One of the main reasons I'm a defector

[SAB380]

I don't really want to cause too much controversy, and I hope people can take this with a grain of salt... but there are some serious issues with some of the community at SC... and I am a big SC backer.

This.... it's safe but.. scary

You obviously weren't here when we spent a month discussing TheBraben's sweater.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

this is what happens when you live in the centre of the universe called AMERICA...
it may suprise you, there are other countries in the world, and they do actually function.

That was really uncalled for, let's keep it on topic, there are huge SC community in Germany, how would you explain that? Simply while Elite was influential, Frontier: Elite II didn't do so well abroad (as being more difficult and less accessible game). Also nineties saw rise of importance of advertising for games, so it flew completely under radar for many youngsters, while WC saw full blown advertising and interactive movie with real actors!

 

[SAB380]

This is mostly due to Elite being a British franchise and most of the marketing for it being focused on Europe (it was originally released for the BBC Micro, after all). Most American gamers have never heard of it. To us, WC was the first space game to have a major impact.

Its because Elite came way before Wing Commander and the gaming market was much smaller.

Elite is legendary everywhere but only to gamers of a certain age. Really the early adopters of video games. One of those was Chris Roberts in America. And he obviously wasn't the only one in America.

I'm in Australia and anyone playing home computer games in 1984 was playing Elite.

People know Wing Commander more because video games had expanded massively by 1990 when it launched ...and in 1994 Wing Commander 3's huge budget and legit movie stars meant it was an enormous success.

 

[Tinman]

That was really uncalled for, let's keep it on topic, there are huge SC community in Germany, how would you explain that? Simply while Elite was influential, Frontier: Elite II didn't do so well abroad (as being more difficult and less accessible game). Also nineties saw rise of importance of advertising for games, so it flew completely under radar for many youngsters, while WC saw full blown advertising and interactive movie with real actors!

True, but I must say this though, because I've been thinking about it for a while.

I remember playing both Elite/Frontier/FFE and the different WC games. However it's a rather big difference of what I remember from these two "camps".

When I think back on the Elite series of games I remember the gameplay itself. I remember the mystery, how mind-blowing huge these games felt and having the feeling that I could do anything and go anywhere.

When I think back on the WC games I remember how cool it was that "Luke Skywalker" was in the game!! I remember how it felt like I was in a sci fi movie and that was awesome. But...I don't really remember that much of the game itself...it's mostly just cutscenes that pop up in my head. Hmmm...

Even if I will play both games I guess I know why my heart always will be here with ED.

 

[Shishakli]

Elite is legendary everywhere but only to gamers of a certain age. .

Don't believe this is true. Legendary in Australia (probably due to our gaming magazines being St format and pc format, and our schools also had beebs) but here in Canada, no one I know has a clue about elite. Just like they've never heard of del amitri, also never heard of Elite.

This is the crux of ED's low exposure

 

[huwthomas]

Its because Elite came way before Wing Commander and the gaming market was much smaller.

Elite is legendary everywhere but only to gamers of a certain age. Really the early adopters of video games. One of those was Chris Roberts in America. And he obviously wasn't the only one in America.

Oddly enough he was in the UK; he grew up in Manchester and according to his Wikipedia entry he didn't return to the USA until 1986, a few years after Elite came out. Who knows, if the teenage Roberts had not been living in the UK he might never have seen Elite and the gaming world might have been different...

 

[huwthomas]

When I think back on the Elite series of games I remember the gameplay itself. I remember the mystery, how mind-blowing huge these games felt and having the feeling that I could do anything and go anywhere.

I didn't play them all, but don't Chris Roberts games tend to (always?) have fixed jump routes, as opposed to the open jump capability of Elite? I think that, and not just procedural generation, leads to the huge vs limited feeling.

 

[Tinman]

I didn't play them all, but don't Chris Roberts games tend to (always?) have fixed jump routes, as opposed to the open jump capability of Elite? I think that, and not just procedural generation, leads to the huge vs limited feeling.

Yes. Rooms in space...the bane of space sims!!

"Ooooh...I want to go there!"

"Ok, but you'll have to go through these 5 systems to get there."

"Why!? The star is just over here...it would be much faster if I just went straight..."

"Yeah, that might be, but this is the way we connected the jumpgates. Can't do anything about it kid!"

I realize that doing jumpgates has it's pros since that creates a meeting area in the game, but I can never get around the feeling that I'm travelling around in a subway system below ground with that kind of travel system. Which is kind of the opposite of...you know...space.

 

[huwthomas]

I realize that doing jumpgates has it's pros since that creates a meeting area in the game, but I can never get around the feeling that I'm travelling around in a subway system below ground with that kind of travel system. Which is kind of the opposite of...you know...space.

Exactly, it's like being limited to where the rails/stations are vs driving an all-terrain car

 

[Mephane]

I realize that doing jumpgates has it's pros since that creates a meeting area in the game, but I can never get around the feeling that I'm travelling around in a subway system below ground with that kind of travel system. Which is kind of the opposite of...you know...space.

Let's face it, jump gates, fixed zones in space etc. all exist because technologically they are extremely simple to implement, especially with static planets, space stations etc. A seamless game world with completely free movement is always much more difficult to pull off, hence many games are (sadly) divided into areas separated by tight connections coupled with loading screens.

 

[robbiec]

I don't really want to cause too much controversy, and I hope people can take this with a grain of salt... but there are some serious issues with some of the community at SC... and I am a big SC backer.

This.... it's safe but.. scary

It is just the typical type of forum hyperbole you experience on that side of the pond. To them CR is Enzo Ferrari and DB is just a garigista from somewhere called England . I always though WC was a bit overrated especially compared to X-Wing, but saying that Privateer was a good effort and more Elite like while its successor, Freelancer basically kept me in the genre for the last 9 or 10 years.

