe that you can and will do it, but ALSO that you WON'T kill them if they cooperate.

- Do you think that traders etc would be more likely to believe that a pirate will actually let them go if they drop loot if they know there's a very harsh penalty for murder and the trader's stuck there for a while?

Penalties for murder over theft/assault should be harsh, but not too harsh(ala eve's instakill cops). Murder is as much a tool in the pirates belt as limpets are.

No, insta-gibs are bad policy. They're a sledge hammer for a walnut. Not good game.

 

[xkjacob]

god I love reading sandman's posts.


--- a: try the "stop the ship tool" and convincing the trader (possibly getting away getting the loot without committing a crime)?
"stop the ship tool" - La Sandman
Interidictor for hyper space, shoot their FSD in normal space or just mass lock them with a large ship like a Clipper.
It is like this stuff was put in the game and he has no idea it is there.
It is still a crime to pick up the cargo dropped. Those are illegal stolen goods.
He doesn't appear to know that either.

--- b: go directly for piracy with assault straight up (possibly getting away with the loot with only a two day bounty)?
--- c: go directly for piracy with murder straight up (definitely getting a seven day fugitive status)

"- Would this make you less likely to commit murder if a less lethal alternative was available and effective?" -La sandman
Then a non-lethal way to get cargo, it is called shooting their cargo hatch.
He doesn't know that either.

"If we're gonna have strong disincentives for murder, we also need strong incentive to NOT murder" - La Sandman
Oh oh and there is a penalty for murder. It is called reputation reduction and killing lowers it quite a bit.
Lowering our reputation has a whole slew of negative effects too and is not a minor offence.
It also has levels of infractions based on how far you go so lesser offenders don't have such a penalty.

It is like the DEVs designed reputation to work hand in hand with its justice/enforcement system in a truly brilliant manner.

Side note this thread has given me more Rep than any other thread i've ever been in and all i've done is discuss the actual existing game mechanics that other people don't understand how they work or don't know they exist.
I edited to clarify what I am talking about in La Sandman's post. He has me on ignore, so it should bring no offence to him.
Brilliant!

 

[xkjacob]

Now for a serious post.
Y'all are super struggling with a couple concepts.

Why is pirating so awful at making money?
- Seriously!
Okay here it is. If you pirate there is little financial incentive and lots of start up costs.

- You cannot make illegally acquired trade goods sell for too much more on the black market or we would just take our Type 9s and on a back and forward trade route dump our cargo and swap cargo making our cargo illegal.
That makes a strong limiter on the high price of illegal goods, because it is easy circumvented and done by regular traders faking pirating.
- There isn't a strong incentive to even kill people, that motivation comes from within.
No bounties on regular people, you can't carry nearly any of their cargo and it really isn't worth it when you could be making 40k CR a minute with a type 7. This is more an enthusiast sport.

But what about penalties! we can make people not kill us with penalties!
- No probably not. You can make people not kill you by playing in group or solo. Pretty simple.
- If you choose to "tag" someone as a pirate you'll actually see people dedicate themselves instead of being weekend warriors, because they can't take their T9 out for trading.
- This would raise net amount of pirating.
- Pirating is also a valid gameplay style. So, limiting it is basically saying trading is more important and it isn't.
- Without the 'fear' and immersion of piracy this is just another SIM game.

here is some stuff that would have been cool to talk about.
1. bounties being tied to specific ships so you can't just buy a sidewinder and clear your bounty by crashing, or having a minimum ship amount balance effect the bounty.
2. if the new bounties last 7 days what if you die on the first day?
- this would either mark someone who is wanted who has 0 bounty, which makes no sense at all or would make for an amazingly farmable bounty system when I rake up millions in bounties and let me friends kill me over and over to generate revenue.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

OK so as someone who never pays his bounty, I hope you'll allow me to pick your brain.... I've got a bunch of questions for you if you don't mind?



The way bounties are at the moment if I wasn't playing a law abiding goody two shoes I probably wouldn't pay bounties off either, they're pretty ineffective as has been readily demonstrated for the last 12+ months.

Bounties are effectively the risk/reward gameplay for piracy. Pay off your fines, lower profits but less chance a cop or bounty hunter will ruin your day. Don't pay of your bounties, you're always wanted but you make more money. It's basically the pirate version of shields or more cargo space traders ask themselves.

Under FD's system you'll be "wanted" for seven days in the system in which you commit an act of piracy (let's assume you "murder" someone, and it's a federal system), then if you're not caught it'll degrade to a fine for a further seven days, then I believe it'll degrade further to a dormant fine. You'll still be able to dock in that system you're wanted in as long as you're not scanned (so platforms in that system will be NO problem, and stations only a minor one). You're also gonna be free to go anywhere else you like with no problems and no bounty.

