Supercruise "uncontrolled acceleration" seems unintuitive

[Cazliostro]

I've been playing for about a month now and I love the game! I played the original Elite on a C64 btw - it's so nice to see the space sim make a comeback! I appreciate that a lot of the game design is focused on making the player focus on control of the ship under all circumstances. I understand this is why we don't have autopilot like EVE or the minimalistic throttle controls of a more arcade-y sim like X-Wing. Nonetheless, I am still baffled by the implementation of supercruise mode as it is now. I thought after a month or so I would get an intuitive grasp of it, and even if I couldn't describe what I was doing that I would at least be doing it right by now - which is not the case.

I understand that supercruise is a superluminal mode of transit which is affected primarily by two factors: the thrust of the ship and the proximity of mass to the ship, such as stations, other ships, planets and stars. I can set the throttle and - depending on my distance from the nearest significant mass - my ship will go very fast.

I know that the outer band shows the maximum speed possible based on current gravitational forces, the middle band shows actual speed, the inner blue band shows optimal maneuverability speed ranges and the bar with diamond shows the desired throttle setting. All good? All good.

So here is what I don't understand: Why do I lose all control of my ship's velocity when I am "coming in too fast" to rendezvous with a station or planet? Why, in fact, do I speed up even when I set my throttle to zero well outside the gravity well of the planet I am approaching? This is very counterintuitive to me. What is my ship reacting to when it accelerates on its own?

It seems to me that, if I am approaching a planet and I want to slow down, I should be able to cut my throttle to zero (or very low, like 25%) and aim for a point very close to the planet. That way, when I get close, the planet's gravity well will "catch" me and drain away all the speed I have set past my throttle mark! Heck, if any kind of Newtonian physics applies in supercruise (not sure if it does or not) I should be able to use the planet's gravity to slingshot around it while decelerating, which would be an awesome way to line up on a station!

If the point of not having autopilot or computer-aided navigation (astrogation?) is to make the player/pilot an active agent in every aspect of the ship's controls then the movement of the ship needs to make sense from the perspective of the poor monkey in the capsule wiggling the stick. I know all about the 7 seconds / 75% throttle trick and the 100% to 0% with a loop trick and I can make it all work (obviously - because I'm still playing) ...but I just don't understand what is causing my ship to accelerate and/or move at speeds which don't match my throttle settings and don't seem to be the result of nearby gravity wells!

 

[TiberiuS]

Yeah, that's also something I don't really understand and I'm with you there.

Fact is that other bodies of mass prevent you from accelerating/decelerationg fast, which is why you overshoot if you are too fast too close to a planet. You have to turn around and fly away from the BOM to decelerate and then turn in on it again. Not sure if this is really intended or just speed should be limited.
I'd also love to see slingshots around planets but gravitational pull on your ship doesn't seem to be modeled. (You can 'sit' in the corona of the star to fuel scoop. Even if you're in 'normal space' you don't get pulled towards the body of mass, which is a pity imo. It could be really interesting.)

Speed in SC doesn't depend on the mass of your ship or it's thrust. Afaik all the ships are equally fast in SC. There is NO difference between them.

 

[CMDR Darkler]

One thing that *might* help was if the real-time heat graph was replaced / had in addition one showing gravimetric sheer or something similar ...

 

[Frog]

Well, it's not true that you are accelerating when coming in too fast, you are just not slowing down fast enough. You can see your speed dropping all the time even when you overshoot the target.

That is not to say that this makes sense, though. SC is supposed to be a folding of space-time around the ship, not movement in a newtonian or relativistic sense. So having inertia in SC is nonsense. If the limit for this folding of space-time is gravity of other objects, you should just get stopped automatically when you close in on them.

But hey, pressing the button you assigned for 75% throttle at the right moment at least gives you something to do, right?

 

[Agarthan]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145317&p=2238158&viewfull=1#post2238158

I've noticed the flight assist in supercruise is definitely quirky. When you choose a destination point and lock the computer calculates a general speed range you should be traveling for that distance from the object and it then sets your optimal speed maneuverability range and your top speed accordingly. Where it gets weird and what I think OP is trying to point out is that several times in the deceleration process the auto flight will suddenly drop the optimal range, one is around 100ls, then they compound from there, the computer then says, 'your speed rate is too fast for the current trajectory to target' and then the ship careens past the target, this happens even if your over all speed and throttle were just barely a hair over the optimal range when it has one of those sudden drops. This makes absolutely no sense especially when your initial speed is that small of an amount and you are still dealing with dozens of light seconds or more of space between you and the object still. Essentially the computer is forcing your careen past the target and that is stupid. OP thinks it's a bug but I think it may be intentional and it's incredibly stupid if it is.