 

[rgb_astro]

I didn't play them all, but don't Chris Roberts games tend to (always?) have fixed jump routes, as opposed to the open jump capability of Elite? I think that, and not just procedural generation, leads to the huge vs limited feeling.

Privateer 1 and 2 had random encounters (in form of distress calls) with storyline and trading in between episodes when you had to get some credits to upgrade equipment.

Freelancer and Starlancer had some openness as well (in terms of not having to stick to plot), but I didn't enjoy them for long as I've started playing X series -- I liked the unrestricted (compared to FL) world and empire building.

 

[SAB380]

Oddly enough he was in the UK; he grew up in Manchester and according to his Wikipedia entry he didn't return to the USA until 1986, a few years after Elite came out. Who knows, if the teenage Roberts had not been living in the UK he might never have seen Elite and the gaming world might have been different...

ha I didn't know that.

 

[Sarum]

It is just the typical type of forum hyperbole you experience on that side of the pond. To them CR is Enzo Ferrari and DB is just a garigista from somewhere called England . I always though WC was a bit overrated especially compared to X-Wing, but saying that Privateer was a good effort and more Elite like while its successor, Freelancer basically kept me in the genre for the last 9 or 10 years.

I really wish people would stop with all the national stereotyping. Don't you think it's a bit unseemly? I'm sorry to have (unintentionally) started it.

FYI, I am an American, and think Braben is far more credible than Roberts as I explained a couple of pages back.

 

[Cody]

I really wish people would stop with all the national stereotyping. Don't you think it's a bit unseemly?

<nods>

 

[Alpha Protocol]

why do people think space sim began with WC,... this was just roberts copying elite...
he's lived off the back off copying elite the whole time; and the younger generation have no clue.

Elite was THE original sandbox space sim game.. IT all started here; sandbox wasnt even a term, no-one knew at the time what to classify the game as.

I actually think he was paying homage to Elite when he said "sandbox first". At least that's how I read it; still, you're right, I'm 46 and never heard of Elite until later. We played a lot of space games at arcades and on console. My family couldn't afford a computer at that time, that was out of the question... But I always loved space games. Chris Roberts games were my first real "space sims".

I want SC to do well. My wife and I are both backers, and we bought accounts for our sons. I have a real problem with the community though, and it's only gotten worse. I find myself becoming cynical and derisive when I spend more than five minutes there. It's not a healthy place at times. I really like it here. I can appreciate you all, and have no sense of ill will or distaste.

I'm excited about ED. I'll continue to look forward to SC and hope the very best.

the centre of the universe comment was aim squarely at dumb americans. I have been there many times, and was ask once but an intelligent gentleman in an elevator, where australia is?
many cant even read a map if its not shaped like the USA !
dont get me wrong; i have many US friends, but i also see many stupid-folk who live in a box called the USA.

Hey, I think I know them... my neighbors

I'm American and while my chest swells with pride for some of the history and achievements that are uniquely American... this place is full of idiots.

Cheers!

 

[Cody]

... this place is full of idiots.

The land of E Pluribus Unum, you mean? Don't worry - there are plenty of idiots this side of the pond too.

 

[robbiec]

I really wish people would stop with all the national stereotyping. Don't you think it's a bit unseemly? I'm sorry to have (unintentionally) started it.

FYI, I am an American, and think Braben is far more credible than Roberts as I explained a couple of pages back.

Apologies, meant to classify that as hyperbole you see especially on forums on that side of the pond. I see it a lot in photography forums as well, in an English forum, someone might say that they think they have an issue with a camera for example, other forum users will ask for example shots and pretty much pinpoint what the issue is (normally it is the user ), however sometimes it may be the equipment itself and the OP will be given the closest best camera repair outfit, with the telephone number, website and sometimes the person to speak to. Now on the American forum... the OP will say he has an issue, next thing you know there is a raft of similar complaints slowly but surely winding up into a frenzy with talks of class action or mass moves to another system , what i'm trying to say is that what is acceptable on a US forum in the form of 'venting' might be classed as overly exaggerated in the UK.

As to it being unseemly? not really, I'm just stating what I've observed. Your original link with the picture showing 'in CR we trust' kinda wraps it all up in a ribbon for me as an example of pure hyperbole

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally

 

[Ref Minor]

True, but I must say this though, because I've been thinking about it for a while.

I remember playing both Elite/Frontier/FFE and the different WC games. However it's a rather big difference of what I remember from these two "camps".

When I think back on the Elite series of games I remember the gameplay itself. I remember the mystery, how mind-blowing huge these games felt and having the feeling that I could do anything and go anywhere.

When I think back on the WC games I remember how cool it was that "Luke Skywalker" was in the game!! I remember how it felt like I was in a sci fi movie and that was awesome. But...I don't really remember that much of the game itself...it's mostly just cutscenes that pop up in my head. Hmmm...

Even if I will play both games I guess I know why my heart always will be here with ED.

This.
In MMO terms, ignoring Buggy-ness, Elite was SWG whilst Wing Commander was SWTOR. In the former you are thrown into a world and left to make your own way however you chose and in the other you are mostly limited to following a story arc along a predetermined path with lots of flash and polish along the way and only a few side trips.

For me I prefer the 100c and a sidewinder approach where the universe is my oyster .

 

[Cosmos]

Call me a grumpy stick in the mud.. but can we just talk about Elite on these forums?

I've no particular problem with there being a game called SC. However, I am not going to sugar coat this.. I don't like Roberts.. I find him obnoxious and arrogant and he strikes me as a used car salesman.. I am not interested in his games. If I was I would go to the SC forums and talk about it there.

Why the endless requirement to raise that game here? There is a thread in the offtopic section where people can talk about it to their hearts content.