I believe there only 2 stages to the new system, Bounty and legacy fine, which you can pay off. The dormant fines are for when you get killed before your time is up(but your bounty wasnt collected) crashing into a wall or self destructing. If you get scanned in the system where you have a dormant, it'll go active again starting the process over.

- Will that make you any more likely than now to pay your fine (if you make it past the delayed bounty)?
- Will it make it less likely for you to commit crimes?

Neither system(yours, FDs) is effecting the risk/reward of piracy. They just make it so you can't pay one off for 7 days. I already don't do that anyway so i dont see why i would start now.

Given the exact same crime under my system you'll be wanted in EVERY federally controlled system, and both stations AND platforms in those systems will refuse you docking permission guaranteed (so no re-arming, refueling, reloading, repairing etc at any federal station or platform) and will fire on you if you're in range. This will last for seven days, after which it goes back to FD's system of a fine for seven days, then a dormant fine.

- Would this make you less likely to commit murder if a less lethal alternative was available and effective?

The only thing that will make me only do non-lethal piracy is if it was more lucrative than lethal piracy. If i made more money off the goods of players, i didnt kill then ones i did, well that would be a pretty big reason to not kill. If the police response on players i killed was quicker, than ones i shot up, well i'd be dumb to kill then too.

Can you tell me why? Did you understand that I meant the seven days real time AND the 12 hours (or whatever, that number's not writ in stone) play time could be done CONCURRENTLY.. ie: if you play for at least 12 hours during the seven days, that's all it is? It only becomes 7 1/2 days if you become a fugitive then don't play for a week, or if you get the status in open then play in solo for a week. It's about not only getting the punishment but actually FACING the music.

Simplicity sake mostly, having 2 different counters for a bounty is confusing to new players. It also effects people differently. 12 hours might be 2 weeks to some, or one day to another. Their playtime may vary, but 7 days is seven days to everyone. If someone who plays open and kills people, is then forced to stop playing or play solo for a week, that's a win. open is free from their killing for a week, the system works.

- If this was enacted, would it be more likely to make you choose a non-lethal crime over a lethal one, if the tools were available to you?

Yeah it doesn't have to be an EMP... I don't pretend to be a gaming tool deviser, that's up to others to design. I'm just saying that pirates (and bounty hunters too I guess) NEED those tools to make sure piracy remains viable (and more viable than now). If we're gonna have strong disincentives for murder, we also need strong incentive to NOT murder. It can't be all stick, gotta have a carrot too. Also any piracy tools would have to work like shield cells where there's a purchase price and limited uses (ammunition of some sort), and require some sort of skill (eg: weapons) or have a deficit (eg: the wait period for shield cells). You couldn't just put in an insta-kill item.

Remember too, using the "stop the ship tool" (whatever it ends up being called) would not in itself be a crime... it would only be a crime when you exceeded the Friendly Fire threshold and started hooting up the ship (piracy charge, 2 days bounty) or destroyed the ship (murder, 7 days fugitive). This would give you time to threaten or deal with the target WITHOUT them running away and convince them to drop cargo WITHOUT committing a legal crime, but you'd still have all your other options available to you too if the trader chose to not cooperate. (obviously this would work better if they can fix combat logging too). That would still be an option, but of course that then gets into automatic criminal offences.
[/QUOTE]
I was calling it an emp just for simplicity's sake, whatever it ends up being it still has the same effect. It's not really a fair weapon and it will be used for bounty hunting and murder just the same. A weapon where i press a button and bring your ship to a halt is a dangerous tool.

Anything intended for non lethal piracy will be used for lethal attacks just the same. that's why i suggested when drives reach 0% the ship slows down. It will allow limpets to be used and cargo stolen and the person can always reboot their drives and get away.

Also i don't see a "stop the ship tool" being able to be a non bounty weapon. especially when you can use it then ram someone to death while they cant escape. All for no bounty or wanted status.

- Given all that do you think pirates in general would be more likely to
--- a: try the "stop the ship tool" and convincing the trader (possibly getting away getting the loot without committing a crime)?
--- b: go directly for piracy with assault straight up (possibly getting away with the loot with only a two day bounty)?
--- c: go directly for piracy with murder straight up (definitely getting a seven day fugitive status)?

It would depend on how effective limpets are with it. Limpets are the weak point in any talk about non lethal piracy. Limpets are too slow(which will be solved by a "stop the ship tool") take too long to use, drop cargo too slowly, and don't force enough cargo to drop. The tool doesn't do much to solve the other 4 problems. unless It keeps someone in place for ~40 secs i don't see it being a better option than just "asking", repeatedly, and with weapons.

(Obviously we're generalising a lot here, just seeking your opinion.)