and guess what? I already figured out a way to skirt it if it is intentional, it also proves it's the stupid flight computer that is doing it too. If you start to careen out of control veer away from the target destination enough that it leaves your ships scan reticule space, your drive will immediately begin to decelerate and you can readjust right back at your target without ever passing it up.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=144475&p=2224709#post2224709

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

In supercruise you are not travelling at all! Well, sort of. We have a frame shift drive. The lore is that the drive faffs about with spacetime - it creates a bubble that travels very fast, but the ship within the bubble does not travel at all - only the ship does. Gravity affects the FSD's ability to move fast, and the closer you are to a big gravity well, the slower it can move.

 

[CYB34]

Added difficulty, to make you take your time in supercruise and give pirates a chance

 

[Cazliostro]

Well, it's not true that you are accelerating when coming in too fast, you are just not slowing down fast enough. You can see your speed dropping all the time even when you overshoot the target.

I must respectfully disagree. I have on many occasions reduced my speed to zero, the throttle indicator shows zero, and seen the actual speed of the ship increase! This has been in very close proximity to planets, which, if their gravity well is having any effect at all, should be causing me to decelerate! I just don't inderstand why this is happening.

 

[Agarthan]

In supercruise you are not travelling at all! Well, sort of. We have a frame shift drive. The lore is that the drive faffs about with spacetime - it creates a bubble that travels very fast, but the ship within the bubble does not travel at all - only the ship does. Gravity affects the FSD's ability to move fast, and the closer you are to a big gravity well, the slower it can move.

That's what a warp drive does. it creates a 'subspace' where the ship exists and the warp field bubble is compressed and stretched to make the object move through space not in space.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

 

[Zplintz]

There is no uncontrolled acceleration in SC.

The issue is leaving the deceleration too late so you overshoot your target. Slow down earlier.

I must respectfully disagree. I have on many occasions reduced my speed to zero, the throttle indicator shows zero, and seen the actual speed of the ship increase! This has been in very close proximity to planets, which, if their gravity well is having any effect at all, should be causing me to decelerate! I just don't inderstand why this is happening.

Min speed in SC is 30m/s so where are you seeing zero speed?

Not once in the game have I set my throttle to zero and had my speed increase.

 

[Cazliostro]

There is no uncontrolled acceleration in SC.

The issue is leaving the deceleration too late so you overshoot your target. Slow down earlier.



Min speed in SC is 30m/s so where are you seeing zero speed?

Not once in the game have I set my throttle to zero and had my speed increase.

Huh. Honestly - it's like we're playing different games. It happens to me all the time. I get close to my target, set the throttle to zero (I know it only goes down to 30) - then the speed of the ship increases as I shoot past my target! If I knew how to make a video of this I would!

 

[Markoz]

I must respectfully disagree. I have on many occasions reduced my speed to zero, the throttle indicator shows zero, and seen the actual speed of the ship increase! This has been in very close proximity to planets, which, if their gravity well is having any effect at all, should be causing me to decelerate! I just don't inderstand why this is happening.

I thought a gravity well "pulls" you toward the body, so maybe you are speeding up as you head towards it, and you slow down after passing it.

Mind you, that doesn't seem to be true in Elite: Dangerous, I slow down due to a gravity well, regardless of whether it's in front me, or behind me! Or atr least that seems to be the case for me, as I can't find any other object that might be causing me to slow down when headed towards the object. :/

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Huh. Honestly - it's like we're playing different games. It happens to me all the time. I get close to my target, set the throttle to zero (I know it only goes down to 30) - then the speed of the ship increases as I shoot past my target! If I knew how to make a video of this I would!

When you say "the speed of the ship increases", do you mean that the speed reported on the numeric display in light-speeds or Mm/s increases, or do you mean that the speed bar on the right of your scanner fills up more? (The former I'd really like to see a video of if you can figure it out, but the latter is normal)

The speed bar on the right of your scanner is not on a fixed scale, but one relative to your surroundings. As you approach the planet/target, your "ideal" speed decreases, and the speed bar changes scale to show this better. (This is essential - the bar can show speeds up to 2001c: if it didn't change scale you'd spend almost all of the time with it pinned to zero - even on a logarithmic scale it'd spend a lot of time in the lowest few sections and be completely useless for actual ship control)

If you are not decelerating quickly enough, then your "ideal" speed will be decreasing faster than your actual speed, and so the size of the speed bar will increase to show that your speed is now more faster than desired than it previously was, even though both your desired speed and actual speed have decreased. In this situation, fairly quickly the speed bar will go off the top of the throttle range, to show that you are now travelling faster - due to initial inbound speed - than it would normally be possible for you to accelerate from a standing start in this gravitational environment.