Yep, but the belief of most traders that the pirate will still murder them if they drop loot stops a lot of traders cooperating, because they know there's no real loss for the pirate to destroy them, and probably no gain for them to cooperate. For the threat of murder to work, they not only have to believe that you can and will do it, but ALSO that you WON'T kill them if they cooperate.

- Do you think that traders etc would be more likely to believe that a pirate will actually let them go if they drop loot if they know there's a very harsh penalty for murder and the trader's stuck there for a while?

I don't see that changing without some incentive to not kill a complying trader comes up. Maybe traders can only willingly abandon cargo but if he dies within 10 minutes of dropping, it reverts to stolen.

I would also say buff limpets and make destroyed drives halt a ship. That along with cargo drones would make non lethal piracy more viable and preferred, against targets that outright refuse to drop any cargo.

 

[xkjacob]

Jordan Cobalt!
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/2qsldj/piracy_with_limpets
Limpet's are pretty easily evaded. Just turn your cargo door off.
I wouldn't hinge any pirating gameplay strategy around them until that isn't the case.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Now for a serious post.
Y'all are super struggling with a couple concepts.

Why is pirating so awful at making money?
- Seriously!
Okay here it is. If you pirate there is little financial incentive and lots of start up costs.

- You cannot make illegally acquired trade goods sell for too much more on the black market or we would just take our Type 9s and on a back and forward trade route dump our cargo and swap cargo making our cargo illegal.
That makes a strong limiter on the high price of illegal goods, because it is easy circumvented and done by regular traders faking pirating.
- There isn't a strong incentive to even kill people, that motivation comes from within.
No bounties on regular people, you can't carry nearly any of their cargo and it really isn't worth it when you could be making 40k CR a minute with a type 7. This is more an enthusiast sport.

But what about penalties! we can make people not kill us with penalties!
- No probably not. You can make people not kill you by playing in group or solo. Pretty simple.
- If you choose to "tag" someone as a pirate you'll actually see people dedicate themselves instead of being weekend warriors, because they can't take their T9 out for trading.
- This would raise net amount of pirating.
- Pirating is also a valid gameplay style. So, limiting it is basically saying trading is more important and it isn't.
- Without the 'fear' and immersion of piracy this is just another SIM game.

here is some stuff that would have been cool to talk about.
1. bounties being tied to specific ships so you can't just buy a sidewinder and clear your bounty by crashing, or having a minimum ship amount balance effect the bounty.
2. if the new bounties last 7 days what if you die on the first day?
- this would either mark someone who is wanted who has 0 bounty, which makes no sense at all or would make for an amazingly farmable bounty system when I rake up millions in bounties and let me friends kill me over and over to generate revenue.

Piracy is so awful at making money because;

The tools sucks, limpets are weak and don't scale well. at most they drop 10 tons of cargo slowly over 15 secs doesn't help you fill a 128 capacity clipper very quickly does it?

Combat logging is so prevalent, if you're pirating ships with any cargo worth stealing, a large portion of those players will combat log.

Scooping takes too long, spending 6 mins to scoop 8 tons across 7km of space is terrible. It's even worse for 20 tons that someone drops, that takes about 8 mins and if you're not quick enough it could despawn. hopefully drones will do a lot to make this quicker but until then, it's still worth noting.

Cargo despawns, You finally did it, you found a type 9, he didn't combat log, he was intimidated so he dropped 50 tons of gold for you. Good luck scooping it all before it disappears, my personal best was 30.

- - - Updated - - -

Jordan Cobalt!
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/2qsldj/piracy_with_limpets
Limpet's are pretty easily evaded. Just turn your cargo door off.
I wouldn't hinge any pirating gameplay strategy around them until that isn't the case.

Yea, you can also turn flight assist off and then, rotate so the limpets cant latch on. That's always fun when you encounter someone who knows that.

They need a buff in general, so does shooting out the cargo hatch. I tend not to use either until i take out the drives, and they have cargo worth scooping over 7km of space. usually gold or paladium.

It's way easier to just "ask" and then if they refuse, "ask" again when their ship is near dead. If they don't fork over a reasonable amount of cargo, well then they'll be reflecting on their decision at the insurance screen.

 

[xkjacob]

I almost wish they made it so we got 25% of the cargo by obliterating them, so people wouldn't just sour and let us kill them.
Almost everyone I chatted with were[masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you]about it and refused to drop anything.
My record for cargo is 0 and I killed everyone who I pulled over for refusing my polite inquiry.

It is silly to me. When I trade in my ship I don't do it in open because there is no advantage.
I honestly don't know why so many people complain about it in open, I mean don't you know better?
Currently there is no benefit, so don't do it.

Until illegal / stolen / illicit cargo gets figured out better, a financial incentive comes along to enhance my prey's survivability, and generally speaking it is more fun (somewhat boring sometimes) I dunno it is awful.
I mean I trade with my type 7 instead of pirating. Mind numbing jr space whale is more exciting, (no shields!) than pirating was.

My current goal is to trade up to an FDL join our other 3 and basically 4 FDL wing clearing RES / hyperspace / conflict zones of players.
Just some recreational fun until the changes come in. Until then i'm trading, in closed, because there is not advantage in open.

 

[Sandmann]

OK thanks for the answers... some bits in there surprised me, I must say. Mind if I ask a few more?

Bounties are effectively the risk/reward gameplay for piracy. Pay off your fines, lower profits but less chance a cop or bounty hunter will ruin your day. Don't pay of your bounties, you're always wanted but you make more money. It's basically the pirate version of shields or more cargo space traders ask themselves.

I get what you mean here about the risk vs reward... but are you also telling me that it wouldn't be preferable/desirable to have less or no bounty?

I believe there only 2 stages to the new system, Bounty and legacy fine

Yah I believe you're right... though the difference between dormant and legacy is mostly semantics in this case.

Neither system(yours, FDs) is effecting the risk/reward of piracy. They just make it so you can't pay one off for 7 days. I already don't do that anyway so i dont see why i would start now.

So you wouldn't find the inability to dock at any station in that major faction for a week to be an imposition? If you were already a federal fugitive, would you take the risk of going to imperial systems to pirate and become one there too? Or are there so many independents, anarchies, and alliance ones that it would be a non-event? Would you continue to pirate in the federal systems if you knew it would extend the fugitive status?

The only thing that will make me only do non-lethal piracy is if it was more lucrative than lethal piracy. If i made more money off the goods of players, i didnt kill then ones i did, well that would be a pretty big reason to not kill. If the police response on players i killed was quicker, than ones i shot up, well i'd be dumb to kill then too.

So you don't consider bounty hunters to be a potential financial cost?

Simplicity sake mostly, having 2 different counters for a bounty is confusing to new players. It also effects people differently. 12 hours might be 2 weeks to some, or one day to another.

Fair enough. How do you feel about being held to the same play mode as you did the crime in then? Eg: if you did it in open you could only play in open till the seven days expired? Or how would you feel about it ONLY being a certain number of play hours in that game mode, but no real time limit?

I was calling it an emp just for simplicity's sake, whatever it ends up being it still has the same effect. It's not really a fair weapon and it will be used for bounty hunting and murder just the same. A weapon where i press a button and bring your ship to a halt is a dangerous tool.

Very dangerous if it acts like that. What about if it only disabled the FSD though, while still allowing normal flight, combat, etc, and it cost a significant amount per shot, only allowed you three shots, and drained your shields similar to silent running? Would that make it a more balanced tool?

Anything intended for non lethal piracy will be used for lethal attacks just the same. that's why i suggested when drives reach 0% the ship slows down. It will allow limpets to be used and cargo stolen and the person can always reboot their drives and get away.

Yah my idea wasn't to STOP taking out the engines, but to offer another way as well, that would potentially end up with zero crimes AND be more effective.

Also i don't see a "stop the ship tool" being able to be a non bounty weapon. especially when you can use it then ram someone to death while they cant escape.

Again, what if it had the above restrictions?

It would depend on how effective limpets are with it. [/quote] I hadn't spoken about limpets as I was lumping them in with "tools need to be created/improved", but yes limpets need to be "fixed" and I think they'd go along nicely with the EMP.

I don't see that changing without some incentive to not kill a complying trader comes up.

I can't really see any way to have you make more money from not killing a target... but I can see ways of having you NOT LOSE as much, or any, by not killing them. Is that of value to you?

Like you said earlier.. murder IS a tool of pirates. So is assault, and threat. I certainly don't intend to take these from them... just to also offer other alternatives that have lesser consequence for both pirate and victim. Right now piracy is almost always violent because you have NO CHOICE. I want to see pirates offered choices.

 

[xkjacob]

I genuinely get the feeling most people posting these long exerts want simply not to have to incur the cost of insurance for a new ship.
I mean i've posted time and time again, you are in the wrong place, there are so many remedies, but no all we hear is change this and change that.
The sad part is these internet short stories aren't in line with any development concepts FD has.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7261&page=10&p=147803#post147803
Straight from them. Most likely this will all be managed through reputation. In 1.3 a more fleshed out game will be available and by then players wanting this will either quit or use the remedies they have always had available.
The crime changes we are discussing are more a fix for bounty hunting than a punishment for pirating. FD likes having bad guys.
They do not want to kill that career. If bad guys kill you, so be it.

 

[Vasious]

I read all the Original Post but not all the 13 pages that followed.
Hopefully the Interstellar bounties would work in the way Fugitive would as you describe, and the localised bounties encourage a "crossing the boarder" style of play from the Pirates and Bounty hunters.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I get what you mean here about the risk vs reward... but are you also telling me that it wouldn't be preferable/desirable to have less or no bounty?