 

[Nikonthenet]

Must admit I agree, its annoying and feels 'fake'. Its really weird because if you don't target the drop point, none of the effects, affect the ship. Target the drop and BAM, your affected.

The best way to avoid the speedup is to watch the countdown timer. When that reaches 7, put your throttle at the middle of the blue band and leave it there and your ships computer will manage the approach. You can get away with 6, however, if you hit 5 for a length of time, you will over shoot.

To add insult to a really rather cheap feature, the 'slow down' visual alert only appears after you pass the point of being able to slow down.

 

[Petersen]

I must respectfully disagree. I have on many occasions reduced my speed to zero, the throttle indicator shows zero, and seen the actual speed of the ship increase! This has been in very close proximity to planets, which, if their gravity well is having any effect at all, should be causing me to decelerate! I just don't inderstand why this is happening.

It's not the speed you're seeing increase. If you're not looking at the number, you're looking in the wrong place. The 'speed bar' is measured relative to the 'proper speed' to reach your target. If it's above the blue, you're probably going to have problems. I don't even look at that bar any more, I look at 'time to target' and try to keep it around 6 seconds, because less always makes me over shoot, and more just takes longer.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The best way to avoid the speedup is to watch the countdown timer. When that reaches 7, put your throttle at the middle of the blue band and leave it there and your ships computer will manage the approach. You can get away with 6, however, if you hit 5 for a length of time, you will over shoot.

That's the easiest way to avoid the speed up, certainly. If you're going for quick travel, it's not necessarily the best. I tend to decelerate at about 4 seconds, and only to the top of the blue band, not the middle. Gets me in quicker, and I only overshoot through occasional piloting error.

(Also, manually controlling the spiral trajectory needed to make this work is considerably more fun than watching the 75% autocruise follow its linear course painfully slowly, so it's win-win...)

 

[babelfisch]

Huh. Honestly - it's like we're playing different games. It happens to me all the time. I get close to my target, set the throttle to zero (I know it only goes down to 30) - then the speed of the ship increases as I shoot past my target! If I knew how to make a video of this I would!

Looks like your throttle is broken. I have the sane issues with my X52, just add a dead zone in the config.

 

[Nikonthenet]

Ian, interesting!! Spiral trajectories at 4 seconds you say...I will try that out, sounds fun!

The only trick I'd found for fast approach is; as soon as your distance indicator is less than 2 bars from the green zone, full throttle. It will alert 'slow down', but the gravity will do the rest and by the tim you reach the drop point your speed wll be in the green and 'safe to drop'.

 

[Luniticisi]

I think an idea is to change "Slow Down' to 'Overshoot' or 'Too Fast' (or something like that)

 

[Cazliostro]

When you say "the speed of the ship increases", do you mean that the speed reported on the numeric display in light-speeds or Mm/s increases, or do you mean that the speed bar on the right of your scanner fills up more? (The former I'd really like to see a video of if you can figure it out, but the latter is normal)

The speed bar on the right of your scanner is not on a fixed scale, but one relative to your surroundings. As you approach the planet/target, your "ideal" speed decreases, and the speed bar changes scale to show this better. (This is essential - the bar can show speeds up to 2001c: if it didn't change scale you'd spend almost all of the time with it pinned to zero - even on a logarithmic scale it'd spend a lot of time in the lowest few sections and be completely useless for actual ship control)

If you are not decelerating quickly enough, then your "ideal" speed will be decreasing faster than your actual speed, and so the size of the speed bar will increase to show that your speed is now more faster than desired than it previously was, even though both your desired speed and actual speed have decreased. In this situation, fairly quickly the speed bar will go off the top of the throttle range, to show that you are now travelling faster - due to initial inbound speed - than it would normally be possible for you to accelerate from a standing start in this gravitational environment.

Okay, that makes sense. It must be that I'm watching the bars shoot up like a cartoon thermometer in a fire whereas what I should be looking at is the actual, factual speed in numbers next to it... I will use science when next I game. Thank you!