Of course, less bounty is good and no bounty is better, but that only matters when you can pay it off. A 1cr bounty means the same a 1milcr bounty. It means you have that little wanted sign under your name so everyone can and tries to kill you.

Under your system assaults will be 3 days wanted status, murder would be 7. Those numbers only matter when you stop pirating. As long as i keep doing it, it makes no difference, I'm still wanted. The thing the about nonlethal piracy is, you always have to be non lethal, one slip up and you're now a fugitive.

How will that work anyway?

If I'm wanted for a few assaults in a system but i kill, will the assault bounties get added? will they be on 2 separate timers? Will they get added together or paid separately? What if i commit another assault after 6 days of being a fugitive? will my time be reset to 7 days, or 3? will i still retain fugitive status even tho I haven't killed for the full 7 days?

So you wouldn't find the inability to dock at any station in that major faction for a week to be an imposition? If you were already a federal fugitive, would you take the risk of going to imperial systems to pirate and become one there too? Or are there so many independents, anarchies, and alliance ones that it would be a non-event? Would you continue to pirate in the federal systems if you knew it would extend the fugitive status?

That's not really an issue, since there is probably an independent/anarchy system or station within 15ly, of any system, in the game. If i need repairs/ammo i'm sure i could find a place within 1 or 2 jumps. I already need anarchy system or station with a black market close-by to fence my goods, I can repair there if i need to as well. The worst part would be finding an independent high tech system to upgrade my ship/modules.

There's not too many reasons why you would need to get into a specific station in a specific system. It might prevent pirates from pirating in a rare good system, if they plan to do a run soon, but i don't see that being a common thing. So worst case, you have to do a little traveling if you want to upgrade your ship/modules. It's a minor inconvenience

So you don't consider bounty hunters to be a potential financial cost?

Bounty hunters aren't that much of a nuisance, at least now that I'm in a fully upgraded clipper. If i was an old beat up asp, I might think differently. Also if we get an fsd inhibitor, it might make wings of cobra bounty hunters a threat.

Fair enough. How do you feel about being held to the same play mode as you did the crime in then? Eg: if you did it in open you could only play in open till the seven days expired? Or how would you feel about it ONLY being a certain number of play hours in that game mode, but no real time limit?

While it doesn't effect me at all (I always play in open no matter what I'm doing), I'm not really a fan of the idea. forcing one profession to stay in one game mode doesnt seem equal to me. I'm an all or nothing kinda guy. Either eveyone should be allowed to switch modes at will or noone should be allowed to switch at will(like a save locked to a game mode).

Also it would only effect killing players right? I dont want to get stuck in solo for a week because i killed an npc, or group for a week because i killed a friend in our private group. Even if it was only open i wouldn't be a fan of it. Not for punishment reasons(like i said it wont effect me) but for fairness reasons.

Very dangerous if it acts like that. What about if it only disabled the FSD though, while still allowing normal flight, combat, etc, and it cost a significant amount per shot, only allowed you three shots, and drained your shields similar to silent running? Would that make it a more balanced tool?
Yah my idea wasn't to STOP taking out the engines, but to offer another way as well, that would potentially end up with zero crimes AND be more effective.

Again, what if it had the above restrictions?

I do like the idea of an fsd inhibitor, I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten one yet. It seems like a very obvious tool.

By draining shields you mean the person who uses it right? That would definitely make it unusable for bounty hunters. It would also make it a use sparingly tool for piracy as well. Trade ships will suffer greatly, while multirole ships who are properly equipped, will bring the hurt against a pirate with no shields.

I can't really see any way to have you make more money from not killing a target... but I can see ways of having you NOT LOSE as much, or any, by not killing them. Is that of value to you?

It's of value to me, in the sense I'd do it to avoid losing money. If it was something like, kill your target and get less for stolen cargo, I wouldn't kill unless i had to, since it effects my bottomline. I'd rather something that rewarded non lethal piracy than punished lethal piracy.

I already suggested, Traders can only abandon cargo(which sells for full price and is not illegal) but if they die within 10 mins the cargo reverts to stolen. That would encourage pirates to get a trader to willingly give up cargo, and then not kill or they lose money. The trader on the other hand knows the pirate loses money if he kills, so he has more incentive to keep you alive, thus you can trust he wont kill.

Like you said earlier.. murder IS a tool of pirates. So is assault, and threat. I certainly don't intend to take these from them... just to also offer other alternatives that have lesser consequence for both pirate and victim. Right now piracy is almost always violent because you have NO CHOICE. I want to see pirates offered choices.

If Non lethal piracy was close to as profitable as the kind where occasionally someone dies, i'd switch pretty quickly. I might even start over just to have a character that never kill, kind of like the batman of piracy.

I even start out like that, when i got to an asp. I realized limpets wont get as much cargo as if they drop it. Then that quickly fell to the wayside. I learned sometimes you have to steal the cargo, sometimes you have to ask and kill if they refuse. So you're right non lethal piracy doesn't work, at least not if you want to make money(or as much as you can with piracy)

 

[Troa Barton]

The entire system they're proposing is just too complicated and like the OP said it doesn't target whom it's aimed at.
just change it to where if an action you physically take kills another commander then it counts as murder.
that way ramming counts for what it is.
while on the topic of ramming if you commit murder in the no fire zone of a station it should open up on you.

secondly just make murder a larger offense all on its own.
If you murder someone you get a large bounty that doesn't go away until it's cashed in by a player or npc. No taking the easy way out and offing yourself.
tie it to the type of ship that commited the crime. If you die in another ship it turns into an unclearable fine, this cannot be circumvented by rebuying your anaconda. If you commit murder in an anaconda it won't go away until you're killed in an anaconda. If that fine gets kill warrant scanned its reissued as a bounty while claimable it still will not absolve you unless you're in the type of ship you commited the crime in.

Make all other bounties clearable as they are now, this is in place to allow piracy true piracy where non lethal is actually the aim. While also not dragging in the rest of the player base that simply made a mistake. It would also add a distinction between the other more ruthless pirates that will hold up on the second half of the demand. "Your cargo or your life"
piracy will need more non lethal tools at their disposal after this change in order to make non lethal more viable.

this change would make griefers a target of bounty hunters since their bounty is unclearable giving legitimacy to either of the play styles.

lastly the murder bounty needs to be greatly increased. If someone in an anaconda goes around killing people what's the incentive to go after one in your own when you won't make much off his head. There's no incentive to kill someone with a 1million credit bounty in an anaconda with a rebuy of 20-30 mill. Especially after the time investment in finding the guy in the first place. Even a vulture can have a higher rebuy than the bounty on a serial killer.

 

[Sandmann]

Of course, less bounty is good and no bounty is better, but that only matters when you can pay it off. A 1cr bounty means the same a 1milcr bounty. It means you have that little wanted sign under your name so everyone can and tries to kill you.

Under your system assaults will be 3 days wanted status, murder would be 7. Those numbers only matter when you stop pirating. As long as i keep doing it, it makes no difference, I'm still wanted. The thing the about nonlethal piracy is, you always have to be non lethal, one slip up and you're now a fugitive.

How will that work anyway?

If I'm wanted for a few assaults in a system but i kill, will the assault bounties get added? will they be on 2 separate timers? Will they get added together or paid separately? What if i commit another assault after 6 days of being a fugitive? will my time be reset to 7 days, or 3? will i still retain fugitive status even tho I haven't killed for the full 7 days?

That's [not being able to dock at stations is] not really an issue, since there is probably an independent/anarchy system or station within 15ly, of any system, in the game. If i need repairs/ammo i'm sure i could find a place within 1 or 2 jumps. I already need anarchy system or station with a black market close-by to fence my goods, I can repair there if i need to as well. The worst part would be finding an independent high tech system to upgrade my ship/modules.

There's not too many reasons why you would need to get into a specific station in a specific system. It might prevent pirates from pirating in a rare good system, if they plan to do a run soon, but i don't see that being a common thing. So worst case, you have to do a little traveling if you want to upgrade your ship/modules. It's a minor inconvenience

Bounty hunters aren't that much of a nuisance, at least now that I'm in a fully upgraded clipper. If i was an old beat up asp, I might think differently. Also if we get an fsd inhibitor, it might make wings of cobra bounty hunters a threat.

So... you'd concede then that you're speaking as a pirate who's closer to the "top end of town" than "just starting off", and that for someone who doesn't have a nicely buffed Imp Clipper and actually fears bounty hunters (pc or npc) and doesn't have the jump range that you do that these changes might have a much greater impact, and that they might be much more interested in committing acts of piracy that would reduce or preferably eliminate bounties and fugitive status? At the very worst, you personally are no worse off under this system than under FD's proposed system, and quite possibly in some ways better off.

To answer your questions, obviously I'm no dev and can't lay down laws, everything here is just suggestions and ideas, however...
The way I'd see it working is that each penalty would actually have two values (hidden from the player of course)... a primary one (7/2/0 days delay for a major/minor/petty offence plus a monetary figure which would be your bounty value/legacy fine/regular fine) and a secondary one which would be additive... so if you had a bounty outstanding with say 30 hours left on it and a value of 20k, but it might only have an additive value of 22 hours, meaning that if you then committed a murder you'd get the 7 days plus the monetary value for that, plus the monetary for the existing bounty, plus the additive of 22 hours so you'd actually LOSE 8 hours from it... but in the same case if there was only 8 hours left on it you'd GAIN 14 hours. I'd do this because you don't want people in the situation of having fugitive statuses that are going to last forever that they feel they can never get over, but equally one shouldn't wipe the other one out completely either. It's all about remembering what you're after... you're trying to give people reasons to not commit murder - if you make them too desperate they have nothing to lose. Also, re the "one slip and you're a fugitive" remember that assault, piracy etc would be minor crimes and would only give you the bounty status, not the fugitive... which is the same local bounty as FD's now... and only for 2 days. This is still because we don't want to push people who are trying to be non-lethal into having no reason to avoid it. Of course there'll ALWAYS be some who WANT to do it and won't care, you can't change everyone, but you can change a good number of them if they have good reasons for it and that's fine coz this is about reducing but not eliminating the risk. There should always be SOME risk.

While it doesn't effect me at all (I always play in open no matter what I'm doing), I'm not really a fan of the idea. forcing one profession to stay in one game mode doesnt seem equal to me. I'm an all or nothing kinda guy. Either eveyone should be allowed to switch modes at will or noone should be allowed to switch at will(like a save locked to a game mode).

Oh it wouldn't be just one profession... it'd be ANYONE who commits a murder and ends up a fugitive. Bounty hunters with itchy trigger fingers... aggro miners who can't find a rock with paladium... traders who've gone stir crazy and start ploughing into sidewinders with their T9's, etc.

I'm interested though.. if the fugitive/bounty idea went ahead, obviously one of the consequences is greater/longer exposure to bounty hunters... so how would you solve the problem of people committing murders in open then going to solo to "do their time" away from the PC hunters?

Also it would only effect killing players right? I dont want to get stuck in solo for a week because i killed an npc, or group for a week because i killed a friend in our private group. Even if it was only open i wouldn't be a fan of it. Not for punishment reasons(like i said it wont effect me) but for fairness reasons.

Oh no you wouldn't get stuck in solo, you could always move "up" a play mode, just not "down". So if you did it in open you'd have to play in open till it was worked off. If you did it in a group you'd have to play in THAT PARTICULAR group, or in open. If you did it in solo, you could play anywhere. It's about facing the music IN the mode in which you did it. Also as I think I mentioned in the original post, one of the improvements that I'd want (and haven't talked about much) is that creators of groups could disable certain levels of crime within that group, that there'd be no crime between wingmates, and that individual players could have much finer control over what crimes against themselves their ships reported, which would allow consensual PvP wherever and whenever you liked, as long as you were careful not to clip any "innocent bystanders".

I do like the idea of an fsd inhibitor, I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten one yet. It seems like a very obvious tool.

By draining shields you mean the person who uses it right? That would definitely make it unusable for bounty hunters. It would also make it a use sparingly tool for piracy as well. Trade ships will suffer greatly, while multirole ships who are properly equipped, will bring the hurt against a pirate with no shields.

Yep, it'd be a shield drain for the aggressor. I like that as a limitation A LOT, because it makes sense that a device like an EMP would use a lot of energy quickly and you wouldn't want to pull it from your engines or weapons. It also (as you pointed out) would make it problematic for bounty hunters (which is fair enough, since that's really a profession about combat and they're ALLOWED to kill the target there). It'd also mean it'd be a lot more effective to arm trading ships... right now there's no point coz trying to use a T7's weapons just makes you a target for longer... but if a viper or eagle etc is shield-less for a minute or so then a quick FA Off boosted turn and raking the aggressor with a pair of multi-cannons and maybe an attempt to ram is - while still not a HUGE threat - at least a bit more viable (especially since they've got nothing else to do while waiting for their FSD to reboot if they choose to retaliate instead of submitting). Multi-roles SHOULD fair better against pirates than trade ships of course... it's the trade off for having less cargo space but still running cargo.

It's of value to me, in the sense I'd do it to avoid losing money. If it was something like, kill your target and get less for stolen cargo, I wouldn't kill unless i had to, since it effects my bottomline. I'd rather something that rewarded non lethal piracy than punished lethal piracy.

I already suggested, Traders can only abandon cargo(which sells for full price and is not illegal) but if they die within 10 mins the cargo reverts to stolen. That would encourage pirates to get a trader to willingly give up cargo, and then not kill or they lose money. The trader on the other hand knows the pirate loses money if he kills, so he has more incentive to keep you alive, thus you can trust he wont kill.

I can appreciate that point of view... everyone would prefer to gain a win than avoid a loss, but I think for it to actually be a meaningful consequence it needs to be both carrot AND stick... a reward if they live, and a punishment if not. Just thinking about how to arrange your idea (abandoned cargo becoming stolen etc)... how about this? Another tool to help piracy be non-lethal AND help traders trust pirates is giving traders the ability to activate a proximity detonator on dropped (and abandoned) cargo... so that if the cargo is dropped and the trader then dies within 5km of it the cargo explodes? That way it's actually in the pirate's best interest to see that the trader gets away into SC before picking it up, so it doesn't explode in his hold. If the trader gets away the pirate picks up the cargo and sells it at full price. Not an idea that I've thought about and polished, just off the top of my head.

I think there's ways to make this work for almost everyone.. and other than not shooting as many people it would actually add more depth to the game, as people would have to think and negotiate instead of just blazing away on the first occasion. Another thing I've just realised would be needed (coz I've been thinking mostly about open mode, player on player) is that NPC's would have to get a LOT smarter, you'd need to be able to send them canned responses and get simple decisions from them rather than the meaningless scripted dialogue we get now.

 

[willowfan]

I genuinely get the feeling most people posting these long exerts want simply not to have to incur the cost of insurance for a new ship.
I mean i've posted time and time again, you are in the wrong place, there are so many remedies, but no all we hear is change this and change that.
The sad part is these internet short stories aren't in line with any development concepts FD has.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7261&page=10&p=147803#post147803
Straight from them. Most likely this will all be managed through reputation. In 1.3 a more fleshed out game will be available and by then players wanting this carebear land will either quit or use the remedies they have always had available.
The crime changes we are discussing are more a fix for bounty hunting than a punishment for pirating. FD likes having bad guys.
They do not want to kill that career. If bad guys kill you, so be it.

Mentioning carebears when countering an argument about crime and punishment (or anything else for that matter) is the Elite equivalent of Godwin's Law (imo).

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

So... you'd concede then that you're speaking as a pirate who's closer to the "top end of town" than "just starting off", and that for someone who doesn't have a nicely buffed Imp Clipper and actually fears bounty hunters (pc or npc) and doesn't have the jump range that you do that these changes might have a much greater impact, and that they might be much more interested in committing acts of piracy that would reduce or preferably eliminate bounties and fugitive status? At the very worst, you personally are no worse off under this system than under FD's proposed system, and quite possibly in some ways better off.

Well I don't know how new bounty hunter ships handle in a fight. When I was just starting out the bounty hunter ships were the eagle, viper, and python. I've never encountered a Vulture or fdl in anything less than my clipper.

Oh it wouldn't be just one profession... it'd be ANYONE who commits a murder and ends up a fugitive. Bounty hunters with itchy trigger fingers... aggro miners who can't find a rock with paladium... traders who've gone stir crazy and start ploughing into sidewinders with their T9's, etc.

Only one profession has to attack, and possibly kill(clean cmdrs at least) to do their job. Traders don't have to ram, bounty hunters don't have to shoot first, miners don't have to go on a killing spree. Pirates have to attack, and even if they dont intend to kill, it happens. I've killed plenty of people who I didn't intend to.

I'm interested though.. if the fugitive/bounty idea went ahead, obviously one of the consequences is greater/longer exposure to bounty hunters... so how would you solve the problem of people committing murders in open then going to solo to "do their time" away from the PC hunters?

Like I said in my last post. I don't think criminals switching to solo is a problem. It's a win in my book. The murderer is away from others and can't commit anymore murderer. It's basically a self imposed prison sentence. Even if you could guarantee a player will die if he stays in open, I still think it's worse to lock yourself away. The rebuy cost isn't cheap but being locked away is worse.

I can appreciate that point of view... everyone would prefer to gain a win than avoid a loss, but I think for it to actually be a meaningful consequence it needs to be both carrot AND stick... a reward if they live, and a punishment if not. Just thinking about how to arrange your idea (abandoned cargo becoming stolen etc)... how about this? Another tool to help piracy be non-lethal AND help traders trust pirates is giving traders the ability to activate a proximity detonator on dropped (and abandoned) cargo... so that if the cargo is dropped and the trader then dies within 5km of it the cargo explodes? That way it's actually in the pirate's best interest to see that the trader gets away into SC before picking it up, so it doesn't explode in his hold. If the trader gets away the pirate picks up the cargo and sells it at full price. Not an idea that I've thought about and polished, just off the top of my head.

I think ten minutes is better than 5km, but that's personal preference.

I think there's ways to make this work for almost everyone.. and other than not shooting as many people it would actually add more depth to the game, as people would have to think and negotiate instead of just blazing away on the first occasion. Another thing I've just realised would be needed (coz I've been thinking mostly about open mode, player on player) is that NPC's would have to get a LOT smarter, you'd need to be able to send them canned responses and get simple decisions from them rather than the meaningless scripted dialogue we get now.

Agreed npcs do need to get smarter. They also need to carry better goods. If npcs were actual viable targets it would take some of the burden off of player traders. Some people would still only attack players, but the other ones might be inclined to vary it up.